[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Mr. Froggy]

There is a fundamental difference between a 5/6 Tarmogoyf and a 6/7 Tarmogoyf and it's called Lightning Bolt, when you're playing games instead of theory crafting the problem of "bigger Goyfs" comes up when they're clearing the board with Rough/Tumble etc. and racing your life total.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this?

Do you mean they swing with Goyf then shoot our face with Bolt?

If they were able to swing at least 3 times at you without chump blockers, there is something really wrong. Every time I play vs Goyf, I've never run into this problem. I'd even go so far to say that its one of the least of my worries since all it is is a huge Grizzly Bear.

[Michael Keller]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this?

Do you mean they swing with Goyf then shoot our face with Bolt?

If they were able to swing at least 3 times at you without chump blockers, there is something really wrong. Every time I play vs Goyf, I've never run into this problem. I'd even go so far to say that its one of the least of my worries since all it is is a huge Grizzly Bear.

It really is. Tarmogoyf is the least of our problems, which I feel have been addressed.

[aznxlarry]

I just thought of something cute to put into the deck. What about trying Ruric Thar, the Unbowed? The turn he comes down any response from the opponent would have to be some sort of spell ie plowshare. Or what I'm trying to say is, it stuns them for a turn as they try and get rid of it. Any thoughts?

[Holly]

Well .. lets assume I play a creature in this deck.
Also lets assume I only want this creature to be a DR target.
So..why would I want this DR target to be a creature which super-shocks the opponent instead of killing him (via Spy (of which I'm not a fan) or Griselbrand)?
Spy kills in 100% of the DR cases.
Griselbrand kills in 100% of the cases in which you have enough life (let's say 10+ to be bolt proof) and some more since most of the time he itself is enough to win.

Oh and they're both black for Ichorid..you know..just in case.

In which scenario would I want another creature like Ruric Thar?
I must'be at a low life total, be able to DR and no target which could help be beside him?
Uhm..
To put it simple..no.
There's NO way he could improve ANY matchup.. like.. NO nothing.


Well sure.. if you're
<7 life
and playign a sub par choice
and be able to DR something
and a huge Troll or Chancellor of the Annex are not enough
yeah.. in this case the Ogre could help you.. but come on..

Oh and there should be no such thing as another more useful target even in these really small extraordanary examples like Iona..


to make it short.. no.
Really..no..there's no way. Not a single one. Zero. None. At. All. Not any way at all that I'd play Ruric over Iona, Spy, Grisel, FKZ, Flayer, Sphinx, Leviathan, Elvish Warrior, Mon's Goblin Raider, Vizzerdrix or Chub Toad.

[Mindlash]

Well .. lets assume I play a creature in this deck.
Also lets assume I only want this creature to be a DR target.
So..why would I want this DR target to be a creature which super-shocks the opponent instead of killing him (via Spy (of which I'm not a fan) or Griselbrand)?
Spy kills in 100% of the DR cases.
Griselbrand kills in 100% of the cases in which you have enough life (let's say 10+ to be bolt proof) and some more since most of the time he itself is enough to win.

Oh and they're both black for Ichorid..you know..just in case.

In which scenario would I want another creature like Ruric Thar?
I must'be at a low life total, be able to DR and no target which could help be beside him?
Uhm..
To put it simple..no.
There's NO way he could improve ANY matchup.. like.. NO nothing.


Well sure.. if you're
<7 life
and playign a sub par choice
and be able to DR something
and a huge Troll or Chancellor of the Annex are not enough
yeah.. in this case the Ogre could help you.. but come on..

Oh and there should be no such thing as another more useful target even in these really small extraordanary examples like Iona..


to make it short.. no.
Really..no..there's no way. Not a single one. Zero. None. At. All. I would play Ruric over Iona, Spy, Grisel, FKZ, Flayer, Sphinx, Leviathan, Elvish Warrior, Mon's Goblin Raider, Vizzerdrix or Chub Toad.

What about Mindslicer ;) If there is one creature to DR its him because of the flavor ;)

[Michael Keller]

Still working on the primer.

[Mr. Froggy]

Can't wait to read it. :)

[meffeo]

Short report of last lgs tourney

Vs Canadian

I win the first game after destroying my opponent's hand with multiple therapies, dread return for grisi -> flayer -> ggt.
Game 2 my opponent plays a cage in the early and I was without counter.
Game 3, my oppo has few lands and just one flipped delver. Therapies and ichorids for the win.

1-0

Vs Sneak & Show

I lose the first game because of an early s&t to emrakul.
Second match: I'm full of bridges in gy, play a gitaxian and see a hand full of counters but I'm too fast and decide to follow the tokens path.
Game 3: oppo plays gitaxian and see a griselbrand (I've kept a not great hand just because of griselbrand). He decides to play s&t and we both reveal a griselbrand. In his eot I pay 7, dredge x7: gy full of ichorids and board already full of tokens and narcos.
I attack with everything, oppo to 8, I 20. In his turn he pays 7, goes to 1, plays a sneak attack for emrakul and swings for 22.

Biggest mistake: I've could kept at least one narco on defense OR pay 7 to draw 7 and dig for some fows to counter his sneak attack (I was left with 20 cards in library, it means that the fows were there).

1-1

Vs Uwr Delver

First game I'm without bridges, oppo with flipped delver, two sfm and a jitte.
Game 2 ichorids and token for the win.
Game 3 I keep a hand with shoal, fow, probe and some dredgers. Oppo land delver go, I draw another fow, discard dredger, go. He plays rip, I play fow, he plays fow, I play fow (hilarious). I win after some minutes with many tokens.

2-1

Vs Canadian

I win the first thanks to the flayer.
Game 2: my notes say 17-13-dead. I think he played a cage with daze backup.
Game 3 was a long match. I remember that I've played a dread return targetting a chancellor, just to try to stop his delver and take some time. He plays dismember in his main phase to kill my chancellor but... She's a 5/6! Gg

3-1

Some considerations

I've seen quite always a phantasmagorian in first hand, one of the greatest card that this deck could (ab)use. I remember vs canadian, he plays t1 drs, I discard phantasmagorian after drewing another one and discard the 2nd: drs annulled.

I like so much the fows, they're unaspected and really much mure stronger than the green sideboard (also because people think that dredge plays at sorcery speed).

Against uwr my oppo named dread return with his meddling mage but they were sided out with the whole combo package (grisi, flayer and dr's) to insert fows and shoals.

Keep dredgin' guys.

[Michael Keller]

I remember vs canadian, he plays t1 drs, I discard phantasmagorian after drewing another one and discard the 2nd: drs annulled.

What concoction is that mess? Deathrite Shaman in Canadian Threshold?

[Thrasher]

I guess it was burg, it's basically canadian that splashes for DRS.

[Final Fortune]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this?

Do you mean they swing with Goyf then shoot our face with Bolt?

If they were able to swing at least 3 times at you without chump blockers, there is something really wrong. Every time I play vs Goyf, I've never run into this problem. I'd even go so far to say that its one of the least of my worries since all it is is a huge Grizzly Bear.

Like I said, the problem with theory crafting is that you rarely take into account what happens when opponents play hate. Wait until your Bridge from Belows are exiled by Surgical Extraction or your board is swept by Rough/Tumble and then you'll be asking yourself why you played a card that gave Tarmogoyf +1/1 over a card that didn't. Unless we're cutting Dredgers for Serum Powder, I don't think Serum Powder is any better than any other card we could play in the ~8 slots up for discussion and those ~8 cards don't give Tarmogoyf +1/1. It's not a damning reason not to play Serum Powder by any means, but personally I just don't think the added consistency is worth the decreased resiliency by cutting Shambling Shell and the card isn't significantly better than the alternatives.

When you're grinding it out vs hate, it can matter tho'. I've dropped two games in tournament play to 6/7 Tarmogoyfs that I didn't need to lose.

Right now I'm just on the Chancellor of the Annex and Gitaxian Probe MD in order to play the Force of Will SB because I think it's our best chance vs Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace. Being inadverdently good vs Storm is a plus, but it finally feels like the MD and the SB are actually addressing problems now instead of just playing whatever pointless ~8 card flavor of the month just for shits and giggles.

[Mr. Froggy]

The thing is though, I don't theorycraft.

I play vs Goyf pretty often on MTGO, and spoke from my experiences.

[Michael Keller]

So at this point, is it safe to assume most of us are on board with the counter plan?

Basically ceding to a resolved Cage/Rest in Peace?

[Slag]

So at this point, is it safe to assume most of us are on board with the counter plan?

Basically ceding to a resolved Cage/Rest in Peace?

I've always lost to a resolved RIP, myself, so it's a bold step forward one way or another. Against cage, there have been a couple of instances where I was able to hardcast creatures with dakmor salvage, so there's a small measure of hope if you run ghasts.

[Mr. Froggy]

So at this point, is it safe to assume most of us are on board with the counter plan?

Basically ceding to a resolved Cage/Rest in Peace?

I guess that works both ways, I like having an answer to it either way.

[jimmythegreek]

Excited for the shoals and fows in the board. Does it make sense to to run blue dread return targets to up the blue count? If i understand correctly we remove the combo pieces to add the counter package, in which case grisebrand would be better than say kelpie or the sphinx?

[meffeo]

Excited for the shoals and fows in the board. Does it make sense to to run blue dread return targets to up the blue count? If i understand correctly we remove the combo pieces to add the counter package, in which case grisebrand would be better than say kelpie or the sphinx?

I wouldn't run blue dread return's targets. You play narcos, probes + fows and shoals, there's enough blue pitches imho.

Usually I follow the "guidelines" that Thrasher wrote some posts ago, check them.

[Final Fortune]

So at this point, is it safe to assume most of us are on board with the counter plan?

Basically ceding to a resolved Cage/Rest in Peace?

I don't think removing Rest in Peace was ever a reliable strategy, provided I'm not disregarding Rest in Peace entirely I don't really see any other consistent alternative to the FoW plan.

I'm a little iffy on Disrupting Shoal tho', I haven't gottten that to work yet - how much does it increase the chances of countering RIP for the 4 slots it takes up? I've been thinking there may be other, higher impact cards we could play in really bad match ups like Reanimator and just rely on Force of Will and Mind Break Trap to counter Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage and support the blue count regardless of whether or not it's a dead card.

Another idea that might work is Foil. I know it sounds ridiculous, but Foil discards instead of exiles so it can counter Grafdigger's Cage and put a dredger into the graveyard immediately. Considering the odds we were taking on Reverent Silence at 7 Forests and 4 Reverent Silence, 7 islands and Foil isn't anymore unrealistic. I don't think it's better than Disrupting Shoal vs Rest in Peace, but I'd laugh my ass off if I got to actually troll a tournament with a SB of 4 Force of Will, 4 Foil and 7 Island. I counter your Grafdigger's Cage and Time Walk, suck it!

[Thrasher]

Trolling with Foil would be hilarious! What i didn't like about it when i was looking for a backup for Force is the need of islands. One of the things i didn't like about Claim/Silence was the need of Forests in the sb, and it was mitigated by Dryad arbor not being a dead card. Foil, on the other hand, needs 7 islands, which are completely dead cards. Shoal can use narcomoeba and gitaxian as pitches, that's what i like about it.

I have not done calculates about the chances of playing 4 fow/4 fow + 4 shoal, but with shoal it seems to work roughly 50-55% of the times.

EDIT:
Land Grant + Tropical Island + Dryad Arbor + Foil anybody???

[Michael Keller]

Good lord.

Shoal seems to have intrinsic value over Foil out of the board. DS is perfectly viable with eight 2 CMC blue cards and Force of Will capacity - by pitching Force to counter Force.

I've had great luck with Shoal so far; the card's been amazing. The irony of utilizing the most dead of draws in Narcomoeba as being part of the protective equation is actually hilarious.