[Primer] Elves!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Double post

[Julian23]

I prioritize Abrupt Decay over Thoughtseize when it comes to dealing with Jitte. I rather go with 3 Decay 2 TS instead of for example 2 Decay 3 TS.

[AlexF13]

I totally agree with Julian. Being able to deal with Jitte once it has hit the table is very valuable, even if 2 elves have already died. So decay/needle is better than seize in the blade match-up. Thoughtseize is only better vs batterskull, but it is not the blade player primary target and we can deal with it with symbiot/ranger.

PS: first post here, I should have registered so long ago ^^

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So why then only the single Needle?

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[Julian23]

It's another angle of attack that's easy to cast and hits other relevant cards as well; better than any other card I see myself keeping in the maindeck instead.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's another angle of attack that's easy to cast and hits other relevant cards as well; better than any other card I see myself keeping in the maindeck instead.

Right, I meant why just one instead of both?

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[Julian23]

Right, I meant why just one instead of both?

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Because it's not that important. It's just "nice to have" but in most situations, I'd rather draw a creature. I can see myself sideboarding the 2nd one maybe against Esperblade if I perceive their strategical approach the matchup being more about grinding out the lategame than riding a Jitte to victory in the midgame.

[Shagstaman]

Julian, what's your most up to date list looking like? I wanna compare notes before this weekend. Tell me you're not on some crazy ug hornet queen swan song brew...lol!! ;)

Do we think the white splash is worth teeg, sliver, and possibly o-ring? Keeping in mind that teeg wins a lot of matchups if accelerated into (MUD, stax type decks, storm, even omni-tell) Should I ditch my good friend savannah for more generic sb options (k grip, thorn, extra hand disruption)??

also on the subject of lands...I see most people are doing 20, with 10 fetches... I'm running 19 with only 8 fetches (2 arbor, 2 bayou, 1 savannah, 2 forest, 4 cradle) and I still get kinda flooded in some games. 20 seems like it'd make for less mulligans but more dead draws when you need gas in the late game... please slap my hand if this is just wrong.

Thanks all, I can't wait for Sunday!!!
(not much legacy around these parts...)

[Megadeus]

Julian, what's your most up to date list looking like? I wanna compare notes before this weekend. Tell me you're not on some crazy ug hornet queen swan song brew...lol!! ;)

Do we think the white splash is worth teeg, sliver, and possibly o-ring? Keeping in mind that teeg wins a lot of matchups if accelerated into (MUD, stax type decks, storm, even omni-tell) Should I ditch my good friend savannah for more generic sb options (k grip, thorn, extra hand disruption)??

also on the subject of lands...I see most people are doing 20, with 10 fetches... I'm running 19 with only 8 fetches (2 arbor, 2 bayou, 1 savannah, 2 forest, 4 cradle) and I still get kinda flooded in some games. 20 seems like it'd make for less mulligans but more dead draws when you need gas in the late game... please slap my hand if this is just wrong.

Thanks all, I can't wait for Sunday!!!
(not much legacy around these parts...)

I have been testing with 19 as well as 8 fetches and it seems like too few fetches. Remember that dryad arbor and cradle both cannot be used on turn 1

[Shagstaman]

I could easily turn a forest or savannah into fetch and add a fetch in place of fyndhorn...we'll see. It'll depend partly on the source's feedback as well as on the feeling I get from the room during day 1 (I tend to talk a lot of legacy during the standard portion to kinda see what the good players are playing...never affects my deck choice LOL but it can affect my final 75)

[danyul]

Most people are running 20 lands (4 Cradle, 2 Arbor, 10 Fetch, 2-3 Duals, 1-2 Basics) because we are trying to reduce the mulligan percentage. Sure, you increase the probability that your Glimpses will fizzle, or that you will flood out in the midgame, but if you had to mulligan to 4 looking for real lands (not Cradle or Arbor) before the game even starts, then you will likely lose anyway.

You have to draw 7 and hope for a good spell/mana ratio *every single game*. So we have to deal with that manabase distribution no matter what. But you won't lose to mana flooding *every single game*.

You are correct that running more lands may lead to some problems. But we are choosing the lesser of two evils here. And being able to turn some of those excess midgame fetchlands into Dryad Arbors can help mitigate that issue a little bit.

I cut down to GB simply because that 1 Savannah was messing up my manabase. I wanted 20 lands (including 2 basics and 10 fetches) without cutting too many creatures, so something had to give. Losing Teeg hurts a little bit but there are plenty of other combohate options available to us.

[Megadeus]

Caught the end of the stream (hurricaneshand in chat). Rough losing to URW twice in a row. Seems like a bad MU though. Pendelhaven seemed like it would have been alright vs the punishing fire deck. Not a fan of Meekstones or MB Trap however.

[AlexF13]

Oh that was you.
UWR is indeed a pretty bad matchup. Winnable, but definitely tricky.
Julian did not use traps today, and used meekstone once when he shouldn't have.

You can replace traps by thorns or any hate card you prefer. This slot is pretty tweakable I feel like.

[Megadeus]

I'm a fan of the discard as it is less narrow and decent in other match ups.

[Shagstaman]

thanks for the breakdown danyul =)

what do we think about surgical extraction? Seems like it could take care of a few problems for us....punishing fire is on the uptick, reanimator is a huge pain in the butt, and it'd help vs some combo matchups as well as providing a free "peek" prior to therapy in games 2/3. It can also be used on lands, so hitting the loam players' dark depths, tabernacles, etc is a thing.

These are all ideas I've been messing around with the cage in my mind, where I goldfish and try to find outs to otherwise unwinnable situations (since I don't have any real legacy events to play in and I hate modo thus refuse to spend hundreds on a legacy deck for it)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

In general, when is it a good idea to sideboard in Progenitus, i.e, against what kinds of decks or strategies? It's a card we never want to draw but it is a card we frequently board in after game 1. (I know we have a nice list of sideboard strategies, but I'm looking for a discussion of the theory and pragmatics here.) Thanks.

[danyul]

You want to bring in Progenitus when:

1) You think you will have to win with very few creatures on the table (because of removal)
-Punishing Fire decks
-Pernicious Deed decks
-UWR Delver
-Goblins
2) You are facing a deck with no countermagic but enough disruption to sometimes make it difficult to combo
-Maverick
-Death and Taxes
-Jund
-The Rock/Junk

That's just a general rule. I didn't list all the possible decks you would want to bring it in against - this is just off the top of my head. But you just want the inevitability of Progenitus in matchups where you don't think it will be easy to stick 3+ elves and have them survive long enough to make your Hoofswing lethal OR in matchups where you think a Natural Order can resolve uncontested.

However, there are some matchups where the speed of Hoof is preferable to the inevitability of Proggy, even if the opposing deck has no countermagic. Like Affinity for example. They usually can't counter anything, but their clock is relatively fast so in matchups like that I'd stick with the double Hoof configuration.

Edit - I actually don't bring in Progenitus against UWR Delver. I lean on Pithing Needle, Decay, and Meekstone. But I don't think it's a terrible idea vs a deck with that much removal.

[Julian23]

Great explanation, Dan.

Note that I also like siding in Progenitus against Imperial Painter; it kinda acts like a poor-man's Final Fortune that's being casted from your deck and allows to strike them one more time. Because of that, you can sometime tap out aggressively to setup a kill on the next turn while they tap out for Grindstone. Also note that you can do cute tricks like Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize yourself for Progenitus to get even another turn.

Btw, 4-0'ed (8-1 in games) the Legacy DE tonight:
R1: Junk 2-0
R2: Team America 2-1
R3: Esperblade 2-0
R4: Death & Taxes 2-0

Will be streaming on Sunday, potentially both DEs at 4pm and 8pm (CET) with some Mario Kart and other SNES goodies inbetween rounds. Feel free to join us at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian.

[Megadeus]

Will be at the open Sunday :/

I like that explanation about Progenitus though. Sounds right. We fired a legacy 8 man win a box tonight. (I played ANT) The winner was on an old elves list with Regal Force and White for Pridemages. List looked fine though. Finals vs DnT. Seemed like slaughter. They actually just lose to top deck NO for Prog post board. SPirit of the Labyrinth was interesting to see. These two players were testing against each other before the tourney and in the games, the elves player was boarding out 3 Glimpses, a Visionary, and something else. Was he being too mindful of Spirit?

[venice]

Will be at the open Sunday :/

I like that explanation about Progenitus though. Sounds right. We fired a legacy 8 man win a box tonight. (I played ANT) The winner was on an old elves list with Regal Force and White for Pridemages. List looked fine though. Finals vs DnT. Seemed like slaughter. They actually just lose to top deck NO for Prog post board. SPirit of the Labyrinth was interesting to see. These two players were testing against each other before the tourney and in the games, the elves player was boarding out 3 Glimpses, a Visionary, and something else. Was he being too mindful of Spirit?

Against any white deck I would side out 2 Glimpse anyways since most people playing white will bring in Ethersworn Canonist to blank those Thus, boarding the 3rd copy seems totally fine regarding the fact that he also saw multiple Spirits in his opponents deck. VS D&T we are totally on the NO into Progenitus plan anyways.