All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

I'm just on the boat that, I don't think it is necessarily too powerful, it is just a fucking miserable card to play against. (Never played with it, and I don't plan on it)

[btm10]

Also, the argument has never been that TNN decks are winning every tournament, it's that TNN has reduced the diversity of the format. I'm currently compiling and analyzing data for Jan-Oct 2013 and Nov 2013-Jan 2014 to see what impact TNN has had on Legacy. I suspect that the data will support my theory that TNN has reduced format diversity, particularly in the top tier, and made the format "play TNN, play a deck that doesn't care about TNN, or prepare to lose a lot". We'll see what my data yields.

I suspect that TNN has either increased the diversity of the format as a whole, and that the diversity in the top tier has remained roughly constant. But I'm willing to wait to see what the data says. I would like to know what your diversity metric is, succinctly put. Is it just number of clearly identifiable archetypes? Is it the proportion of non-blue based decks in the field? Is the number of variants on the existing major archetypes that are viable/tier 1? And, perhaps most importantly, how are you separating first-order TNN effects from second and higher-order effects? This isn't trivial. Imagine that TNN drives deck X out of the top tier, which makes room for deck Y that preys on TNN strategies that was previously either subpar relative to deck X, or had a poor X matchup but a strong TNN matchup. Deck Z may have had a 50/50 matchup against deck X and doesn't care about TNN, but is extremely soft to deck Y for whatever reason and is driven to tier 2 by its 30/70 deck Y matchup despite not caring about TNN at all.


Also - I don't see a problem if the metagame is "play TNN, play a deck that doesn't care about TNN, or prepare to lose a lot". You could replace TNN in that formulation with a dozen cards in the format right now and it would be true. Show and Tell comes most vividly to mind, which I think is telling. Both TNN and Show and Tell feel boring/non-interactive, and which is more obnoxious is going to vary from person to person. Nontheless, I don't think any data supports banning either right now.

[sdematt]

I'm just on the boat that, I don't think it is necessarily too powerful, it is just a fucking miserable card to play against. (Never played with it, and I don't plan on it)

It's also miserable to play WITH, nevermind against.

-Matt

[apple713]

I'd like to stir the pot a little. The power level of legacy has continued to creep up to a point where the format can handle things that it once might not have.

Wheel of fortune...too good in ant/tes to be unbanned? Same thing for time twister. Timetwister for being a Power 9 card see's very little play. Timetwister might make high tide significantly better... still not tier 1 probably. and Wheel of fortune, maybe in painter stone. The issue with these cards is that your opponent typically gets to play stuff before you because you tapped out to cast either of them. Basically you just lose your tempo and that can be detrimental in magic.

With both in the format it would probably be too strong. Probably some ridiculous blue red storm combo instead of ant but I think one or the other would be ok?

***possibly having a lapse in judgement as its 3am here

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd like to stir the pot a little...

Wheel of fortune...too good in ant/tes to be unbanned? Same thing for time twister. Timetwister for being a Power 9 card see's very little play. Timetwister might make high tide significantly better... still not tier 1 probably. and Wheel of fortune, maybe in painter stone. The issue with these cards is that your opponent typically gets to play stuff before you because you tapped out to cast either of them. Basically you just lose your tempo and that can be detrimental in magic.

With both in the format it would probably be too strong. Probably some ridiculous blue red storm combo instead of ant but I think one or the other would be ok?

***possibly having a lapse in judgement as its 3am here

Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune in play sets? I think there must be a reason why no one commeted this idea.
It may not be too powerful. (In fact: it is.) It may not be warping. (In fact it would be.) But it would definitely lead to completely random games.

4 Timetwister
4 Wheel of Fortune
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tendrils of Agony

Start brainstorming.

[Shawon]

I think we should be having a conversation of whether Memory jar is safe to unban before we talk about cards that do the same thing as Memory Jar but two turns earlier.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think we should be having a conversation of whether Memory jar is safe to unban before we talk about cards that do the same thing as Memory Jar but two turns earlier.

But Memory Jar can't be [insert color] Elementaly Blasted! Twister and Wheel are definitely more safe!

[mini1337s]

For god's sake, if you aren't trolling, atleast start with Windfall.
Undercosted symmetrical redraw 7s aren't just banned for digging to deep, they are also banned as they punish players for keeping good hands.
I'm not sure if you really thought about it, but in Legacy, you would be able to accelerate with Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, etc etc etc while keeping FoW and Misdirection backup to push through your opponents hand. Having 4x Wheel or 4x Timetwister (or 8x) would mean you could go all in on a Wheel plan, unlike Vintage where you need to find a singleton. Decks with or without Force of Will would have a ridiculous time trying to keep up with Wheel storm decks going off on Turn 1.

[Barook]

I kinda dislike how many games are decided with the dice roll nowadays. If your opponent plays combo or a Delver deck, they have a significant advantage on the play, thus further forcing people into playing blue.

Wizards should print more cheap answers to prevent such coin flip matches.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wizards should print more cheap answers to prevent such coin flip matches.

Design some. And I'm not trolling, I'd be interested what ideas may ppl come with.



Leyline of Coinflip
Enchantment

[insert the "Leyline-opening_hand-etb" text]

During each turn, whenever a player plays his or her
first spell, counter it unless that player pays



Stops turn1 Delver, makes it easier to play around Stifle, no GP->Therapy, etc. Is it silly?

[Shawon]

One-mana uncounterable Shock would be nice!

[apple713]

I think we should be having a conversation of whether Memory jar is safe to unban before we talk about cards that do the same thing as Memory Jar but two turns earlier.

i think this has been discussed and most ppl agree its safe...The one deck to abuse it would be MUD. It wouldn't improve muds opening hand consistency and i think it would have little impact.

Windfall is not symmetrical and can be played to great advantage. I don't think it should remain banned but if all three (twister, wheel, and windfall) were legal i could see issues with storm. I don't necessarily think 1 of them would be busted.

If 3 mana is too little for these, 5 mana is too much, maybe they should introduce a 4 CMC one of these?

[Barook]

Design some. And I'm not trolling, I'd be interested what ideas may ppl come with.

And uncounterable Shock as Shawon said wouldn't be unreasonable. But that only answers Delver, not combo.

Gemstone Cavern was ruined by Wizards.

A bunch of cards that becomes cheaper (any maybe uncounterable) when your opponent played first might be interesting, though. Just make them so that blue don't get the most out of it. For ideas, post in the "shitty card creation thread".

[Holly]

If 3 mana is too little for these, 5 mana is too much, maybe they should introduce a 4 CMC one of these?

They did this for Windfall. Whispering Madness.

[apple713]

They did this for Windfall. Whispering Madness.

i guess 3 mana is the amount it needs to be to see play then. or just monocolored @ 4 mana

[Feaor]

i guess 3 mana is the amount it needs to be to see play then. or just monocolored @ 4 mana

I mean we do have Diminishing Returns at 4CC and Monoblue, the only thing is that its not a good engine card as its hard to chain together when it exiles 10 cards every time.

[Shawon]

i think this has been discussed and most ppl agree its safe...The one deck to abuse it would be MUD. It wouldn't improve muds opening hand consistency and i think it would have little impact.

While I am of those people who think it's safe to unban, the number of people who think it would be too good in Storm is nontrivial. I think the next step in the discussion of Jar is to demonstrate Storm lists using Memory Jar in action and compare them to ANT et al. Then, the discussion can be narrowed down to whether Jar would be too good in MUD.

[Zombie]

And another SCG broadcast where what could have been a really interesting game instead made me want to drive a rusty nail in my eye.

[FieryBalrog]

When unbanning cards, I don't know why we should start with "cards that help Storm decks only". Leaving aside the issue that the banned draw7s are just broken.

Can we just unban Earthcraft and Mind Twist already.

[prateta]

And another SCG broadcast where what could have been a really interesting game instead made me want to drive a rusty nail in my eye.

Are you talking about that RUG Delver vs DnT?