[Deck] 12 Post

[sauce]

is jund considered a bad matchup? i figured it was close to a bye, but it seems like turn1 drs, turn2 liliana is pretty annoying for the deck. especially if they get a hymn/waste as well.

[203995014]

is jund considered a bad matchup? i figured it was close to a bye, but it seems like turn1 drs, turn2 liliana is pretty annoying for the deck. especially if they get a hymn/waste as well.

Jund matchup isn't the best one to play against. This deck just has a very hard time winning when Jund curves out and the deck also runs Wasteland and discard combined.

[sauce]

what's everyone take on kozilek, is he really necessary, i've piloted the deck for last 8 weeks and am 31-4-1 w/o it and 29-2-1 w/ 0 candelabras. just curious if the kozilek is actually needed and if itis, for what reason.
there were maybe 2-3 instances in all of my 36 matches that i was flooded w/o a SDT and no crop rotation for eye of ugin to win where it would be an extra bomb to draw that would win the game, but i am more often find myself fighting to survive long enough to play or S&T (matchup dependant) a titan or hard cast ulamog (and/or emrakul).

most games vs aggro are either titan -> win or hide behind glacial chasm long enough to titan and then win.
most games vs control are just play my lands -> win
most games vs combo are crop rotation into bojuka bog or karakas g1 and then g2/g3 bring in 13 counterspells and pray.

[Zotmaster]

what's everyone take on kozilek, is he really necessary, i've piloted the deck for last 8 weeks and am 31-4-1 w/o it and 29-2-1 w/ 0 candelabras. just curious if the kozilek is actually needed and if itis, for what reason.
there were maybe 2-3 instances in all of my 36 matches that i was flooded w/o a SDT and no crop rotation for eye of ugin to win where it would be an extra bomb to draw that would win the game, but i am more often find myself fighting to survive long enough to play or S&T (matchup dependant) a titan or hard cast ulamog (and/or emrakul).

most games vs aggro are either titan -> win or hide behind glacial chasm long enough to titan and then win.
most games vs control are just play my lands -> win
most games vs combo are crop rotation into bojuka bog or karakas g1 and then g2/g3 bring in 13 counterspells and pray.

I'm gonna quote myself here, from earlier:

The applications of Ulamog and Emrakul are pretty self-explanatory, but the most pressing question is usually "Why Kozilek?" It's a lot of different, if situational, factors.

There are a great many games where my hand is (or is nearly) empty by the time I cast an Eldrazi. Kozilek fills your hand regardless of his fate (unless he runs into a Stifle). Getting four more cards is no joke, as it digs even deeper than Sensei's Divining Top. Especially in my (cheapo) version, which isn't running blue, I need to see as many cards as possible to have a chance.

When you look at it from a cost perspective, Kozilek is actually pretty mana efficient. Even without Annihilator or draw four, Kozilek is a 12/12 for 10, or often even 8 mana. He is easier to cast than Ulamog while also being larger than Ulamog. Kozilek and Ulamog are also prime targets to eat a Swords to Plowshares: that extra two life sometimes makes a difference. And speaking of easier to cast, if you play long enough there will be a game where you're holding an Ulamog in hand with either 8 or 10 mana on the board, cursing the gods of randomness that you don't have that extra single mana to cast him. An Eldrazi on the battlefield is a game-changer. An Eldrazi in your hand is a piece of cardboard that you hopefully put in a sleeve.

Finally, Eldrazi are still vulnerable to hate. I've seen my Emrakul eat a Slaughter Games and Surgical Extraction before. While neither situation is terribly common, you're going to be unhappy when multiple copies of the same Eldrazi get ripped out of your deck because you didn't run, say, Kozilek.

If you're like me, you'll be skeptical about the value of Kozilek when you first run the deck. But run him. He'll pay out in the end.

I've never regretted running a Kozilek. Now I'm running the RUG list, and I even cast one into a Standstill the other day. That's still card advantage for me, even if Kozilek ends up getting countered. Actually, that game in particular, I ended up casting Kozilek three times: my opponent had Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor out. I had Karakas, though, and the never ending stream of card advantage eventually won me the day.

[sauce]

I'm gonna quote myself here, from earlier:



I've never regretted running a Kozilek. Now I'm running the RUG list, and I even cast one into a Standstill the other day. That's still card advantage for me, even if Kozilek ends up getting countered. Actually, that game in particular, I ended up casting Kozilek three times: my opponent had Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor out. I had Karakas, though, and the never ending stream of card advantage eventually won me the day.

i understand the obvious merits of the card, but i fail to understand the specific matchups where you need him.

[Mockingbird]

i understand the obvious merits of the card, but i fail to understand the specific matchups where you need him.

All of them.

It's not match-ups you need Kozilek, it's situations. Primary one being topdecking or stuck on 8-10 mana, which yes, it happens, and it's frustrating. And the reason I still play Kozilek even though I'm playing Stroke of Genius is because 1. Draw power that dodges counter magic 2. it's a respectable body 3. His grave trigger is my most likely chance to recycle Cloudposts that have fallen to Wasteland.

[sauce]

All of them.

It's not match-ups you need Kozilek, it's situations. Primary one being topdecking or stuck on 8-10 mana, which yes, it happens, and it's frustrating. And the reason I still play Kozilek even though I'm playing Stroke of Genius is because 1. Draw power that dodges counter magic 2. it's a respectable body 3. His grave trigger is my most likely chance to recycle Cloudposts that have fallen to Wasteland.

can you pm/post your list and metagame?

[Mockingbird]

can you pm/post your list and metagame?

Currently:

//Lands: 24
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

//Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Artifacts: 10
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
1 Stroke of Genius

//Sorceries: 6
3 Ponder
3 Show and Tell

//Sideboard: 15
4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glacial Chasm

It's a mess, but it has a decent win record (i'm 70%, which is not likely as good as Rock Lee) between this and my MUD-Post deck. I play mostly online for budget and player base reasons, but the metagame there right now is mostly BUG and Elves!. It's annoying because I put Pithing Needle back in the main not primarily to call Wasteland, and it's almost all B(x)(y) Control decks. I can handle most of them unless they decide to get cute early with hand destruction or in the case of elves, do an "Oops, I just won" move. While I see other decks as well, the only thing I note is the lack of combo decks lately. I'm sure they're there, but I just dodge them a lot.

[ac3eb]

So I'm looking to pick this deck back up after giving it a rest for a couple of months. It's just too much fun. However, the new flavor of the month in my local meta is DnT and that just feels like a pretty unfavorable matchup (correct me if I'm wrong). Is the best option to fight DnT still Chain of Vapor in the main? There's got to be something better out there, though U and G don't exactly give you the best tools to fight hatebears. I'm thinking O-stone is still a decent option though revoker does spoil the fun. All is dust is probably too expensive if they have any decent start. I might just choose to ignore it and see how it goes with the 3 ponders maindeck as I'm somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to lists, but I def don't feel confident in the matchup.

[kingtk3]

So I'm looking to pick this deck back up after giving it a rest for a couple of months. It's just too much fun. However, the new flavor of the month in my local meta is DnT and that just feels like a pretty unfavorable matchup (correct me if I'm wrong). Is the best option to fight DnT still Chain of Vapor in the main? There's got to be something better out there, though U and G don't exactly give you the best tools to fight hatebears. I'm thinking O-stone is still a decent option though revoker does spoil the fun. All is dust is probably too expensive if they have any decent start. I might just choose to ignore it and see how it goes with the 3 ponders maindeck as I'm somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to lists, but I def don't feel confident in the matchup.

I think that basics and repeal/pithing needle on vial or bolt/bonfire their board is the way to approach the matchup.

[sauce]

I think that basics and repeal/pithing needle on vial or bolt/bonfire their board is the way to approach the matchup.

also just executing your game plan works well. crop rotating in response to port or wasteland and pithing needle on wasteland/vial/port in that order. if they can't abuse vial, they cant afford to port as much.
it's definitely a tough matchup but it's easier than jund since they give you a lot more time and don't interact w/ your hand

[That nice guy]

My musings on the current meta/post-builds:

Is The new spirit a problem? Yes. But does it warrant cutting my sweet, sweet ponders? IDK. I run 4 ponder in my very focused list, BTW, it's amazing. And since almost every win I've ever had against D&T has come from a show-> Prime, I think that it won't matter much.

I've been considering cutting 2 Ponder for 2 Trinket Mage since the meta has seemed to slow a bit, and then cut another Ponder for a Engineered Explosives in the main. This would also tempt me into putting one chalice in the side. BUT, Aven Mindsensor has something to say about me trying this. IDK, but I will test it and let you guys know if you're interested. Also, I miss a single Mox Diamond in the main.

The only other thing I've been considering testing is running a Eureka or two with a Chasm in the main, considering that there are a lot of times when my only path to victory seems to be getting a Prime Time ASAP (Merfolk, D&T, RUG w/ 1st turn delver). What do you guys think. I think it's bad, but worth a shot. I just wish I could run 6 Show & Tell!

[Rock Lee]

This version I brought to my local weekly meta as prep for SCG NJ this weekend. Split the finals with another 12post list, but lost when we played the game out. As anyone who reads this thread and plays this deck knows, metagaming the maindeck to beat the non-mirror means that losing the mirror is an easy task. This was the list I used:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [ME4] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker


I will likely test with 0 ponders, 2 candelabra, 1 trinket mage, as Oracle has been quite deliciously overkill as intended, with Ponder not being fully necessary.

[kingtk3]

What is the main reason for oracle? Also, why revokers instead of needles in the side?

[Rock Lee]

What is the main reason for oracle? Also, why revokers instead of needles in the side?

With the deck purely sideboarded against combo, I have found zero problem beating combo in 3. So Oracle allows an equally strong maindeck against midrange/aggro/tempo. Needle I still loathe, and was only needling sneak attack/griselbrand, and wishing I could needle Heritage druid/Lion's Eye Diamond/Lotus Petal in addition to Sneak Attack/Griselbrand/Aether Vial. Revoker hits these, while also providing colorless blockers versus Mother of Runes and Healing Salve'ing against highly aggressive decks.

[sauce]

needle is still great vs wasteland and liliana as well as a lot of other targets such as sneak attack/griseldaddy. i do like access to it but you can play around hate cards w/o needles but you lean a lot heavier on crop rotation then.

[Maagler]

For Reference this is the list Rock played against:

1 Kozilek, butcher of truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul the Aeons torn
4 Primeval Titain
2 Trinket Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell

1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest


Side:

4 Force of will
3 Fluster Storm
3 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen, Elendra Archmage
3 Gut Shot


Went 4:0 playing against Nic fit, Burn, Death and Taxes, and 12 Post, Dropping Games to 12 Post and Burn.

I brought Gut shot in against DNT but it didn't seem to make a difference to the game, I am probably going to switch them to something more relevant in the match, perhaps Phyrexian Revoker.

Chasm Main saved me verse burn, buying me time to drop 3 Primeval Titian and gain a bunch of life.

[sauce]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

[Rock Lee]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

Not sure if this is trolling due to illiteracy or just lethargy. The incredibly expansive mana pool available allows for wide deck variation. This is covered many times over this thread. Also Changes in the meta provoke great change in control decks, and this is a control deck at its heart.

[Razorwynd]

I don't understand why there is so much inconsistencies with this deck between the lists...
Some people run 0-3 Pithing Needle, some people run 2-4 Expedition maps.
Most people run 4 Repeal but some are running 3?
Some people run 3 Sensei's divining top, but most run 4.
Some people run 3 Crop rotation, others run 4.
There is also debate on number of Candelabras 0, 1 or 2.

EDIT: Also, most people are on 3 Show on Tells, but some are now on 4?

The other issue is the number of Vesuvas. Some people went down to 2, but it looks like they are running some amount of Ponders also and 25 lands.
I am running 27 lands w/ 3 Vesuva and 1 Cavern of souls. Trying 5th fetch over 3rd basic Island.

Then there are the other slots like Ponders, Trinket mage(s), Oblivion Stones, Engineered explosives, Bonfire of the damned.
Why is there no consensus on all of this?

If the answer was obvious then there would be no need for the very thread you posted your comment in