Well, generally speaking there are a multitude of reasons to select either build, but in my playtesting I've found that you make the decision based not only on play preference but also meta. The GWr shell tends to be more explosive in terms of "comboing," off. In a meta filled with aggro or non-interactive decks, the GWr shell shines as it only requires you play 1 or 2 defensive enchantments before comboing off. The weakness of this build, however, is that even post-SB its very susceptible to Combo/Control (counter/discard) and requires utility via Tutors as well as intelligent SBing (given that we have lots of different answers to something but they all have their limitations).Originally Posted by sun tzu
Contrariwise, the benefit of the UG shell is it can reliably contend (at least, as far as Enchantress builds are concerned) with control-based decks. Note the UG Thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-G-Enchantress.
UG builds tend to have much better ways at interacting with Control decks. Seal of Removal is, in my opinion, a good standard that helps to answer early aggro or "Cheat," creatures via S&T/SA/Reanimator. 4 GSZ as well as Eternal Witness helps to fight through counters and insure you're not just blindly using tutor effects in the hopes of wearing down their counters. Carpet of Flowers for extra mana, and the combo engine Cloud of Faeries + Words of Wind can sometimes be used for a lock that can assure a win more easily than those in GWr shells. Not to mention you can use fun cards like In the Eye of Chaos provided you can afford them.
Both builds have their benefits, as noted, and really just boil down to what your preference is as well as your meta. Control decks are quite popular right now and as such I believe the UG build is worth considering, even if the GWr shell is still more prevalent.
As far as win cons the thing about Enchantress is its always kind of a "pick you win con," deck since you can really just decide how you want to win once you establish a board presence. Sigil of the Empty Throne tends to be standard given its utility not only as an ending win con but as an early answer to enemy creatures. Let's face it, getting a free 4/4 flying token just for playing an enchantment is valuable at any state of the game. Beyond this there are numerous options available as you noted. Heck, you could even be silly and run that Enchantment who's name I've forgotten that costs G and reads something to the effect of X: Put X counters on this. Win the game when you have 100 counters (more effective in UG than GWr.
Words of War generally speaking is simply good in that it can prevent you from decking yourself. A rare happenstance, but can be relevant. An early WoW can also help you snipe problem threats if you feel as though you're having difficulty setting up your combo (Confidant, Delver, etc.). It can also be reliably sustained for dmg with 2 Enchantress effects.
Realistically speaking, most of our wincons require you have established some sort of board presence which requires fighting through the plethora of hate/control in the present meta. What you need to ask yourself first and foremost is which build will permit me to sustain and survive AGAINST the meta.
Forlorn Egoist
How to play Belcher:
Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"
Decks
Enchantress
Dragon Stompy
Rock
UG Madness/Thresh (Pauper)
Before giving you my point of you, this are some "atypical" win conditions:
Sacred mesa
Luminarch ascension
Primal order
Helix pinnacle
In my last tournament (113 man) i pushed words of wind as "3rd win cond" / solution spell and except for 1 game it sucked all day long. My conclusion was it need a "matrix" that fits with it as occurs with UG.
Enchantress, any version, is a difficult deck. I bases on taking the control of the whole table with chained enchantments. when i started with the deck i went 0-4 / 1-3 every tournament until i won a small one, got 2nd place in a middle one and had always positive record in huge tournaments.
If you ask me the best win cond i ever used are:
Helm / rip
Throne
Words of war
The first one explains it self.
Throne is a bomb. I cant be needleable. Triggers when you cast an enchantment and defecates 4/4 flying guys. It's very good. If you want, its drawback is its mana cost, sometimes hard to cast and generate angels if you dont control sanctum.
Words of war is a very versatile enchantment. Yuo can rape small guys at the same time you can kill walkers. It's very effective and prevents you from milling when the game goes long. It has a very rasonable cost and a heavy effect.
Side note: if you are pushing enchantress make sure that you can beat walkers with you deck. liliana is annoying if you cant kill her fast.
In my last tournament, if this helps, i took GWu enchantress because i had a solid answer to tnn who i expected a lot. I could drop Energy field + rip and just stall at the same time that i had access to detention sphere to eat 2 goyfs or even goblin tokens (wasnt that relevant). The deck worked out quite well except for some misplays i made which punished me so hard.
Moreover i had the fantasy of running black enchantress but due i had no time to test it i gave up.
Finally im not sure how parallax wave / opalescence combo works but i dislike non-flyning creatures in this deck other than argothian off course. :P
GC.
thanks for the input man :D
with parallax wave + opalescence in play, you can permanently exile all of their creatures. basically you target 4 of their guys with wave, then use wave to target itself last. wave leaves play, then returns all 'creatures' to play that were exiled before it left play. since its the first creature exiled its the only one that comes back. then the 4 exile triggers happen in order, but they are un-linked with the freshly entered play parallax wave, so these creatures just get perma exiled. wave also enters with another 5 counters. both attack for 4 each so it puts a decently fast clock once enabled, assuming you can find a way to attack before you need parallax wave to leave play then return to play (no haste).
there are also interesting interactions you can do to save your own enchantments that are now creatures, too. its a fun combo but im fairly certain its not fast or competitive enough. parallax wave is a pretty decent card for dealing with creatures, but it requires a heavy investment, even if that investment is 'only' 4 mana. its still a lot, and both cards dont really do anything versus faster decks.
I still think Hunting Grounds would be tots adorbs in a build running Living Wish.I also know that Defense of the Heart + Forbidden Orchard was discussed for a brief period.
Forlorn Egoist
How to play Belcher:
Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"
Decks
Enchantress
Dragon Stompy
Rock
UG Madness/Thresh (Pauper)
I actually choose to play dryad arbor because you can fetch it up with windswept to dodge an edict effect killing an Argothian. I've been more than happy to trade a land drop for my enchantress, and I've actually been able to bait opponents into -2ing Lily when she only had 2 counters because they thought they could finish off my last enchantress.
I have always liked opalescence as an alternate win con. If you are in a winning position, then you have enough permanents on the board to win most games with one huge swing. It also has the ability to swing games in your favor by itself, giving you a little horde to defend yourself until you can establish yourself. If you dont have a sterling grove, or fear some form of creature removal, simply dont play it when you have it.
I haven't seen anyone else run it though, so perhaps i'm missing something.
After facing lots of BGx decks with discard and beating more u deck than being beaten by them i thoguht in Spiritual focus to relief the effect of discard. I know we have leyline but i think that except it's in our openig hand maybe never will see play. Has anybody tested it? or had the same thought than me?
BGx decks can be difficult, but are certainly beatable. When playing in a BGx meta I look at a few things:
- Is the deck I'm running redundant?
- Running the max 12 Enchantress's will only help (4 argoth, 4 Pres, 4 Green Suns) Sterling / wish is not a replacement to keep the tempo on high.
- Do I have deck manipulation? (they can't make you discard what is not in your hand)
- Mirri's guile
- Sylvan Library
- Is there a plan b I can build into the 75 to catch players off guard?
...after those I look at target hate cards, and then I thin you want Compost to use in other MU's but maybe not.
Frankly, I never tried it but I was always concerned about removal, and the fact that we tend to ignore the board (Confinement) so I was worried that the board would be clogged and to break the stalemate I was worried I have to attack with enchantments I didn't want to loose. Is this unwarranted?
I played Orchard / Defense for a bit. I tabled it after a bad tournament where I played a lot of Black decks and got murdered with targeted discard. Playing this combo is powerful, but is weak to those affects as you need something to not die to the free creatures you are giving out. In addition, you can get stuck with hands of fatties and no way to cast / use them. There can be a build there, but its more conditional than others and therefore less sound no matter how fun it was, or how bad I wanted it to work.I still think Hunting Grounds would be tots adorbs in a build running Living Wish.
Forlorn Egoist
@ Sun Tsu & wins. As I read your post you are not so much concerned about actual wins as you are with learning a deck and play style of each version, and there they are all vastly different IMHO.
GWr - This is for the prison lover. A player who likes to lock others out of their plan. This player knows the meta, and tunes their lists to exploit whatever hole they see in that meta through bullet enchantments, and from there win at will with an enchantment win of their choosing.
GWr is susceptible to guessing the meta wrong (but it runs good stuff even when you do confinement / sterling), awkward draws like sterling hands but good mu enchantments but no enchantress effect. ... In short you have to study your meta you have to know your list you have to know what matters and you have to execute.
UG - Is for a combo player that likes complex lines and math. This is designed for the type of player that wants to focus on comboing off. They still know a lot about the meta, but largely they are not tuning their list to react to it unless it interacts negatively with their combo. This player evaluates the hands on the speed to combo. This deck is about racing not locking. ...well racing to the lock, and winning through attacking. In doing so the lists focus on redundancy and not bullets, and so are "easier" to learn, but still requires a lot of practice, and frankly perhaps a mentor because some of the interactions are not complex but are not especially easy to know what is proper given your opponent.
UG is susceptible to unkown play errors. Typical enchantress hate (basic land hate, -1/-1 effects) fast sleigh, and combo builds & needle effects.
GW Helm - Is more for the combo prison player. The deck is designed to be resilient / redundant and draw cards. Unlike GWr it focuses on the Enchantress all-stars (confinement / Sanctum...) and maxes out those QTYs to just stick it and lock, but it's not looking to lock but for more than 1-2 turns. It also varies from GU's play style in that GW largely does not care about complex math (maybe mana & draws) but it does a 2 card combo. In that respect it is more of your Show and Tell variety of combo.
I can speak to other builds if there is interest, but I'm too tired to blindly write it out now.
Freggle, I liked your SCG list overall (although I made some changes), but one thing stuck out to me: no Sterling Groves.
Can you explain this logic to me? I'm new to Enchantress so I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the different versions.
this question is often asked. for a short answer, Groves are mainly used for its shroud effect. It's good if you want to play a "prison" version of enchantress and if you want to maintain a solitary confinement lock for many turns. But if you play a more "combo" oriented version of the deck, grooves are a big lose of tempo. Freegles could probably give you a better and more detailed answer because i never test the deck without at least 3 grooves!
I have an other question for enchantress players. I'll go to the GP PARIS this WE and i don't know if Spirit of the Labyrinth from Born of the gods will be played... Do you think it's necessary to provide a solution MD for this card? if so do you have a good idea? (i play a RIP/helm version with only 1 oblivion Ring MD to deal with this card...)
Maybe include 1 enlightened tutor. Grab sphere of resistence/humility/combo piece. Oblivion Ring is very good, I was testing 2 MD because planeswalkers were annoying too.
Thank you. The list isn’t meant to be a work of art with a cemented 75 (although I would like it to get there.) It is more a template of what you need to make the deck work, so making changes is a part of the process.
On the topic of No Groves: Short answer: it is largely a product of my building / testing style.
Long answer: The deck was built with a philosophy that if you draw enough cards you will win, so all the choices were made to draw the most cards possible. This means for Enchantress the goal was to push the decks curve as low as possible so you can cast more per turn. In doing so it makes Confinement lock or RIP Helm easier to assemble. In essence the deck may close the game with RIP / Helm or Emrakul, but it wins by drawing cards. Therefore I build the list with this thesis, and adjusted from there. I tested Groves off and on and found that in high number it put too much pressure on the mana to hit white early. Typically when I play this deck all the Utopia Sprawls name Green This allows us to chain sprawls and growths for net 0 mana if you have a land untapped., and then drop a Sanctum to drop RIP / Helm, Confienment, or Emrakul (all white). When you add Groves you disrupt that flow, and you stall turns that could have dug far further, and possibly combed.
Then there is also the fact that many times I could just cast 2-3 RIP’s before Helm or Emrakul or 2-3 Confinements to buy that turn I needed to untap draw the deck and win. So in essence the lack of groves is a nod to tempo, and from the fact that I wanted to prove or disprove the thesis before I went to a tried and true.
Since then I have tested a number of other things and the list I run currently has 1 main, and 1 in the board. (I’m still not sure if it is right.) I can post the current list later if there is interest.
@Enlightened Tutor is it card disadvantage and therefore didn’t make the cut as well. It was tested, but exposed the deck too much to pure control / permission. It is better off as an enchantment hate piece or more stall so that you draw more even if it is countered and bury them with advantage.
I am interested to have a look at your list!
Your line of reasoning is correct. I'm not sold to GSZ but this may be a subject of play style. My core with tutor and grove engine worked very well to me. I'm tempted to cut E. tutor and add GSZ but i'm afraid that i can loose a fast answer to oponent pression. I.e an early liliana.
I'm completely agree with deck manipulation. I've been run 3 mirr's guile since acouple of month ago and i liked. It also helps me to keep good hands without enchantress effects.
And for compost, it's a good option but i think spiritual focus is a lite bit better. ;)
On grove topic: i love them maily for its shroud. this is very important in mu where abrupt decay is waitning for its entrance. I use the tutor effect to fetch a win cond or a lock piece, i dont hurry to break it as soon as posible.
Main:I am interested to have a look at your list!
4 Argothian enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Rest in Peace
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
11 Forest
Side:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sterling Grove
3 Stony Silence
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Variance from the SCG list:
Main:
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Abundant Growth
+1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Seal of Primordium
+1 Forest
Side:
-2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Sterling Grove
+1 Oblivion Ring
I play test almost daily on line in tournament practice on MTGO and I've been on this for a little over a week. IT has performed very well. Somewhere on the order of 15-5 (I can see if I can look this up in my history if people want the actual stat) This list is still in flux, but I do like it.
Main question: Why the additional forest? The main way this deck looses is to itself. Games are very much decided in the first few turns. Missing a land drop or having to mulligan for green mana is too costly. This is where probe helped make sure you hit the land because it wasn't a true card slot. Without Probe The additional land seems the best. I decided to try this after tesing Crop Rotation in the abundant growth slots for a week or so. I like the tricks I could do with it, but it was a non-enchantment that was disadvantage. It was largely a win more. Since I was testing a non-enchantment in that slot I figured why not try a land to reduce mulligans and ever so slightly improve the Death and Taxes MU. Overall I have been pleased.
Thanks for the excellent explanation!
If you test daily it would be awesome if you started streaming on twitch. It's always so much fun seeing someone skilled at a certain deck pilot it, and regular streamers get good views.
You know it's funny you mention this. I have thought about it quite a bit, but most of the time I sit down to do this I'd just rather play Magic. I'll look into it more seriously if you really are curious because I think I can learn a lot from the process as well. It's really going to cut down on my Magic in the hot tub or bed time though.If you test daily it would be awesome if you started streaming on twitch. It's always so much fun seeing someone skilled at a certain deck pilot it, and regular streamers get good views
It should also be mentioned that right after posting about how I have had success with the deck I got schooled 2 games in a row by jund decks running 2+ copies of Golgari Charm and landing T2 Lilli's. Have their lists changed that much recently? I went 2-3 for the night beating Imperial Painter, Deadguy Ale, and ANT.
If you stream, I'll just come over and commentate and you play, lol. We have to start becoming famous.
im certainly interested in your insight into other builds if you have the time. you dont have to go super in depth, however. win condition and main strategies of the deck would be enough, or just a brief overview of how it works. basically what you did with your post. i love exploring all types of options and new ideas are always appreciated :D
on the subject of mirri's guile, i've really liked this card in all of my different builds. playing this on turn 1 is massively good and helps the entire game (or till it is destroyed or dealt with). yea it doesnt really 'do anything' to effect the opponents board state, but a lot of builds that ive seen seem to try to be able to ignore what the opponent is doing or make what they are doing not matter through redundancy. when you can look at the top 3 every turn starting with your turn 2, the things you need to be able to meet the 2 game requirements most decks function on:
1.) what do i need to do to stay alive another turn.
2.) what do i need to do to either 'set up' or 'combo out' or effectively 'seal the game' even if its down the line a bit a few turns later.
mirri's guile helps in both areas a great deal. i really cant say enough about how awesome this card is, especially if you are running shuffle effects (like GSZ and fetch lands). with mirri's guile, green sun zenith, and fetch lands together, the deck provides a good foundation for early turns and also offer redundancy to the areas our deck seems to struggle with if our opponents try to interact where it counts.
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