[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Pans-Advocate]

I took a pretty stock build to the BoM trial at Tales of Adventure in PA on Saturday. The list:

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1 vs Oops All Spells (siding to Belcher): he mulls to 5 on the play and casts Gitaxian Probe as his only spell before I cast Thalia and he scoops. Game 2 he literally fails to use the turn 2 win that is, in fact, in his hand and I play Thalia and he scoops 3 turns later.. Not much to say about this one, I guess.

R2 vs TES: I die turn 1 on the play in G1. I land hatebears and win in the next two. G3 he just is too slow, but an interesting situation comes up in game 2 where I play Vial off a Wasteland on turn 1 and he Ponders, and shuffles away a 3 that would win on turn 2 if I missed a land drop, in order to find a way to win through a hate bear, because he'd have a hard time beating one if I had it. He finished 7-1 into top 8 so he clearly knew what he was doing, but in 20/20 hindsight this was a punt and I felt crazy lucky for beating fast combo two rounds in a row.

R3 vs Manaless Dredge: I had Thalia turn 2 both games so he never went crazy and I took game 1 with Mirran Crusader, then Rest in Peace in game 2.

R4 vs Enchantress: I got stomped by and early Sigil pumping out Angels, and Flickerwisp interaction is just nowhere near enough. Then I punt game 2 when I blow a Cataclysm way too early, and he recovers to lock me out successfully. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Enchantress is cold to a well-timed Cataclysm, but I found a way to screw it up. Only clear punt of the day.

R5 vs Junk: I get overwhelmed in game 1 by Lingering Souls and Jitte breaking an empty board, and I win game 2 by cheating Wilt-Leaf into play on a Liliana activation. Ratchet Bomb does strong work in game 3, blowing up a SoFaI and an Oblivion Ring, but we got to time and I make a loose play in turn 1 of turns figuring I need to win rather than draw. I get blown out by Zealous Persecution and we draw in turn 5 while I'm facing lethal on board. I am pretty sure this game was mine if we'd had more time, because I'd figured out the conservative and definitely correct play (which we went over afterwards and I doubt he could have beaten), but it would not have ended the game in 2 turn cycles.

R6 vs Esperblade running Back to Basics: Rishadan Port keeps him out of both games almost completely. His draws were poor overall, and I drew and repeatedly activated 5 Ports (and 3 Wastelands for almost all his naturally drawn duals) across 2 games. It didn't feel very close and I haven't played this matchup enough to know if it was normal or a fluke.

R7 vs TES: mulled a normally good hand (2x Plow, Mystic, Avenger) into a hate bear hand because I was playing Bryant Cook. He crushed me anyway, then hit Ad Nauseum turn 2 off his Brainstorm in game 2 when I had Tutor-> Ratchet for his Empty kill. Not unexpected honestly.

R4 vs Team America I 2-0 him in close games, flying over TNN after establishing a board that can race it. I felt marginally advantaged the whole time but he kept me on my toes.

Finished 5-2-1 for 22nd of 177, prizes paid to top 21 (aka down to x-2). My TES opponents both top 8'd. the list felt great though (except for Bridge, I'm cutting it for Celestial Flare ... Very little Elves around me right now), and my only mistakes were time management in R5 and an obvious punt in R4 that I won't make again. This makes me feel good about the deck going forward. I haven't tried Brimaz yet but Crusader won me 2 games that Brimaz probably would not have, so I'm not going to rush out to grab them just yet.

[Rogan]

I have been seeing a lot of Cavern of Souls in various DnT mana bases (2 in the 9th place St. Louis Open last weekend) but my experience with the card has been rather lack-luster considering I tend to prefer having the white source for casting other spells. This is especially due to the fact that we have now so few creatures that share a type.

I have started going with Eiganjo Castle for value but if I start getting wasteland-ed anymore I might just turn it into a plains (or maybe another Horizon Canopy?).

What are everyone's thoughts on Cavern?

[from Cairo]

I have been seeing a lot of Cavern of Souls in various DnT mana bases (2 in the 9th place St. Louis Open last weekend) but my experience with the card has been rather lack-luster considering I tend to prefer having the white source for casting other spells. This is especially due to the fact that we have now so few creatures that share a type.

I have started going with Eiganjo Castle for value but if I start getting wasteland-ed anymore I might just turn it into a plains (or maybe another Horizon Canopy?).

What are everyone's thoughts on Cavern?

In my testing the deck wants 15 colored sources. I think you want ~12 Humans to justify running Cavern of Souls as a colored source. Phyrexian Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic and Spirit of the Labyrinth can at least be cast off one Plains with a Cavern on Human. The more Serra Avengers, Flickerwisps, and Brimaz copies the deck is running, the harder it will be to cast them on curve.

[Pans-Advocate]

In my experience the Cavern actually names Kor or Artificer most often. Of the times when I want to jam a creature through countermagic, at least 60% of the time that creature is Stoneforge. I generally only name Human against Countertop decks or when it is necessary to fix mana for Mirran Crusader or casting a Plow the same turn. Every time I consider taking the card out, it either gives me game against a Countertop lock or I get a free win when my Delver opponent has Force but not removal for Stoneforge and I feel like I need to keep it in.

[jvacar622]

I've done quite a bit of t2 cavern on artificer/kor, then later get a flickerwisp in off vial, or just cast it, blink the cavern and call human.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

[SPiTLiCKY]

Given my very limited time playing D&T and legacy in general, I would agree the deck wants 15 colored sources. I don't like having more than 3 karakas, as I've had more starting hands with 2 Karakas and a colorless land than I'd care to remember. And this is coming from someone still running 3x mangara. I do run a single cavern and like others have said it's not unfrequently set on T2 to Kor/artificer. I did pick up one brimaz but he hasn't really had time to prove himself but it's not hard to see the power he has. The Mirran crusader in my list may not have won me games by himself but it definitely does work in those BUG match ups. And poor spirit of the labyrinth, like most I was excited about the card and find it very lackluster. I do have 1 in the board but so far nothing spectacular has come out of it. I think it should be mentioned I only play online so I don't have to tune my deck to some local meta or anything.

I want to thank everyone who has posted in the thread, as I may not have got the deck without all the great and enthusiastic people here. I hope I can help others as you have helped me.

[Barbed Blightning]

Given my very limited time playing D&T and legacy in general, I would agree the deck wants 15 colored sources. I don't like having more than 3 karakas, as I've had more starting hands with 2 Karakas and a colorless land than I'd care to remember. And this is coming from someone still running 3x mangara. I do run a single cavern and like others have said it's not unfrequently set on T2 to Kor/artificer. I did pick up one brimaz but he hasn't really had time to prove himself but it's not hard to see the power he has. The Mirran crusader in my list may not have won me games by himself but it definitely does work in those BUG match ups. And poor spirit of the labyrinth, like most I was excited about the card and find it very lackluster. I do have 1 in the board but so far nothing spectacular has come out of it. I think it should be mentioned I only play online so I don't have to tune my deck to some local meta or anything.

I want to thank everyone who has posted in the thread, as I may not have got the deck without all the great and enthusiastic people here. I hope I can help others as you have helped me.

Good points all around; welcome to the team!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barook]

I don't think Brimaz is a must-buy - it's okay to have, but not "OMG NEW STAPLE". To repeat my post in the Salvation thread:

The more I play the Brimaz, the more clear it becomes that Crusader vs Brimaz is highly meta-dependent and that it isn't really possible to say "X is a better choice than Y - the end".

Crusader is better with equipment, Brimaz is better against mass removal.

Crusader sucks against red decks packing burn, Brimaz sucks against white deck with Karakas and SFM for Batterskull (they can still gain 4 life from the token each time).

That said, I really like my current configuration of

2 Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Brimaz (could be 2 Crusaders if you prefer that)
4 Flickerwisp

Lots of flyers with some utility packed. I can now regularly put up 3-1 results with this list in the MODO daily events (even though I yet have to get a 4-0 with D&T because the random gods love to screw with me). I think other configurations with 4 Avengers 4 Flickerwisp (like the SCG list from last weekend) are decent as well, but I like the Mindcensor disruption and multiple Avengers can be rather slow/dead without Vial/a second white source. Personal preference, I guess.

And I think 4 Karakas is too many since we can't filter them. Too often for my liking I draw two early, making mana screws much more likely.

[Rogan]

That is my current configuration too. I feel really strongly about my maindeck but my sideboard seems to be the area giving me the most trouble. It's hard to justify what to include and what not to include.

My current Sideboard is:
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Celestial Flare
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
(2 empty slots)

I have liked these 13 in these numbers thus far but I am trying to figure out what to put in the last two slots. I have it down to 6 cards:
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence (I like this new tech, haven't tried it yet)
1 Ratchet Bomb (delver, tokens, goblins, elves)
2 Cataclysm (lands, miracles)

Can anyone offer some help in cutting to only 2 of these?

[Barook]

All of those options are pretty good. What does your meta look like, so we can narrow it down?

[Rogan]

Plenty of varied combo (Doomsday, High Tide, Helm Enchantress, etc), Many different Stoneforge Decks (BW or Esper mostly) and various decks that run life from the loam (Depths and punishing fire).

Cataclysm is pretty much for miracles and lands decks but the loam decks seem to lock me out of the game before I can get it off so I am thinking about removing that completely.

I really like Ratchet Bomb since it kind of answers everything by itself, especially problem tokens/problem 1 CMC permanents (mostly goblins and elves, but admittedly I have more of the former than the latter around).

Linvala is honestly because I love that card and would love to jam it anywhere. I don't know if it actually does anything good but I'm totally willing to try it out.

I like either of the swords for a couple reasons.
SoLaS gets me ahead when racing in a lot of match ups and makes a lot of my threats near unkillable (5 power creatures who can't be decayed or swords'd). It's also another constant stream of card advantage against black decks running a lot of discard.
SoFaF is amazing in that it lets me cast stuff, get in some damage, disrupt combo and control while being able to untap to use my ports to control their mana. Being able to walk past goyfs is good enough to consider Mirran Crusader so if I can make anything a Mirran Crusader it might be good enough to run because I currently have cut him from my MB.

I hope that helps a little.

I am currently leaning mostly on Sword of Light and Shadow to have a more relevant sword against non-blue decks and ratchet bomb as another tutorable answer to everything.

Linvala is cool and feast and famine is too but I think with the amount of fliers I main deck the protection from green is less important to being immune to swords to plowshares.

[Madmankevinx]

How necessary is Aven Mindcensor now? I realize how powerful it can be as a vial in effect and whatnot but I want to play around with the slots a bit. I am new to the deck but due to selling almost my entire collection, D&T is about to be my only Tier1 option now.

[lambert101]

am currently rocking the following list:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas

Board:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Disenchant
2 Celestial Flare

Am possibly thinking about dropping mango and adding another plains and mirrian crusader. Please share thoughts on list.

[Barbed Blightning]

am currently rocking the following list:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas

Board:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Disenchant
2 Celestial Flare

Am possibly thinking about dropping mango and adding another plains and mirrian crusader. Please share thoughts on list.

I'd turn the disenchants into 1 Relic Warder and 1 Needle.

Maybe drop an avenger/crusader for another plains? A singleton of most cards feels pointless in this deck.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barook]

How necessary is Aven Mindcensor now? I realize how powerful it can be as a vial in effect and whatnot but I want to play around with the slots a bit. I am new to the deck but due to selling almost my entire collection, D&T is about to be my only Tier1 option now.

I'm torn about Mindcensor. Sometimes it's awesome, but more often than not, it's either too slow and/or my opponent still finds what he needs in his top 4 cards anway.

For now, I'm going to drop it and test the following configuration:

3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Mirran Crusader

Brimaz and Crusader fill similiar roles, but the King of Oreos fails to impress me in a white-heavy meta as MODO since he sucks against opposing copies of Karakas and Batterskull. I run 1 copy for now since he's still good in certain match-ups, especially those packing red.

@lambert101: I agree with Barbed Blightning - you should run Pithing Needle. I dropped it to test some other SB cards and ran into 3x Miracles today (after dodging it for ages - karma's a bitch) where I really missed it.

One of those RiPs should be Grafdigger's Cage. Slows Elves down and comes down a full turn faster against Dredge/Reanimator which can be crucial at times. It also dodges Cabal Therapies for RiP.

I think you should drop an O-Ring for an E-Tutor since it grants you more flexibility without lowering your answer density where you really need O-Ring.

You should also run a 15th white source, especially with 4 Karakas. I'm also not really a fan of the complete lack of Flickerwisp.

[jvacar622]

Yeah, zero Flickerwisp is kinda bad. I'd cut 2 crusaders and an avenger for three of them. And most decks run 23 lands and 15 white sources. Eiganjo Castle goes a long way in protecting your Brimaz, as well as Thalia, so I'd consider cutting a Karakas for it since 4 of those seems high. I might even shave the last crusader for another land since him and Brimaz kinda serve the same purpose, yet Brimaz does it better.

Also, I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is good, but requires an extensive revision of the decklist, possibly even a new archetype. The problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth going into an existing D&T shell is that it's one step down an almost completely different road. Rather than looking to shut down the opponent's ability to cast stuff, SotL pushes you towards removing the opponent's ability to draw anything of relevance, as well as the occasional Brainstorm blowout. The cards I feel go best with SotL in this kind of strategy are Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, and Mother of Runes. Mom shuts down their first removal spell every turn. Mindcensor does the obvious, and Arbiter is just obnoxious. I also feel like a Discard suite goes well with this level of disruption in card quality. Going W/B gives you access to Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize (as well as Duress and IoK), Zealous Persecution, Dark Confidant, and soon to be Waste Not. I just don't know if going white with a discard deck is even worth it, since it seems to do well enough as a monocolor deck. So basically, SotL is good, but not in D&T, but I think it might be a decent idea to figure out a list where it shines, because it could pay decent dividends.

[MrShine]

I'd turn the disenchants into 1 Relic Warder and 1 Needle.

So this is touching on an issue I've been having lately. I've had room for 2 sideboard artifact/enchantment hate pieces and have been running a 1/1 split of Relic-Warder and Disenchant. Thing is, I still can't figure out which is better, or if there is even a difference.

Against burn they land Ensnaring Bridge and if I have a LRW to answer it they just point the next piece of burn at it. This happened and it made me want a non-creature (permanent) answer.

However vs Omnitell, I was able to "get" their dream halls with relic warder off a vial activation in response to an Intuition. So there the creature aspect was a total boon.

Thoughts?

[Barbed Blightning]

So this is touching on an issue I've been having lately. I've had room for 2 sideboard artifact/enchantment hate pieces and have been running a 1/1 split of Relic-Warder and Disenchant. Thing is, I still can't figure out which is better, or if there is even a difference.

Against burn they land Ensnaring Bridge and if I have a LRW to answer it they just point the next piece of burn at it. This happened and it made me want a non-creature (permanent) answer.

However vs Omnitell, I was able to "get" their dream halls with relic warder off a vial activation in response to an Intuition. So there the creature aspect was a total boon.

Thoughts?

No offense, but burn is hardly prevalent enough to warrant argumentation against LRW.

I see it like this: we're a creature deck. Effects on legs are ideal. They synergize with vial, they synergize with Mom. Not to mention Flickerwisp shenanigans.

While disenchant is a classic solution, LRW is more practical-- and can cost you no mana with vial, freeing up your ports.

It's up to you, but with a manriki gusari in the board, I find a miser's LRW will suffice

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

No offense, but burn is hardly prevalent enough to warrant argumentation against LRW.

I see it like this: we're a creature deck. Effects on legs are ideal. They synergize with vial, they synergize with Mom. Not to mention Flickerwisp shenanigans.

While disenchant is a classic solution, LRW is more practical-- and can cost you no mana with vial, freeing up your ports.

It's up to you, but with a manriki gusari in the board, I find a miser's LRW will suffice

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

The part I put in Bold is what I think is most important.

[MrShine]

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely that the synergy of the creature is definitely the big allure, and is why I'm playing it. I'm just unhappy with how susceptible LRW is to removal; UWR runs tons - its not just Burn - so when I absolutely NEED to clear that Batterskull or Jitte or whatever off the table, LRW is a lot of the time only a soft answer.

Not really sure what I'm trying to figure out by discussing this, just thought I'd bring it up. Point being is that I think running Disenchant has its own merits, and depending on the meta you might be expecting could be a better solution in the end. For now I'm going to keep going with my 1/1 split for lack of any better options :P

Thanks for your opinions though!

EDIT - this is also one of the reasons I'm in support of Mangara lately, especially if you're running Brimaz. Vial @ 3 + Karakas is deadly with the two of them floating around in the deck. More permanent answers to random shit is never bad.