All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

No it's there because once you drop Painter, the Blasts become a 1 CMC Vindicate. Also it has something to do with the penetration of blue in the format.

Say what you like, but without Brainstorm, Painter would be fine. The deck does not run Blasts because Brainstorm is a card, it runs them because Painter is a card. Really that's the heart of it.

Derisive comment removed. Keep it civil, please. -zilla

[ahg113]

No it's there because once you drop Painter, the Blasts become a 1 CMC Vindicate. Also it has something to do with the penetration of blue in the format.

Say what you like Pony, but without Brainstorm, Painter would be fine. The deck does not run Blasts because Brainstorm is a card, it runs them because Painter is a card. Really that's the heart of it.

So what you're saying is, a Blue Painter deck, with Hyrdoblast and Blue Elemental Blast and Brainstorm would be best in life. A concession on missing Magus of the Moon & Goblin Tinker and swapping Blood Moon with Back to Basics, possibly adding Mana Vortex, because luls.

Actual conversation about the B/R list comes down to- removing "non-blue" cards (Delver, TNN, Sneak) from Legacy, or removing Brainstorm. As far as unbans go, whateve's, not sure any of the usual (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, SotF, Black Vise) will move the needle in a significant manner and feel as though they are all safe.

[PirateKing]

The deck does not run Blasts because Brainstorm is a card, it runs them because Painter is a card. Really that's the heart of it.

Combo decks tend to lose to a well placed counter spell, so having a defense against that is key to getting both cards out at the same time and being alive to use them. That's why TES runs Silence and why Belcher runs Pyroblast. Dice_Box is right, the Blasts aren't primarily offensive cards. The fact they are so prominent in the deck is the wonderful interaction with Painter, not because people play Brainstorm.

[Dzra]

I can do that with a lot of other cards like Bargain, Will, or Black lotus. Saying a card "doesn't win" is the stupidest argument ever and I'm pissed that every time it's brought up in the case of brainstorm but conveniently forgot for every other card in existence. Talk about intellectual prostitution.

How does resolving Bargain or Will not win you the game? Sure Black Lotus might just be acceleration, but I've countered a lot more LEDs in my day than Brainstorms.

Although you probably should consider countering Brainstorm sometimes.

Outside of a few corner cases, countering Brainstorms and cantrips in general is almost always wrong.

[HammafistRoob]

Combo decks tend to lose to a well placed counter spell, so having a defense against that is key to getting both cards out at the same time and being alive to use them. That's why TES runs Silence and why Belcher runs Pyroblast. Dice_Box is right, the Blasts aren't primarily offensive cards. The fact they are so prominent in the deck is the wonderful interaction with Painter, not because people play Brainstorm.

That is quite obvious. What IBA means is if Brainstorm wasn't like 70% of any given metagame Painter as a deck becomes much worse. Just because you have Painters Servants in your deck doesn't mean you will always draw one or have it live long enough for you to blast all the things. If you don't have Painter in play, and you're not playing against blue, have fun with 6-8 dead cards in your hand/deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Outside of a few corner cases, countering Brainstorms and cantrips in general is almost always wrong.

Brainstorm is not a cantrip.

[DragoFireheart]

Brainstorm is not a cantrip.

I can say with great confidence that you are wrong.

Brainstorm is a very powerful cantrip that allows broken plays. But, it's still a cantrip.

[Will_L]

Brainstorm is not a cantrip.

It's a one mana card draw spell. I think most people would call Brainstorm a cantrip.

Either way it's pretty much all semantics and not worth getting hung up on I don't think.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Brainstorm is a filtering spell. That's why it's so powerful. It's not just a slightly more efficient Sleight of Hand or even Ponder; they would never print anything close to Brainstorm at one mana again. It's two mana off a Thirst for Knowledge, a Probe without the kicker.

[mishima_kazuya]

Outside of a few corner cases, countering Brainstorms and cantrips in general is almost always wrong.

I am pretty sure countering cantrips(usually without using Force of Will) coming from combo decks is almost always correct.

I say this from experience playing against combo and having my Preordains/Brainstorms/Ponders countered(comboing is a lot harder when you can't sculpt a perfect hand).

I am not sure if this is right, but I would almost always use a soft counter(daze/spell pierce) on a cantrip coming from a fair deck like RUG Delver or Stoneblade.

[JPoJohnson]

So since we're on the topic of cantrips, what are people's thoughts regarding Frantic Search?

[TsumiBand]

So since we're on the topic of cantrips, what are people's thoughts regarding Frantic Search?

If the only decks that it enabled were Madness and Spring Tide I would be all for it. Sadly this is not the case :/

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[JPoJohnson]

If the only decks that it enabled were Madness and Spring Tide I would be all for it. Sadly this is not the case :/

sent from phone, don't be a dick

It's obviously a fantastic card with a lot of power behind it, but personally don't see the dominating power that it would be able to bring to the table. It of course would be an auto include in high tide/solidarity/spring tide variants and probably some control builds of sorts, but what beyond that would it really go for?

[Zombie]

It's obviously a fantastic card with a lot of power behind it, but personally don't see the dominating power that it would be able to bring to the table. It of course would be an auto include in high tide/solidarity/spring tide variants and probably some control builds of sorts, but what beyond that would it really go for?

Uh, Reanimator much?

[JPoJohnson]

Uh, Reanimator much?

Oh duh, yeah that one seems like it should have been obvious.

I don't see reanimator as a dominating force as is, however, and although that would increase consistency I'm not sure that it would make them overpowered or unstoppable (Although it would be PHENOMENAL in that deck for sure).

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Would reanimator really want this more than Careful Study though? Getting up to 3 mana doesn't seem like what the deck generally wants to be doing

[JPoJohnson]

Would reanimator really want this more than Careful Study though? Getting up to 3 mana doesn't seem like what the deck generally wants to be doing

I don't think all versions or builds of it would go for that, but the fact that this card would enable them to put someone into the yard and keep mana up to reanimate + protection spell would make it an appealing card to those wanting to be more of a control combo build.

[Megadeus]

No it's there because once you drop Painter, the Blasts become a 1 CMC Vindicate. Also it has something to do with the penetration of blue in the format.

Say what you like Pony, but without Brainstorm, Painter would be fine. The deck does not run Blasts because Brainstorm is a card, it runs them because Painter is a card. Really that's the heart of it.

Umm what? Yes Blast becomes VERY good with a painter out, but the reason that mainboarding 6-8 red blasts is alright is because 75% of the time you are playing against a blue deck and even without painter your blasts are relevant. Like has been said, you dont see mono blue versions running Hydroblast and BEB.

[Dice_Box]

Umm what? Yes Blast becomes VERY good with a painter out, but the reason that mainboarding 6-8 red blasts is alright is because 75% of the time you are playing against a blue deck and even without painter your blasts are relevant. Like has been said, you dont see mono blue versions running Hydroblast and BEB.

Name a deck that does not run painter that decides to maindeck 6 REB's. If the card is so good on its own against 75% of the format then why is burn not running 6, Goblins not running 6? If it's so good why is the card only ever consistently main in one deck? Can't be Painter. No that makes no sense at all.

Also of course you don't see Blue blasts in Blue painter. What on earth is blue always able to do? Oh that's right, use a bevy of better cards to counter and control shit.

[Dzra]

You don't see Blue Painter for a couple reasons. Firstly, Blue doesn't have access to 8 Blood Moons. It should be obvious why that card is good. Next off, even without Painter on the field, REB counters things that are relevant to combo decks... like counter spells. BEB counters what? Lightening Bolt? Opposing Blood Moons maybe?

And as far as countering cantrips, sometimes it is fine but they are usually more corner cases. For example, if someone Brainstorms with a fetch out and your soft counters are likely to lose value then sure. I wouldn't be too aggressively countering cantrips from just any combo deck though. Saving soft counters for High Tide's combo turn is great, same with TES/ANT. Sneak and Show probably outpaces soft counters faster than most combo decks, so it might be alright to dump them at some point, but I'm still not a fan in most cases.