I like the list. I know Lingering Souls is GREAT against Miracles, but I'm just not sure if it is good against TNN (not sure if I would bring it in there or not).
I'm running:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Runed Halo
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Chainer's Edict
2 Lingering Souls
Sideboard is up in the air for the last three slots (Souls and Edict). Needle is extremely good at taking care of Top in Miracles, as well as Jace and such. Teeg is also a backbreaker against Miracles, Combo, and Elves. Grip is also a hedge against Miracles/Equipment. I figure the top decks I'll be facing at SCG Seattle will be:
Sneak and Show/OmniTell
Painter
Death and Taxes
Miracles
Elves
Jund
Deathblade/Esperblade
ANT
Reanimator
BUG Delver
Patriot Delver
For Sneak and Show, I have Needle, Teeg, Charm, and Grip. Chainer's could be Diabolic Edict. Here's a match where I'd likely want Thalia just to slow them down.
For Painter, I've got Needle, Grip, and Runed Halos. It's a lot for them to fight through, especially with STP, Decay, and Charm if I want to.
Against DnT, I have Needle if I need to for vial, and Golgari charms to sweep. I feel like I'm definitely not boarding in a ton here, slots might have to come in for this matchup; I need to test more.
Against Miracles, we have too many cards to bring in. Ideally, I would like Deed here. It prevents them from Entreating and can knock out the CB/Top engine, and can be cast under Teeg (EE cannot).
Against Elves, we have Teeg, Needle, and Golgari Charm. The matchup still isn't great because sometimes, they just get there.
Against Punishing Jund, we have the extra Ooze to bring in, Life from the Loam, and possibly the Edict. Souls is good here, for sure. Deed would also be fine.
Against Deathblade, we have Runed Halo for TNN (especially a good answer to an equipped TNN. Making them use their mana to re-equip to another creature would certainly be nice); Krosan Grip, and chainer's Edict. I feel a little light in this matchup, but we'll see what happens.
Against ANT, we have Runed Halo for Tendrils, and Gaddock Teeg to prevent Past in Flames/Tendrils/AdN. Grip also can hit LED if they play them out to avoid discard. I miss Thalia here.
Against Reanimator, we could bring in the Ooze and Pithing Needles. Runed Halo also works, since if you Runed Halo Griselbrand, it means they need to go deeper for another Reanimation target to actually start to clock you.
For BUg Delver, I want to bring in Ooze and Loam and Edict.
For Patriot Delver, again, we have Charm and Halo for TNN, Edict, and Grip. I would also bring in Ooze to offset the life loss here.
In total, I feel like I could have a few more cards against Reanimator, BUG, Jund, Elves, and DnT. Maybe I don't need them, I haven't done 50 games with each matchup to tell. Jund requires a bigger, over the top threat they can't handle or something to neuter the Fires Combo whereas Elves and DnT require sweepers, which is where Deed/Deluge would come in handy. BUG requires additional cheap removal (I think). Reanimator does just require more dedicated hate slots, like Dredge. Thalia would slow Reanimator down, but I don't see a lot of ANT at the top tables.
-Matt
i am allready looking forward to your report Matt
i am specially intrested in your sideboard, which looks a bit unorthodox, specially no hatebears other than teeg, but runed halo seems intresting, even if i am very sceptical about it
i definitely want to know how it worked out as detailed as possible
on a sidenote, have you thought of darkblast for your sideboard? i think it could be great in the elves matchup, obviously D&T (of this i am sure, i have D&T myself), and may be usefull as extra removal in the BUG matchup, but probably only in rare occasions
EDIT: i have a question for all of you guys as well.
if you have only 5 slots to get a SFM package in your list with 3 of the 5 being SFM herself,.... what would your 2 equips of choice be?
Since you play Sylvan Library as a 3-of, wouldn't a singleton Abundance be of some value? Not that the card is that terrible on its own.
It would, but at 4 mana, I don't think it's doing enough.Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
-Matt
Hi guys,
I switched from Team America to this deck last weekend and I like it very much!
Matt, your Sideboard looks really solid and most of your reasoning makes sense! Can you explain why you don't run Humn to Tourach main? I reduced it to 2 main due to the manarequirement but I don't really want to miss it's power.
Also, do you think Loam in the board is good enough? I used to run it in TA also against Jund to compensate the carddisadvantage of their hymns, but it wasn't very useful there... Runed Halo against Painter is a really good idea, I like that very much!
I would bring in Lingering Souls against BUG as well btw.
Has anyone thought about Polukranos, World Eater against Jund? Seems especially funny with Karakas ;)
If you can only run two equipment hands down jitte and sofi. Sols has its merits if your meta really demands it, but batter skull is a liability and puts pressure on stoneforge to stay alive.
Edit- against jund sigarda and master of the wild hunt are two bombs that take over the matchup.
The reason I'm not running Hymn is that there's already SO MANY 2 drops in the deck, and I want to be able to grab exactly what I want. Hymn can be devastating, but after reading all the testing the BUG guys were doing, most people were going with Thoughtseize over Hymn, so I just went with IoK over Hymn. Maybe I'll switch it back, but we'll see. I like grabbing EXACTLY what I want, though. Be it equipment, Liliana, TNN, etc.
Sigarda would be a nice beater once again. Great against Miracles (shroud and all) as well as Jund, and great against Liliana. Might be a good one-of.
-Matt
thanks, its just the same i thought it would be best
so at last even i will be trying SFM again (even if i did not really like him initially in The Rock)
once i get the time i will try the following list
23 LANDS
3 wasteland
2 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
3 overgrown tomb
2 godless shrine
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswepth heath
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
17 CREATURES
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
3 stoneforge mystic
2 knight of the reliquary
21 SPELLS
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 sylvan library
2 green sun's zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
2 liliana of the veil
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
SIDEBOARD (current one, but rework depends on how Matts board with RUNED HALO will perform)
3 extirpate
2 golgari charm
1 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2-3 lingering souls
2-3 open slots
MY THOUGHTS AND CHOICES
the open slots in the sideboard will be depending on the meta i will be facing, the options that come to mind are the following
pinthing needle, darkblast, another sword of X & Y, life from the loam, toxic deluge, tidehollow sculler, thalia, second deed, 3rd golgari charm, hymn to tourach, diabolic/chainers edict
some choices in the main that might look strange are the 2 dryad arbors. Appearingly i am the only one that uses this tech, together with equipment and cabal therapy this one should be quite a nice tech.
together with GSZ cabal therapy can blow out an opponent on turn 2 even more brutal then a hymn to tourach might be able
cabal therapy was the main reason for me to use 2 dryad arbors (lingerig souls is not absolutely needed to run cabal therapy profitably)
knight of the reliquary is still in the list even if most cut her completely, because she is still good in a lot of matchups, just not as good as she was, but against show and tell i do not want to miss her
extirpate is still my choice for gravehate as i prefer uncounterability over-mana (plus with shocklands allready it would get a bit to much lifeloss)
please comment and criticize the hell out of the list
If you plan to see a lot of Miracles, which I think you will in Europe especially, pack another Teeg and another Deed in the board. Miracles CANNOT win through a Deed on board unless they Jace you out.thanks, its just the same i thought it would be best
so at last even i will be trying SFM again (even if i did not really like him initially in The Rock)
once i get the time i will try the following list
23 LANDS
3 wasteland
2 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
3 overgrown tomb
2 godless shrine
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswepth heath
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
17 CREATURES
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
3 stoneforge mystic
2 knight of the reliquary
21 SPELLS
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 sylvan library
2 green sun's zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
2 liliana of the veil
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
SIDEBOARD (current one, but rework depends on how Matts board with RUNED HALO will perform)
3 extirpate
2 golgari charm
1 pernicious deed
2 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2-3 lingering souls
2-3 open slots
MY THOUGHTS AND CHOICES
the open slots in the sideboard will be depending on the meta i will be facing, the options that come to mind are the following
pinthing needle, darkblast, another sword of X & Y, life from the loam, toxic deluge, tidehollow sculler, thalia, second deed, 3rd golgari charm, hymn to tourach, diabolic/chainers edict
some choices in the main that might look strange are the 2 dryad arbors. Appearingly i am the only one that uses this tech, together with equipment and cabal therapy this one should be quite a nice tech.
together with GSZ cabal therapy can blow out an opponent on turn 2 even more brutal then a hymn to tourach might be able
cabal therapy was the main reason for me to use 2 dryad arbors (lingerig souls is not absolutely needed to run cabal therapy profitably)
knight of the reliquary is still in the list even if most cut her completely, because she is still good in a lot of matchups, just not as good as she was, but against show and tell i do not want to miss her
extirpate is still my choice for gravehate as i prefer uncounterability over
please comment and criticize the hell out of the list
I'll be testing Halo tonight, but everyone I have talked to who has been testing it as well said it was testing very well. It certainly comes out in non Combo, non TNN, but overall they were very happy. Hits Tendrils, TNN, Jace, Liliana, Punishing Fires, Release the Ants, etc.
-Matt
So I had a conversation with some friends tonight regarding the usefulness of Runed Halo. I argued my side, they said theirs.
We came to the conclusion that the problem is not really TNN, but mainly an equipped TNN. Golgari Charm handles an unequipped TNN, but an equipped TNN with another creature on the field is essentially unwinnable, which is why I wanted to run Runed Halo. Now, even though Runed Halo does have anti-Combo applications as well, we could store up other matchups by changing Runed Halos out.
So, at the moment, I'm running 2 Halo, 1 Grip, and 2 Golgari Charm. By switching to 2 Grip, 3 Charm and 0 Halo, Grip is better against Equipment, Sneak Attack, and Miracles. Golgari Charm is great against Elves/DnT, which we wanted more cards against anyway.
This is not to say running Halo is wrong, but just jamming an extra Charm and Grip might be enough. With Thalia no longer in the board, Combo decks will go off faster against us, but I'm also running an extra Teeg in the side, as well as 6 pieces of discard main. I think Storm based combo has subsided a bit, so Runed Halo has a tad less value. Grip is better (generally) against OmniTell.
Thoughts? I'm basically saying Runed Halo should still work out fine, but just jamming another Grip and Charm might also just do the truck and have more widespread application. You really can't bring in Halo against Elves/DnT, but Charm you sure can.
EDIT: Another card that could be useful: Phyrexian Metamorph. Copy a Goyf, Equipment, or just a TNN to have for your own. Thoughts?
-Matt
Last edited by sdematt; 03-05-2014 at 03:25 PM.
Once you put it down into words, it starts to sound really solid. I'll always advocate for cards that have broad application across the meta, and thus it seems like this move makes a lot of sense. Elves can't be a very good matchup, and D&T is always tight; I like having cards like Charm that are good against 3+ common decks (its still good vs TNN after all), but its even better when, by having 3 charm, you're almost guaranteed to have a backbreaking card for the matchups that can be tight (ie Elves & D&T, at least).
The other thing to consider here would be 2 Grip, 2 Charm, 1 Zealous Persecution; diversifying Hate is always good, and with 2 Grip you don't need to rely on the disenchant mode of Charm as much.
Regarding the 6 Discard effects: If you do find yourself up against Fast Combo, I think having the pinpoint discard will be slightly more effective than Hymn for you, in that, while Hymn can be backbreaking vs ANT, you know that you're going to hit at least 1 business spell with the 1 mana ones and moreover will be able to see their hand, letting you craft your beatdown/clock plan more effectively. Not to mention, 1 mana discard is better against things like, godforbid, Dredge, or Oops All Spells, AND lets you pluck those TNN out of the opponents hand if you are lucky (Hymn guarantees no such thing). This is obviously highlighting my preference for maindeck cards to be as good in as many matches as possible. Still I might shave it down to 5 effects.
Edit: I *might* cut the 6th discard effect for another GSZ target... Teeg main? Miracles is a thing again, after all ;) And maybe the 3rd Lil for something too.
Then I think cutting Diabolic Edict from my current board for Phyrexian Metamorph could also work. Both are TNN "hate," but Metamorph also works in a ton of other matchups. Well, not a ton, but still.
-Matt
Traded away my Phyrexian Obliterators, so jammed Tarmogoyfs into my Gate list is come up with this pile for a 26-man local.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Agent of the Fates
17
3 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Disfigure
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
3 Geth's Verdict
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
21
22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Swamp
3 Bayou
SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Perish
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
Went 3-0-1, beating Miracles, Mono-Red Sneak Attack and UWR Delver and drawing (unintentionally) against Lands. Lost to Jund in the quarters when he opened T1 DRS every game and I had to timewalk myself a few times to Darkblast his threats.
List is obviously tuned for a TNN meta, with the edict effects being pretty decent against SnS and Mono-Red as well. Agent of Fates+Darkblast did well for me in previous tournaments, but underperformed tonight. Should probably replace with some amount of Disfigure/Dismembers? Lack of basic Forest to fetch for also hurt, since I never drew Deathrite Shaman when he was relevant and my Bayous were obviously beacons for Wasteland (kind of defeating the purpose of being near-mono black). Having a basic forest and wanting to cast Gatekeeper is pretty miserable though. The sideboard is also all over the place, some of the removal should probably be more Pithing Needles or something.
Interesting list, Tyrio. Definitely looks tuned for anti-TNN.
Played my list against Esperblade and Patriot for a bit tonight, pre-board. It felt REALLY good. I won 3 of 5 of the Esperblade matches preboard. The ones I lost are ones where I had 2 IoK and he had 2 Force, 2 Jace, 1 Verdict and 2 land opener and won, and the other I couldn't draw any lands.
Sylvan was a beating for both Esper and Patriot, as I expected. Liliana was great all the time. Not having Qasali lost me a game against Patriot, but I had also never drawn Sylvan, Decay, or any action either.
I feel like we have better stuff to bring in than they do, barring Rest in Peace. Goyf was pretty good for us, but Equipment is also great, even when Goyf is a 0/1.
IoK was fine, but could also by Cabal Therapy again, especially if I decide that Souls is the way to go, but I'm not certain it is. They might jsut become Disfigure or something, we'll see.
I think I'll be moving my board towards:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zealous Persecution/Toxic Deluge/charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Open/Lingering Souls
I have to do a matchup-by-matchup in and out guide to see if I'm overboarded or not for particular matchups to really shake out the final few slots.
-Matt
just had some intresting thought about miracles
isn't deed on board + runed halo on jace an allmost autowin against them? correct me if i am wrong
They do play the one-of Disenchant, so it's not a 100% lockout, but still. It's a painful place for them to be in, for sure.
Ideally, what you want to do is get them off of their Karakas, land Teeg and protect him, then just pressure them with Equipment.
-Matt
SdeMatt how come you don't play any KotR?
Also whats the consensus on SDT vs Sylvan Library? Even though Sylvan is more vulnerable, the option of getting the extra cards is worth it?
I love the synergy between Dryad Arbor, fetches, and equipments.
matt, i hope you do not mind if i try answering this questions :P
KotR today is more like a metacall because since DRS KotR is not that big anymore, making it a "costly" tarmogoyf most of the time
her usefullness is restricted to certain matchups where you either want/need a big beater or a karakas-tutor like in the show & tell matchups
depending on the opponents you probably will be facing kotr gets a MD-slot or nothing
from my expierience kotr is the most usefull in following matchups (if i am mistaken please correct me, if i missed something please add the matchups):
RUG
Show&Tell
Jund
reanimator
maybe maverick?
on the SDT vs Sylvan Library topic......... this too depends a bit on the meta you are facing.
if you are facing for example more UW-decks like miracles or stoneblade library is probably superior
if you are facing more decks that pack abrupt decay for example SDTs resilience is very usefull
here it comes down to personal preference as well........ i played both, and loved both
the synergy between dryad arbor, fetches, equipment,.... also GSZ and cabal therapy is awesome.... this is the reason i am playing 2 dryad arbors in my list (but seemingly i am the only one that does :P)
again, if there is something to add, or correct, please do so :)
I used to play KotR, but it's not good enough in the TNN matchups anymore. It's, quite literally, a 3-mana do nothing. Sure, it wastelands and gets big, but consider the problems.
In the Tempo TNN matchups, it's easy to Daze and suffers against Rest in Peace.
In the Control TNN matchups, they are running more basic lands now so Wastelocking is harder to do. Waste also does nothing against TNN.
As well, much of the time, you're attempting to cast SFM on Turn 2, and then hold up SFM to Vial in Equipment on Turn 3. Knight then moves from getting slammed Turn 3 to slammed Turn 4 through 5. It's just not doing enough for the mana investment and the time it takes to set up. It's great to have in some matchups, but in others, it has become quite a liability. I ran 4 for a long time, then cut to 3. Then cut to 2 in September, then cut to 1 against TNN, then just cut all together since 1 wasn't pulling its weight.
This isn't to say I think Knight is terrible, I just think there's better things we can do with our cards at 3 mana. Ex. Liliana.
Both are good, but SDT was bad in a deck like this for a few reasons. You're ALWAYS trying to jam answers or threats in this deck. On Turn 1, you're trying to develop mana or disrupt their hand. Turn 2, SFM/Confidant/Goyf. Turn 3, do something else. Top, while very solid in Miracles, is really good since you don't actually have to play a lot of stuff on your turn and you want the manipulation on your opponents turn and at any time. Top doesn't draw you extra cards without losing it, and the mana lost spinning in the early turns is critical time wasted. I learned this the hard way playing against Tempo decks about 18 months ago and I found it bad to try to Top into answers in a deck like this, especially when your answers are rarely X-for-1.SDT vs. Library
Sylvan Library provides a "set it and forget it" option, saving yourself critical mana in the early turns so you can develop your board while simultaneously allowing you to draw extra cards without losing the Library itself. It's not as good as Top is with Dark Confidant, but it's great. In some matchups, drawing 3 cards is the right call, and most of the time, you're drawing an extra card, no problem, on the first turn you get to Sylvan. It's excellent against Control and Tempo, whereas Top is better against Control.
dryad Arbor is a cute trick I've loved for a long time. With Knight it was slightly better, but keeping fetches up is nice especially since more decks are running Liliana to combat TNN. Arbor allows you to leave Equipment on board even if your creatures die, then just end step fetch and hook up on your turn to swing in. It's been spectacular.I love the synergy between Dryad Arbor, fetches, and equipments.
-Matt
Is Goyf not worse against RiP? Or is your logic that its easier to grow goyf back to a formidable size once RiP has been removed (with Knight never being 0 power even with RiP in play)?
Without knight, is it even worth it to run utility lands like Karakas? How can we reliably get it? In a list I was brewing, I had Karakas and Bojuka Bog as relevant tutor targets (in addition to wasteland obviously).
I really want to cast GSZ, but how has it been working for you as a 1 of? I want to up the GSZ count and add more green creatures, though this is definitely a bias that is clouding my deck building.
Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions, as I am new to the Archetype (got sick of casting Delver and Ponder)
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