Nastaboi, would you mind sharing some of your sideboard strategy? I think most things are obvious on what you would bring in and when, but what do you generally take out?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Actually I just writed a sb guide to my friend trying the deck. It can be found HERE. This guide assumes same MD as in Paris and following test SB:
1 disfigure
1 golgari charm
1 loam
3 tarmo
2 clique
2 flusterstorm
2 blue elemental blast
2 surgical
1 swan song
Just remember not to follow the guide too strict but rather adapt to your opponent's specific build, the way he plays and time left in the round. Also, feel free to ask/comment/critisize.
Well I have been playing miracles for two years now and it is not quite like that. I play two Blood Moon without ET. Otherwise it is easy.Originally Posted by Nastaboi
You have done a fantastic job with the SB-list but there are a few things I am not sure about;
ANT - we want to keep the blue count as high as possible. Jace isnt amazing but it is good. Esp. when we know his hand. Decay is quite terrible. (I know we can blow his LED) Liliana is definetly worse than Jace here. (she is only relevant after second/third use) Standstill can be tricky here - I lost many games 5 turns after resolved Standstill. :(
I do not like this matchup without Snapcaster. Shaman is the boss.
Thank you for your comment.
Duress paired with your usual countermagic will beat ANT. As an aside, it's actually extremely good vs most combo decks.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Against storm combo you'll never get to cast Jace, so it's only a random blue card to pitch. You can't cast Standstill early either, but after you have some pressure on board, you can play Standstill and leave some mana up, so it's marginally better. You'll already adding more blue cards than removing them, so I prefer cards that will sometimes get cast to ones you'll just keep as a force fodder. I don't like Decay that much either and don't always keep them in, even though they hit Swarm/Confidant as well.
Liliana is different because you can get her out turn 2 and start pressuring their hand immediately. Also, castable while keeping mana up. Storm combo isn't the strongest matchup and you are definitely an underdog preboard, but sideboarded games are slightly favourable, making the matchup about even.
I used to play Snapcasters before printing of True-Name, but Liliana is so much better against the metagame right now. I do like chaining Thoughtseizes with Snapcaster, but don't feel like trying him again until meta changes a bit.
this list has been great for me (i.e. i haven't lost with it yet) against storm and omni:
//Artifact Creature (4)
4 Baleful Strix
//Creature (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Enchantment (7)
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
//Instant (18)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
//Planeswalker (5)
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
//Sorcery (1)
1 Life from the Loam
//Land (24)
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
notice the sideboard, though i could really use -1 Vendilion Clique +1 Surgical Extraction.
I'm playing 2x Dimir Charm instead of the 1/1 Innocent Blood/Counterspell split. Since you have no (good) targets for bolt or abrupt decay, not hitting instants has been a non-issue.
I'd take this to SCG Seattle in a couple of weeks, but there aren't enough board slots to deal with the randomness i'm sure to face in the early rounds. plus 9-10 rounds of landstill = kidney failure.
@warfordium on twitter.
Regarding sideboard plans, versus storm combo and combo in general, I've had success sideboarding out most of the high casting costs and some lands, and siding in lots of fast answers/discard and lots of Cliques. Post sideboard I try to switch to a fishlike gameplay. Assuming that I play
3 Deathrites
1 Clique
4 Factories
1 Tarpit
maindeck, I would side out 2 lands (wastelands) and 2-3 Jaces, some number of slow answers like -2 Deed (obviously this depends if I'm playing vs a deck that has Empty the Warrens as a possible win con) and some Decays and Disfigures (again, this depending if I expect Dark Confidants or Xantid Swarms. Disfigures come out first because Decays can deal with Needles as well). Bringing in a combination of:
Additional Cliques (I like to have 3 post side versus ALL combo and control decks)
1 Flusterstorm/ Swan Song is a fine choice as well as it counters Sneak Attack
3 Thoughtseize
Some Extirpates ( additional information are INVALUABLE in these match ups, plus is a handy tool vs Pif loops, and obv. reanimator)
Post side the deck is configured like a bug fish deck, with lots of disruption pieces and small sized critters. It's an alternative approach that I liked a lot.
PS. I don't really like sideboarding in Goyfs, I think Cliques are almost always your best bet… and Clique eot + Factory is exactly the same clock.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I will preface this by saying I haven't played the deck but I was very curious about some SB techniques.
Against RUG, how come you leave FoWs in and take out Snare? Disfigure only hits delvers. Thoughtseize still seems live against them and the info seems like it would be very valuable. Also, Goyfs with Pernicious deed?
Why leave in decays against sneak and show?
Why leave in decays against storm (worried about carpet of flowers / xantid swarm)?
Why leave in decays against reanimator (I don't see many lists with animate dead anymore)?
you deed on 1 for goose and delver (both sides). their tarmogoyf + your tarmogoyf + disfigure = one dead tarmogoyf.
not that i agree with the tarmogoyf plan (i prefer clique, which lets you deed on 2), but this part of the strategy is reasonable.
@warfordium on twitter.
its for anti-hate permanents such as Pithing Needle, Defense Grid, bugs, bobs, etc. Storm players have the choice of playing out LEDs/Petals or losing them to discard—you can punish them with AD.
@warfordium on twitter.
Hey, that's exactly what I do. I used to sb out some Wastes when I played 24-25 land, but with present 23-land configuration I don't feel like taking unnecessary risk for screw. Also random waste can add up nicely with other disruption.
Of course I like Clique more, but I feel more pressure is needed. Goyfs have some additional utility working as blockers in some matchups, and you can sb them in when you have to close the match with just couple of minutes in clock.PS. I don't really like sideboarding in Goyfs, I think Cliques are almost always your best bet… and Clique eot + Factory is exactly the same clock.
Against RUG, stopping their 1st threat at any cost is priority. Thus FoW and Disfigure. Disfigure only hits Delvers, but Snare only hits Goyfs on stack while Disfigure also works on resolved Delvers. Thoughtseize is awful when all their cards cost the same or even less, and you bolt yourself in progress. I have sided in both Clique and Goyf. Neither is good, but still better than alternatives. I prefer Goyf as Clique costs more and Goyf blocks 2/3 their creatures and lives where Clique just trades or chumps. However, some RUG players like to side in Submerge. In that case, Clique is slightly better.Against RUG, how come you leave FoWs in and take out Snare? Disfigure only hits delvers. Thoughtseize still seems live against them and the info seems like it would be very valuable. Also, Goyfs with Pernicious deed?
Blood Moon. Then you just have to keep BG up all the game. The good thing is, if you can kill their first Moon, they won't necessarily have much else and you have time to develop your own game plan.Why leave in decays against sneak and show?
These and Confidants. They also hit LED, and bad but reasonably costed disruption is still better than 3-mana removal or 4-mana planeswalkers.Why leave in decays against storm (worried about carpet of flowers / xantid swarm)?
They will surely bring in Pitching Needles, which are really good against you. One or two Decays should be sufficient though. Sometimes you might also see transformative SB plan where they bring in cheap beaters while leaving in some combo parts.Why leave in decays against reanimator (I don't see many lists with animate dead anymore)?
Last edited by Nastaboi; 03-05-2014 at 05:38 AM.
hi all. I have been playing BUG control for a while now (walkers build) and I have been very content with the deck. I was wondering for which MUs is standstill truly beneficial as compared to more counters/discard/removals and then close the game with planeswalkers. Delver and æter vial are more common than ever so I wonder how often you guys find standstill to be akward.
I personally dislike the amount of colorless mana sources/tap lands that standstill forces to include in the list.
I am testing a combo finish in the form of intuition -> thespian stage + dark depths + loam. One copy of loam is good in the deck anyway and intuition has some other fringe plays besides keeping the blue count up. Sometimes you just win the game out of nowhere but I have not decided whether it is too cute.
I look forward to hear you thoughts.
So I don't have experience with this deck, but from an outsider perspective, I don't understand running Deathrite Shamans with Pernicious Deed and Standstill. Even if the Deathrite is the lone thing on the board with a Standstill down, the graveyard will run out of instants and sorceries so quickly it would seem. And then if you have to use a Pernicious Deed, he will die... I also don't understand the Wastelands, we're not a RUG Delver tempo deck, we're slow, and our land drops matter more to us. Why would we try to make them not be able to play spells when there's a Standstill down anyway?
What about something like this:
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Swamp
3 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Standstill
2 Dismiss
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
With a sideboard divided into anti-Delver decks with Innocent Blood, and anti-combo decks with Flusterstorm. The main deck is ambiguous between anti-combo and anti-fair deck.
i love me some man lands, but thats a lot of non-T1 Veteran explorers. i started to brew up a faerie conclave Ur landstill list a while back, but its just better as american with delver and geist and factories.
the main reason to run jace landstill is deed. before return to ravnica it was hard to survive to land deed and wipe the board (on the same turn) in the face of geese, delvers, and stifle. in our playgroup's testing, baleful strix started to bridge the gap but was too susceptible to removal.
then came abrupt decay and deathrite, both of which helped in a couple of ways.
fast aggro (zoo, goblins, merfolk), which was already suffering due to batterskull were further nerfed by a) uncounterable removal, b) a t1 blocker that survived lackey, and c) some incidental life gain. it also made team america viable again and made some competition for RUG Delver.
so, your options are to lean on abrupt decay to get to deed mana, or to lean on deathrite shaman. i prefer the former with strix and snapcaster—they both immediately gain value and you're happy to use them as mini-fogs—it huts less to lose them after a deed.
i'd like to know how games play out with deathrite shaman from those pilots who use him alongside deed.
finally, as for Wastelands, they do win you games on the basis of loam lock. my post-board wins against RUG seem to come from keeping them off bolts (their usual finisher) by keeping them off red via wasteland and/or extraction. there are also some problem lands like opposing factories, opposing wastes, and nowadays Dark Depths which you have to be able to handle—keeping blade lists from tar pits/jace mana is also important. i wish i could play 1.5 because they don't make coloured mana, yet you want to see them midway though a game.
@warfordium on twitter.
You play Deathrite Shaman. They remove it, which means they can't develop their board that turn. You're traded 1-for-1 and gained some tempo.
You play Deathrite Shaman. They have to commit on board, you play Deed and trade 3-for-2 or just 2-for-2 and they are low on threats.
You play Deathrite Shaman. They play some threats, but you answer with other removal or planeswalkers and Shaman starts eating their life total.
You play Deathrite Shaman. They have next to nothing, and you shuffle your Deed back with Jace/Brainstorm.
My point is that planeswalkers and Standstill gives you so much card advantage, that you can just burn your Shamans/Brainstorm/Deeds/removal early to survive to midgame and let your big cards take over. You can sacrifice some card advantage for tempo, you don't have to milk every percentage point from Shaman/Deed/Brainstorm early on. For the same reason I want my curve to start from one, not from two.
Hey Nataboi, (and everybody)
I really like the deck. I played it yesterday and for the first time in years I managed 0:3 -> bye. I did not always played optimaly. Never mind.
A few things I have noticed:
1) Clumsy draws. Often your hand are really sketchy. We can catch up with deed and standstill but somtimes we cant.
2) Sometimes there is nothing we can do - double wateland, double daze or pierce and some threads. Pernicious Deed is too precious to play it into daze but sometimes ther is no other possibility. Way too often we can't play around it.
3) We must play either shaman or some basics. I prefer shaman. (there no way not runing basics NOR shaman)
4) I have always played two Loam. I am not saying it is perfect set - but Loam is not that much about grinding as it is about keeping our land drops. Especialy when we think aoubt the point 2.
5) I love Standstill - but as we all know it is bad against good players and good against bad players. It happened to me so many times - I start play land, opponets play one and then I cast standstill - resolves. He plays lands like a pro. I miss mi next five landrops. How to deal with that?
6) Goyf in the board are just amazing. Board games that take 5mins (shuffling included?). Yes please!
7) We can deal with anything but sometimes we do not have the right cards for the right time. Decay, Disfigure, Deed, Snare. Fow... But sometimes you need something else.
I always compare it with Miracles which is the other deck I play - it can not deal with artifacts or enchantments but for W it wipes the board out. It even kill mother+revoker which is difficult for us to deal with. (ok they have a hard time with mother+teeg - we dont); my point is that their card selection is amazing - ponders nad tops+fetches and cards that are simply more flexible really make the difference. Not to mention the basic lands.
8) I still do not understand Spell Snare. It is good when we are on draw and they play something turn two, against Mystic, Snapcaster, Hymn, Infernal Tutor... What else? Pierce counters everything (non-creature) early on (SDT, Hymn, Vial, Thoughtseize, Natural Order, Jace; after board Choke, CAtaclysm...) and almost everything that cost 3+ later (with wasteland). I am not criticising - I just want to understand :-)
For the reference here is my decklist from the times before TNN: (I admit EE are probably not viable anymore)
4shaman
2caster
3standstill
4brainstorm
3fow
2cspell
2spierce
2disfigure
4decay
2ee
3lili
3jace
2life
4sea, 2tropico, 2bayou, 4wasteland, 3mishra, 1ctp, 8fetch
side:
3goyf
3tseize
3flusterstorm
1surgical
1spellbomb
1darkblast
1plague
2dedd.
I really want this deck to work!
Tomáš
thanks for this. i bet the T2 disfigure into standstill is nice to hit with a deathrite on board…
there's a fair amount of wasteland and painter in Vancouver's legacy scene so i'm inclined to swap a couple of duals for basics, but i'll try your deck structure out sometime soon. your blue blasts in the board are an efficient card when moon, burn, bolts, and blasts are major spoilers to the deck.
@warfordium on twitter.
I strongly suggest staying away from basic lands. Adding couple of basics doesn't make you more likely to survive Blood Moon, but it does make you more vulnerable to Wasteland. You can't really fetch basics early and spells off them. If you have two basics in play, you can't cast all your cheap spells off them. If you have a basic and a dual and they waste your dual, you're worse off than with two duals. Sometimes they do have two or three wastes in a row and you just lose, but with basics they don't even need those wastes as you can't cast the spell you need anyway.
in a 3 DRS build i can get behind this. i tried 2x Kitchen Finks in the board yesterday knowing there were 2x Merfolk, 2x Burn, 1x Miracles in the tournament yesterday, but found myself unable to cast them having fetched basic swamp and island against burn as a hedge against Price.
i should just give up the burn matchup.
new thought: how hard would it be to shoehorn Depths/Stage into this shell?
@warfordium on twitter.
Hydroblast is ok if you are really concerned about this matchup. In a ur burn infested meta I would not run BUG Landstill anyways. If it is just a marginal presence in your metagame you can just ignore it. Goyf helps a lot speeding your clock (this is probably the only matchup where Goyf is superior to Clique, because you just need a fast clock here), probably much more than Hydroblast.
Depths/Stage? You need to run 2-3 Intuition, and at least 2 turns to assemble it if your opponent doesn't have Wasteland… a bit clunky if you don't run Exploration or Mox Diamond. While I can see a BUG Loam deck work, it doesn't belong in a Landstill shell imho.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
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