I think that many players find legacy to be scary rather than just expensive. Many of them are willing to drop some good money on standard stuff to compete against the three top decks at the time, but feel intimidated when looking at the 8 Tier 1 and 30+ Tier 2 legacy decks they have to know about. I'm just not sure how many people are willing to put the effort forth to learn the format.
You mean Quirion Dryad:)Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Yes. Guys, you're right, and I even wrote that I liked it... until reently.
WotC lost (or thrown away) the possibility how to reprint the necessary stuff, they turned core set into kind of a fourth-per-year expansion and this is what bothers me. Ok, lets set aside the white borders, nobody likes them (although... see below), but why they simply couldn't keep the core sets stable and reprints-only?
Lets say that the reason why people don't buy packs is not because there are zero/few new cards in them, but becasue they contain zero/few good cards. (Set aside all other factors like tournament support or w-e else.) Saying that core sets with only the reprints would be unpopular is silly, it depends on the kind of reprints. Ok, RL kicks in, and it's sad, but there are hundreds of possible choices to select from.
Also, I simply don't get one thing. With three sets annualy, and a plethora of secondary products per year (be it Commander or whatever), are the MtG players so insatiable? There are what, thousandd new cards per each twleve mnths, so would the all-reprint set be so bad? i know, I know, the sales. But again, it's about power level and attraction of those reprints. I can see myself drafting (ok, rather sealed deck, but nvm) Magic 2015 if it would include cards like:
mythic rare: fetchlands, Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Horizon Canopy
rare: Mystic Gate, City of Brass, Cabal Coffers, Mossfire Valley, Underground River
uncommon: Shadowblood Ridge, Treetop Vilage, Tainted Peak, Shivan Oasis
common: Mountain Valley, Rakdos Carnarium (not that those matter).
Ok, there's a trouble with Standard legal Maze and Canopy (and others), so maybe this needs some tinkering, but honestly, painlands were reprinted year after year and I see no trouble with it. Add Sunpetal Grove and alikes, and this might be a base for the rare-lands of core set for a decades onwards, with a mythic rare slot ocuppied by w-e is the flavour of the season.
They brought th new mythic rare slot, so why not use it on necessary stuff?
Also, if this is far too dangerous/stupid becasue of Standard, there's always the Eternal Masters solution which they should have brought years and years ago. Core set could be still kept all-reprints (full of reasonable and well balanced cards; after all, it's meant for the starters...) with a quite "low" power level, and there can be (once in two or three years) a non-Standard-legal Chronicles print (with a more powerful stuff) to keep the prices of at least some cards reasonable. That's where you place your mythic fetchlands, mythic counterspells, mythic Werebears, mythic Strip Mines, etc.
Basically this is all about WHAT they want their product to be. Is it collectable? Or game? If collectable aspect is more important, then fine, don't reprint. If they emphasize the gaming aspect, then give the players the pieces they need, unless there's some need to keep the new players of Eternal, as many elitists and overall jerks argue even on this very site.
I hope this rant won't turn the thread into the "Bitching about... 2.0", but some things should be said.
Well, see, there's a big issue with your argument. Namely, the assumption that the new cards mean Wizards of the Coast are not reprinting valuable cards they would if core sets were still all reprints.
If Wizards of the Coast wanted to reprint some big money card, they would. There's still plenty of reprints in the core sets, and for that matter expansions. The fact there are a lot more reprints in core sets doesn't somehow mean they couldn't.
Now you might say "but there's less room for it, because there's fewer reprint cards!" Er... how? Do you think they actually thought something like "well, we want to put Tarmogoyf in this set, but we just don't have enough room for reprints. Sorry Tarmogoyf, it's Kalonian Tusker that makes the cut"? The reprint cards that are being cut for new ones are cards people didn't care about to begin with. More likely, the card that missed the cut thanks to Kalonian Tusker was something like Flinthoof Boar. Making Magic 2014 an all-reprint set wouldn't suddenly make them throw in something like Tarmogoyf. If they wanted to put that in a core set, they would put it in a core set. The fact there are new cards in a core set doesn't stop them from doing it.
The weirdest thing is that Magic 2014 actually had two fairly notable reprints in the form of Mutavault and Scavenging Ooze. I feel my points would still be just as valid if we were having this conversation after Magic 2013, but the most recent core set reprinted two reasonably notable eternal cards.
I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be reprints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow preventing them from reprinting cards players want reprinted, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it bad!" without any real reason as to why it makes it bad other than the fact that it's different.
Strawman's dead, long live the strawman.
I'm not saying that there's not enough place for the reprints due to slots being occupied by the new cards. I'm saying that instead of making shitty cards/sets, they could have kept the core set stable, all-reprints, and use them to bring necessary cards- Like they did with... hey, with Mutavault or Ooze.
The fact that there's plenty of reprints in core set doesn't mean that it can't be all-reprint, and it also deosn't mean that there's some need for new cards in them.
They print three expansions per year and crapload of Commander decks. Seriously, there are enough new cards, unless someone is greedy. Why on earth the core sets can't bring the old balanced useful stuff and keep the prices of staples a bit lower is beyond my understanding.
Also, next time you'll bring Goyf, google the word "balanced", please.
I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be with new prints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow good to print new cards, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it good!" without any real reason as to why it makes it good other than the fact that it's different.
If Wizards wanted to support Eternal formats they could do things such as print one Wasteland in every EDH deck; that would get the cards out there while not 'ruining' there precious standard and making one deck worth twice the others (Like Mind Seize). Unfortunately they do not care about Eternal formats; they are only just changing policies to get Modern cards into circulation. Eventually this might be good as there is a large crossover between Legacy and Modern we will have to see if Conspiracy gives us any useful cards. (either reprints or new cards)
Last edited by Jander78; 03-09-2014 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Font color
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
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They don't want Eternal formats to succeed because they can't milk it like Modern. Although their current pace shows that Wizards clearly can't keep up with the explosion of the Modern format, hence rising the prices of staples to ridiculous highs.
They make alot of questionable decisions, but get away with it because a) Richard Garfield laid foundation to an amazing game and b) they're lucky. Otherwise, shit like MTGO wouldn't fly. Sure, they're doing something right, considering the massive growth of Magic in the past few years, but who says they couldn't do even better if they didn't constantly fuck up somewhere?
"Protecting the collectors" clashes directly with "wanting to play the fucking game". How limited does the next reprint run of Tarmogoyf have to be to not piss of collectors? But what's the point of reprints if it can't (and shouldn't) drive down the price while making print numbers of the product so limited that can't cash in properly?
Last edited by Jander78; 03-09-2014 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Font color
Exactly. Exactly...
That's why I'm annoyed with the new policy of core sets. They bring new and new cards, moreover most of them are junk, while there are not enough older cards. Yes, their price is high due to popularity of game, and even if they print gorillion Wastelands, they sill don't need to drop in price, as demand might rise due to increased popularity. Still, WotC got a perfect tool how to decrease the prices of staples and get some cash out of Eternal, yet they are completely ignorant. The only reasonable consideration is that they don't want Eternal to grow, because it will bring even more troubles with RL, P9, duals, staples, etc.
But as the tim psses, they may completely lose any chance to do something about the reprints.
Specifically on lands:
They may easily reprint them in either core set (the Canopy cycle) or in some special Chronicles-like set (fetches and Legends/Dark stuff) or Commander products (Wasteland at least). Speaking of core sets, there are four rarities and there's no reason to bring new stuff in core sets, when there are lots of powerful and popular cards that could be brought back via the core sets. If they don't want them Standard legal, ok, fine, but what's the trouble with Chronicles/Anthologies/Beatbox reprints? The "collectors" tergiversation is plain silly, unless WotC wants hundreds of satisfied collectors (read: speculators/hoarders/elitists) instead of what? thousands, tens of thousands satisfied players?
I can't get the whole idea of old cards being somehow special and not desering reprint or w-e. Yes, some of them are overpowered/stupid, and there's RL that makes it even more complicated, but still, what's the trouble? And this is not only about the lands, but also (screw the RL) things like Sylvan Library, Mox Diamond, Volrath's Stronghold, Force of Will, whatever. Wouldn't it be better than usual crap in core set?
/derailing to "Bitching..." thread
It surprises me how few banned cards we have in Legacy and that the whole game has not imploded into just two or three playable decks.
As for Tarmogoyf who would have expected a card to go up in value because it got a reprint? It just goes to show that there short hall production run was nowhere near enough. At least MODO has special drafts for old sets so you still have a chance at getting cards.
Last edited by Jander78; 03-09-2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Font color
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
Online Trading Reference Checker
But why should it be all reprint? That's what you keep insisting, yet you have yet to make a single valid argument as to why. You keep claiming "they can use them to bring necessary cards." Okay... so how do they need to be all-reprint to do that? The only argument you've made does not actually relate to the conclusion you've brought forward. Whether or not there are new cards in core sets is unrelated to whether or not they use core sets to reprint valuable cards.
I have given reasons as to why they add new cards to core sets; it increases sales of core sets, increases interest in them, and stops them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard. From everything I can tell, people actually care about core sets a lot more now than when they were just a bunch of reprints. So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.I just really don't get this mania that core sets must be with new prints. Why? The best explanation I've seen is this vague claim that it's somehow good to print new cards, which for the reasons I've given, I feel is a poor argument. It all feels like some kind of "they changed it! That makes it good!" without any real reason as to why it makes it good other than the fact that it's different.
But why should not it be all reprint? That's what you keep insisting, yet you have yet to make a single valid argument as to why. You keep claiming "they can use them to bring new cards." Okay... but why they need to be all-new?
I have given reasons as to why they should keep old cards to core sets; it may increase sales of core sets, increase interest in them, and stop them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard. From everything I can tell, people may actually care about core sets a lot more if they were just a bunch of reasonable reprints like Sylvan Library or Force of Will. So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.
I think Legacy is going to continue to grow every year. I also think modern is going to grow as long as the DCI doesn't ban something like pod. I do not play modern, so I have no opinion there. I was looking at a collectibles price guide in a book store the other day, and its valuation of Underground sea was 100 bucks for a revised edition one. I cannot remember what the fetches were, but they were correspondingly cheaper. It is hard to understand this price guides valuation. It must not take tournament magic, and the market into consideration. It is strange how these formats can be so expensive, yet become increasingly more popular. The fetches are probably no longer capable of exponential price increases, so it is hard to tell where they will end up in price. It is also difficult to understand how these prices are where they are in terms of economic principles. I know in trading relative values are a good rule to use when making trades, but as far as actual dollar value it becomes much more complicated.
Pretty sure I'm just being trolled here (especially due to the rather silly "mimicking"), but I'll play along for a little longer, if only to show how stupendously bad your arguments are. Should you return to that silly mimicking after this post, that would just prove to everyone that you have no actual point to make.
Uh, except for the ones I gave in the post you quoted? The arguments you have yet to actually address? I'll tell you them again: The core sets previously were not particularly interesting. They mostly just mattered in "hey, this card is Standard legal." That's not something that gets someone excited about the set or gets them to buy them. It might get them excited about that specific card being Standard-legal again if it's been out of Standard for a while, but that's not any incentive to actually care about the sets themselves.
Indeed, this was cited as part of the reason they changed it. To quote Aaron Forsythe:
"Too often in the past, the core set has been completely marginalized by the enfranchised player base. It has been perceived as merely a list of cards legal in Standard and little more, and under those circumstances it tends to drift off shelves and out of the public consciousness, making it harder for new players to find the proper entry point."
Now, the argument you have made is about how they can use the core sets to reprint cards you want reprinted. But this is completely incidental to the question of whether the core sets should be entirely reprint. Let's take one you listed: Wasteland. If they wanted to reprint Wasteland in a core set, they are perfectly capable of doing so whether the core set is all reprint or just partially reprint.
Now, of course, they won't put Wasteland in a core set. Why not? Because they don't want that card in Standard because it's so powerful. I mean, if Encroaching Wastes, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge are their ideas of a fair land that can engage in land destruction, they're sure as heck not going to put Wasteland in Standard. I know some people disagree with the rather hard line they've taken against land destruction, but that's a completely separate issue. The point is this: Whether the core sets were all-reprint or (as they are now) partially reprint, Wasteland wouldn't be in them. Wasteland isn't getting reprinted in a core set because they don't want to reprint it in a core set--or any Standard set--period. Making the core set all reprint would do absolutely nothing to change that. It would still be seen as too strong.
And, indeed, let's take the argument that Wasteland would not be too powerful for Standard, or at least that dealing with it for a year in Standard would be worth the reprint. Let's suppose Wizards of the Coast accepted that. That means that... wait for it... they could put it in Magic 2015. A set that will be partially reprinted cards. If they decided they wanted Wasteland in a core set, they'd put it in, whether it was all reprints or partially reprints.
Heck, if they wanted to reprint Wasteland without putting it into Standard, they have plenty of options; From The Vaults, commander decks, judge promos, etc. But they haven't, because they obviously don't want to, or they don't want to enough that they haven't done anything more with it than thrown it into an "eventual judge promo" list. Would it be nice if they would bother to reprint Wasteland, at least a little? Of course. But it's incidental to the issue of core sets including new cards.
Wasteland is, of course, just one example. There are other cards that, for various reasons, they would be uninterested in putting in a core set. For example, the painlands hardly seem overpowered for Standard; I'd argue that the shocklands are actually more powerful in Standard than the painlands are. However, from my understanding the painlands were excised because new players didn't like having to pay life to get mana, making them a poor choice for core set dual lands (hence their replacement with the non-damaging check lands). To repeat myself yet again: Whether the core sets included new cards or not has nothing to do with whether or not they would put something like the painlands in the core sets. They are equally capable of doing so in either variety of core set.
This is the point I am making. Your argument that they should use the core sets to reprint in-demand expensive cards is unrelated to them including new cards. They are equally capable of reprinting those cards in an all-reprint set versus a partial-reprint set. Your argument is irrelevant to the question.
Of course, you have yet to actually answer that point. Instead, you seem to be trying to reword my posts in some poor attempt at mimicry--which is especially amusing because the points I have made against you do not apply to the points I have made. All it does is make you look foolish.
Uh, I never argued that. What I pointed out was that putting in new cards in core sets is a good decision from a business perspective for the reasons I have given.You keep claiming "they can use them to bring new cards."
See, this is why your arguments are failing hilariously. You're not actually making arguments; you're just taking what I say and trying to turn it around on me. But because the arguments I'm presenting don't work against me, you just make yourself look really stupid by doing so.
Core sets are not all new. Oh, look, yet another case where your attempt at mimicry backfired upon you, how quaint. Try making actual arguments next time.Okay... but why they need to be all-new?
No, you haven't. You've just tried to argue they should be reprinting older cards. That's it. And while the idea of reprinting those older cards is something I agree with, that's irrelevant to the actual issue of whether there should be new cards in core sets because, for the reasons I have given, deciding to revert the core sets to being only reprints would do nothing to make them decide to suddenly put stuff like Wasteland or Horizon Canopy or whatever else in them. These issues are unrelated.I have given reasons as to why they should keep old cards to core sets;
And that is completely unrelated to what you're arguing!it may increase sales of core sets, increase interest in them, and stop them from really just being a list of cards that are legal in Standard.
The argument you are making, of course, is that if they were to put all those big-money cards in a core set, it would make that core set sell better. That's true; one can be reasonably certain that the shocklands being in Return to Ravnica was part of why that set was such a huge success. And I'm sure the presence of Thoughtseize in Theros got some people to get packs of it they normally would have been uninterested in. However, as I have pointed out repeatedly and will do so yet again to try to make sure you finally manage to grasp my argument, that is irrelevant to the issue of the core sets having new cards. If they wanted to reprint those big-money cards in a core set, they can do it in one that is all reprint; they can also do it in one that is only partially reprints. If Wizards of the Coast wanted to put those cards in core sets, whether or not the core sets are completely reprints or only partially reprints is superfluous; they can do it either way. Theros had far fewer reprinted cards than a core set, and it included Thoughtseize, as I noted.
Good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, or I might have done a spit take. Do you think Sylvan Library or Force of Will are in any way close to reasonable reprints? Do you think Wizards of the Coast would actually put those back in Standard again?From everything I can tell, people may actually care about core sets a lot more if they were just a bunch of reasonable reprints like Sylvan Library or Force of Will.
Now, I'm sure someone might argue that they are, in fact, of reasonable power level for Standard. And maybe that's true; after all, Force of Will is much less impressive in an environment that does not have combo. But Wizards of the Coast does not consider them to be of the kind of power level they want in Standard. If the core sets were all reprints again, Force of Will and Sylvan Library would not return to them because they don't want them in Standard (and for that matter, they're also rather confusing cards from a rules standpoint, making them even less of a good choice for a core set). I know I'm repeating myself, and I know I'm repeating myself in mentioning I know I'm repeating myself, but to repeat myself yet again, I feel I have to because you seem unable to grasp this concept even though I have stated it multiple times.
Note that it wasn't until Magic 2010 that they started putting new cards into Standard. In all of those previous editions, Force of Will was never once put into a core set. Sylvan Library did make it into fourth and fifth edition (of course, Necropotence got into fifth edition, so this is hardly a ringing endorsement of the card being fair), but they dropped it afterwards and it was not in any of the later editions. Outside of being extremely powerful, it's also considered out-of-color for Green, so they're definitely not putting it back in Standard. Again: Going back to making the core sets just a bunch of reprints would not result in these cards being put into Standard. Also, again: If Wizards of the Coast changed their mind on those cards, and thought "hey, maybe Standard would be shaken up a bit if we added Force of Will," they can do that just as easily in the current model of core set as the previous model.
Nope, I've brought up actual arguments, whereas, again, all you have done is made an irrelevant argument about how they can use them to reprint valuable cards (and I have explained why in this post why it is irrelevant) and done this poor attempt at mimicry.So far, all you've done is bring up irrelevant issues.
Look: If you want Legacy staples reprinted, that's fine. I'd like to see them myself. But because core sets and expansions go through Standard, that immediately disqualifies most Legacy staples as being reprinted in them, because they don't want those cards in Standard. Some cards might be things they'd be willing to put into Standard--indeed, some, such as Scavenging Ooze, Mutavault, and Thoughtseize, have been--but the presence of new cards in their respective sets was not an apparent barrier to them returning.
Personally, I don't really care that much whether the core sets are just reprints or include new cards. But I can see some decent reasons as to why Wizards of the Coast made the change--and no real reasons as to why they shouldn't have.
Free Counterspells are broken combo or not. Make cheap threat. Removal already costs more than it. Hold up mana to counter everything. When you finally get to turn 4/5 and are able to play 2 removal Spells and I'm low on mana I counter one and then Force the next and now you're dead. Tempo is one of the most unfair decks we have in modern Magic. You simply don't get to play whilst I site here cracking you. Force is good in that deck. INCREDIBLY good. What are you going to do? Play it in control? No thanks!
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Well, you do realize that the title of this thread says something about "lands" and "prices" and "stabilize", don't you?
So I brought a hypothetical solution (all-reprints core set that may include some expensive lands - and maybe even spells) instead of crap.set they're now. There are enough new editions annualy (exactly three per year), where the WotC may place their new cards (and simultaneously make them more than a "that set with Thoughtseize"), while they may keep the core sets only reprints and give some necessary stuff in them. Like, you know, fetchlands for that Modem Fromát that people are so crazy about.
I think that a set full of powerful reprints might be interesting and popular, but alas, there's nothing to support my idea, as sadly there's no such an interesting and popular set full of powerful reprints.
Also, I don't get why your opinion that Core sets should bring new cards is more legitimate than my opinion that they could remain all-reprints and bring necessary old cards. Fortunately, I can give no fuck about you and your opinion.
And what do you know, as expected, after I spent all that time explaining and defending my points, Bed Decks Palyer manages to ignore all of them! Either he's not reading my messages, he's reading but not comprehending them, or he's just trolling. Either way, there's no purpose in spending more time arguing with someone who refuses to engage your points.
To be fair, I'm not reading either of your posts. Too much tldr.
You're the one who's trolling here.
I wrote that I'd love if core sets looked differently and you completely delegitimized my idea/wish, every my explanation and defense you simply ignored, etc. Sry, dude, there's nothing to discuss, esp. considering the topic is a heavily beaten horse long dead.
If you want, I'll pretend you won this argument. Then tomorrow you can tell me you changed your mind.
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