[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Jankwolf]

Or people could stop being intellectually dishonest and actually admit when a card has a weakness and there are other acceptable substitutes to that card and MD configurations instead of using whatever rhetoric comes to mind to justify their flavour of the month card choices in Dredge? I really don't care whether or not he plays Leyline or Chancellor, I've even played Leyline myself before back when he originally dismissed it because "leylines are bad in Dredge" and then he later accepted it, because it's efficacy is going to heavily depend on which Storm or Combo variants he faces. I was just pointing out that Leyline has an exploitable weakness to Empty the Warrens if they don't fear the counter because you time walk yourself out of the ability to deal with it and "don't worry, I always draw Leyline and a counter" is not an honest way to compare the cards merrits because even tho' he may math says you wont.

I probably play Manaless Dredge vs combo decks more than any one else because I play primarily on MTGO, and I spent a really long time trying to find any way I could to shore up the combo match up and I know each of those cards exploits. I'm not saying Chancellor is hands down better because it has its own problems, he's right about Gitaxian Probe or Chrome Mox burning thru' it but it still always costs them a card and they can't always afford to lose a card and go off immediately so you usually buy a turn to start dredging immediately and then hope they lose another turn to Cabal Therapying you, naming the wrong counter or they don't have enough mana to win immediately despite discarding the counter and you have a chance to dredge up a Cabal Therapy yourself next turn, but more importantly Chancellor gives EV vs Deathrite Shaman where Leyline doesn't really give EV vs any other tertiary cards in the format other than a Nihil Spellbomb which is really debeatably worth SBing it in for at all.

The fact of the matter is Storm is a bad match up and his hyperbole hasn't solved that, the problem is probably worse for me than it is for him and even I don't put all of my eggs into the anti-storm basket because Deathrite Shaman is a more important consideration. I've pretty much moved to Mana Dredge for the moment because even with Force of Will in the MD and the blue SB the match up vs combo is an uphill battle and Rest in Peace is still a major problem, things have gotten better but the deck is still a glass cannon instead of a daily driver. I could be entirely convinced that we should go back to playing Chancellor and Arbor in the MD and just SB Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal and run 7 slots vs Reanimator even tho' I think Gitaxian Probe/Whirlpool Rider gave this deck the first legitimate progression in years just because it's your win% vs Deathrite Shaman that's probably going to get you to and thru' the T8.

In short, Leyline and Chancellor are pretty equivalent vs Storm, actually I should say Chancellor is probably weaker vs Storm, but Chancellor provides added winning% vs arguably the most ubiquitous graveyard hate in the format so it should probably get the nod in a tournament setting. If he plays vs ANT like every other match up tho' then yeah Leyline of Sanctity is pretty damn good.

LoS and CotA are temporary solutions until you can get your CT's online. The only purpose they serve is to buy you time, not shut the game out. Your storm opponent will have to shift to find an answer for that instead of finding a way to beat you. FoW and DS are there to buy you even more time while you dredge and win. Not saying it's a great MU but it evens the playing field a bit.

[jimmythegreek]

Any manaless players in richmond?

[Jankwolf]

Any manaless players in richmond?

Alexandria count?

[slave]

Okay.... so it sounds like things have fired up since I've been away... for better or worse.

I'm not necessarily addressing the points quoted, more so the points made in the last couple of pages.
I agree and disagree with some points made.

ETW being a 1 of has no barring on the discussion, all of TES' threats either tutor for it or wish for it. I've just found Leyline gives them more chances to go off than Chancellor if they ignore it, you have to take stuff like Belcher and Hermit Druids into consideration as well.

Hermit Druid is banned, but I assume you've just been thinking of vintage.

RE: Chancellor VS Leyline, this is a moot point most of the time, as unless we have Chancellor on the field, all they need to do is let their first play get countered or play a 2nd mana source and they might be able to go stupid from there, however unlikely. I've had at least a couple of occasions where I've flashed my Chancellor to storm, only for them to still win on turn1.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point lol? It does have a huge deal to do with the discussion, in fact it has everything to do with this discussion because Empty the Warrens - against a Leyline of Sanctity and counterspells - literally has to be in the opponent's opening hand in order to win them the game undisturbed. Anything else gets countered, including key acceleration and tutors in the process. They aren't casting Duress, Probe, Therapy, Tendrils or anything else that targets me unless they go for Empty the Warrens - which has to be in their opening hand or drawn naturally/cantripped into.

And they literally have to try and fire it off by turn two - in the face of an unknown hand, no less - or risk having their hand shredded and combo'd out. We also get two draws to find another counter in the process, which is fine by me.

We're on the backfoot against Storm, even with Leyline and Blue counter in the 60.
Game 1 we usually lose VS Storm, they just sided in answers/hate > so are we saving counter for their tutor/wish etc., only for them to extract our win-cons?
I realise Storm like TES & ANT rarely run gravehate beyond extraction, due to them running Wishboard.side, but they also run counter of their own too, like REB/PB.
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Hollywood, I know you're aware of stuff like this, but I'm gonna put this down for the benefit of others.

Let's look at chances;
Bear in mind, this assumes we're on 8 counters, 19 blue cards total in the main (4 of all, apart from 3 Riders)
And a counter we find might be Shoal, which may not be all that useful on occasion.

4 leyline in the deck = ~40% chance of getting one in your 7. And we have <70% chance of getting a single counter (or more), and a ~93% chance of another blue card in hand.
(thats a <27% total chance of getting both LoS & Counter we can use turn1).

Lets say you've landed a LoS on turn1;
1) No counter in hand, but you do have a single blue card > chance of drawing a counter over two draws is ~28%.
If you already have a counter in hand, chance of drawing another counter ~24%.
2) No blue card in hand besides a single counter > chance of hitting blue over 2 draws is ~56%.
If you already have blue in hand other than a counter, finding another blue ~54%
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I agree with both feet that it's a great premise, I really do, but having both in hand doesn't look very likely....

Anyway;
My point is, without the counter as backup, the leyline plan only stops the simple storm decks that don't have a planB outside the typical Belcher/Tendrils etc., which just reeks of rookie pilot syndrome. Otherwise the best we could hope for is to slow them down a turn and/or deprive them discarding/probing us.
I DO agree that a resolved LoS will often be enough to buy you a turn should it land, who knows? maybe more?
....But even if we win game2 > game3 is likely to be pushin shit uphill when they side out Belcher/Tendrils etc. and concentrate on EtW.

With Leyline slowing us down a turn, we're a turn further away from casting Therapy or raping face with creatures. I find Therapy is the best tool we have against storm, besides winning of course. I love that Probe now belongs in the list for this reason!

Conversely, whilst Chancellor is only a 40% chance in our first grip, (like LoS), it invariably buys us a turn, instead of costing us one > possibly a net gain of two turns compared to LoS!
For me, the biggest decision would seem to be whether you're more afraid of Turn1 Storm, or Turn1 DRS.

LoS and CotA are temporary solutions until you can get your CT's online. The only purpose they serve is to buy you time, not shut the game out. Your storm opponent will have to shift to find an answer for that instead of finding a way to beat you. FoW and DS are there to buy you even more time while you dredge and win. Not saying it's a great MU but it evens the playing field a bit.

THIS. Buyin time to cast therapy and rape Storm (and fast combo)s' fuckin smug-bastard face.
I'm not sayin I have the answers boys.... hope the math helps you fella's.

Any manaless players in richmond?

You mean tigerland?
Go on, sing the song....

[Thrasher]

Hermit Druid=Oops, all spells.

Well put, that's a good analysis.

[Michael Keller]

The primary engine of the deck will never change. It's the pointless squabbling and bickering over personal preference that gets out of hand.

Look for the new primer soon.

[slave]

Hermit Druid=Oops, all spells.

.....
(roll eyes) Thanks Thrasher, and sorry FF.
Why is a deck named after a banned card it has never had, and will never have?

The primary engine of the deck will never change. It's the pointless squabbling and bickering over personal preference that gets out of hand.

Unless they print something that transforms the deck or we have a moment of inspiration, I agree.

I think we all agree that personal attacks over the internet are pathetic.
Be civil people, and remember, this is a card game designed to free you of your hard earned money.
But....
Isn't the bickering about this choice and that choice exactly what this thread (& every other thread), here on the source is all about in the first place?

[carefulmug]

Regarding the argument that occurred last page over Chancellor//Leyline in regards to TES and the like, I do think Hollywood exhibited some overly optimistic and stubborn behavior.

TES only having one EtW in their MD 60 does not necessitate that they naturally draw one or have one in their opening 60. This is a ridiculous assessment. How do they ever win a game otherwise? Remember: they have an Ad Nauseam and 8 tutors to 'get there', plus 12 cantrips to hit the aforementioned 9 (or ten) cards.

Leyline does not shut down their Gitaxian Probes. They can still probe themselves. They can also still Therapy themselves and name Vizzerdrix.

Leyline does not stop Silence. They have a better chance of drawing Silence than we of drawing Force. ie, Ponder + Brainstorm.

And they do not NEED to go off turn two. Because we are NOT a turn 2 consistent deck. We are occasionally a turn 2 deck. And we definitely are not a t2 deck when we're opening -1 card off a Leyline of Sanctity.

While Final Fortune could possibly have taken a higher road in the conversation, I can empathize the frustration he must have been having in articulating a statement when Hollywood has been, indeed, just short of claiming to have a Leyline + Force, Shoal, adequate blue cards to pitch, and a t2-t3 kill every g2 and 3 against storm.

And, really, it shouldn't matter much whether someone has placed or not. Good for you, Hollywood, and it's cool that you taught Bryant Cook how to play with cardboard at some point, but that's no justification for telling people their ideas are invalid. Let's remember that you were the predominant opponent to the Blue side, MB Gitaxian Probes, and a number of other modifications that you now seem to think are the absolute bee's knees.

[Shawon]

Just use the Ignore List, honestly. You already gave said user enough of your time.

[TableTopMagic]

Just use the Ignore List, honestly. You already gave said user enough of your time.

Oh it was just getting good. :D


I think the problem is that quite often people think of magic in black and white, 1D and 2D. When it is a multispectral and 3D. Hell, it almost boarders on the forth, but that would depend on if your talking to a Physicist or a Mathematician. (That's a little nerd joke there. :P)

From any dimension to the next the point of view of and object can change, but still have the same number of points. For example a single square can be seen straight on as this dot . or it can be seen from the side as this _____________________ and still be the same object. The same can be said for cards. Just because a card wasn't good when it was looked at from one angel doesn't mean it wont be better or great from other views. Not saying anyone here is better or worse than anyone else, just that ideas should be viewed in multiple ways before any judgements are made. Especially if personal attacks are made using those judgements.

[jimmythegreek]

Played some side-events at gp Richmond this weekend. Beat uw miracles......forced my first rip (felt amazing). Is uw miracles a difficult match up? It felt as if I didnt over extend I wouldnt get blown out by terminus. Lost to sneak and show ( guy had the nuts game one and two). Is therapy the only way to fight that deck? I suppose one might bring in all blue cards to beat snt?

[carefulmug]

I've spoken without tact or etiquette. Forgive me. Let me try again.

If you open the game with LoS, your opponent can't Tendrils you, simple.

I felt this comment was misleading in its decisiveness because Tendrils is not their default win condition, so we're not stripping them of much. The statement sounds confident in our shutting down Tendrils being a game breaker when it is a secondary win condition, anyway.

===

about win conditions, you said:

a.) Have it in their hand...
b.) Infernal Tutor all-in for it...
c.) Burning Wish for it...
d.) Ad Nauseam to find it or an answer to Leyline...
e.) Randomly cantrip into it.

i said:

Remember: they have an Ad Nauseam and 8 tutors to 'get there', plus 12 cantrips to hit the aforementioned 9 (or ten) cards.

Gotcha. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Now, as you can see, the only way they win under that set of circumstances is if they have it in their opening hand because any other attempt can be stopped cold with a counter. That's all I was trying to say. Nothing more, nothing less.

and earlier in the thread, concerning the singleton EtW in their maindeck, you said:

Either you've got it in your hand or you don't. Probability says you don't, but have a way to get it. I run counters, so Wishes and Tutors aren't resolving under the protection of a Leyline. Discard nullifies that prospect almost entirely, and I'm sure a Storm pilot would gladly pay one mana for a Chrome Mox or Probe to just win.

I suppose this is a difference of perspective. I believe our statements above describe numerous methods by which a storm player may find their win conditions. I'm not confident a single counterspell will prevent them from having two or more routes to victory in hand. And while counter + discard is good for us to have, Therapies don't usually come online for a few (2-4) turns at which point they may have Brainstorm to hide behind.

===

Leyline does shut down Gitaxian Probe, because I don't care if they look at their hand, pay two life and cycle it. They're not looking at my hand and have zero information as to what I'm sandbagging. That makes Leyline more potent.

I concede this point. It is a plus for running Leyline. But I believe this is an instance of assuming we will have counters in hand if we started with a Leyline in hand. This kind of conclusive language is what was throwing me off. I believe the statement also subtly diminishes the importance of Gitaxian Probe's ability as free storm +1 and cantrip by claiming "Leyline does shut down Gitaxian Probe". Also, the scenario (Leyline protecting us from our opponent's discard or knowledge of possible counterspell(s)) invites a question:

If our opponent is on the EtW plan, which, by default, they will be, and we do not have a counterspell in hand, how good is Leyline alone? Is there something that might be good against EtW all the time?

===

like I said blatantly in the beginning of a previous post that if they have Silence and a Tutor/Wish, well then we'll lose no matter what

You're right. My apologies.

===

i said:

And they do not NEED to go off turn two. Because we are NOT a turn 2 consistent deck. We are occasionally a turn 2 deck. And we definitely are not a t2 deck when we're opening -1 card off a Leyline of Sanctity.

and you said:

I never said we were, so I have no idea where that came from or why you're reiterating something completely obvious to me.

My comment was in reference to this, on page 104:

And they literally have to try and fire it off by turn two - in the face of an unknown hand, no less - or risk having their hand shredded and combo'd out. We also get two draws to find another counter in the process, which is fine by me.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I figure I should clarify the base of my previous statement.

===

Let me explain to you what "frustration" is. It's when you have proven tournament results year in and year out and the same person constantly ankle-bites you by pissing on your choices and logic without so much as providing a single piece of in-game Comp-REL experience or a tournament report to show exactly why something works better than the other.

I understand you and FF have had your differences. Personally, I don't mean to piss on any of your choices. I just want to challenge them because I have ideas of my own. Something tells me FF is trying to do the same thing--question.

You can't keep trolling these threads with baseless assumptions unless you've jumped into the fire and danced with the devil at multiple big events.

I used inflammatory language in the previous post, for which I had no right. Nonetheless, I don't believe anybody has been trolling.

And I never said anyone's ideas are invalid.

You did not explicitly state as much, no, but above statements--such as calling people's actions trolling because they are contradictory your own, or their ideas "baseless assumptions" because they have not placed or competed--are examples of the rhetoric that suggests you do believe some people's invalid.

Competing (and succeeding) and card theory are two very different aspects of the game and each have their merits. Consider the world of sports: there are many great coaches or instructors who were never great competitors. I don't mean to provide a condescending connotation with words like "coach" and "instructor", but mean to use them merely because these are the equivalents of theory crafters in MtG.

===

In my report I even gave credit to *all of you* for bettering the archetype and making it more competitive. At what point does someone seriously have to just throw their fucking hands in the air and say, I'm done with this shit.

I know I just fucking did.

I was unintentionally antagonizing in my previous post, and apologize. I thought I was incurring justice, but instead came short of talking shit. You're a valuable resource to the forum and I don't mean to minimize your's or anyone else's efforts or cause stress in any way.

Frustration is having to read novel-esque posts

Oops...

===

tl,dr: Leyline doesn't seem very strong against EtW alone. Is there something that we can board in against EtW that will always be good?

[carefulmug]

Lost to sneak and show ( guy had the nuts game one and two). Is therapy the only way to fight that deck? I suppose one might bring in all blue cards to beat snt?

If you're not running Force main, bring it in g2, but as far as the other blue cards in the SB, but I don't think Disrupting Shoal will do anything against Show and Tell because we have no 3 cc (for SnT) or 4 cc (for Sneak Attack) blue spells to pitch to the Shoal. Also, if you're running Mindbreak Trap in your sb, it will only work against OmniShow variations.

Ashen Rider seemed like an agreed upon answer for SnT, but it hasn't been discussed since the blue sideboard was created.

[Karbunkelsopp]

I would say Mindbreak Trap is always good against Empty the Warrens. Unless someone casts EtW as a first or second spell. But then EtW is really horrible...
But mindbreak trap is already included in our deck or have I missed something?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thrasher]

Miracles can be a tough matchup against a good player. They have ways to threaten us. G1 is favorable to us, g2-3 are more complicated.

Sneak and show should use sneak attack against us, and that's slower, so therapy works. Show and tell is nowhere as threatening, we can drop Griselbrand/Whirlpool rider and win or have an additional body for a dread return the turn after. Playing vs a griselbrand is definitely harder than emrakul, though. Racing Emrakul with flayer is always funny, in the end it's just a 15/15 that gives us tokens.

Mindbreak isn't always included. It's an option that has to be considered, but it isn't mandatory.

[Mr. Froggy]

I really like M. Trap vs Storm, in all honesty. I see it as a free counter.

[slave]

... that's a lot of deleted posts in the last few pages.


M. Trap is a good side choice if you fear storm.
I've been liking it against storm with the blue side, especially since with the blue side we can have Trap and Force smoke them.
The fact that Shoal can be somewhat situational does hurt it sometimes, so I like having access to Trap for storm, Shoal for non-storm.
Now we have the blue side, I'm liking Trap more than I did with the green side TBH.

That said, as far as a protective shield against Storm going off, Leyline of Sanctity does have greater use in non-storm matchups also.
I've been testing it on MTGO a bit > which I'm loathe to really use as a test-bed, as I tend to find most of the time people will just scoop if they don't get a nut-draw and waste my bloody time, so any results are gonna be somewhat skewed. I'm in Australia > the US/Euro legacy players don't seem to be around when I am, so it's usually pretty light on possible players.
I have some LoS in the post, I'm quite keen to give them some real match time....

[jimmythegreek]

So with the blue board we often side in the disrupting shoals game two. Whats the general plan in what to take out? I see alot of people shaving a phantasmagorian, s.shell, spirit and maybe street wraith. Where as game two we usually have to fight grave hate I would rather remove two phantasmagorians and keep the shell to up my dredger count. Against what decks do we suppose a different combonation of cards could be boarded out rather than the typical four.

[slave]

So with the blue board we often side in the disrupting shoals game two. Whats the general plan in what to take out?

To me it sounds like people have different opinions on how to best use the blue side so far.
Personally, whether you bring in Shoal and sub out ????, all depends on what hate you expect to see, and how quickly an opposing deck can possibly win.
My fear of hate is generally Rip, Cage, DRS in that order. DRS is there for me as many decks seem to run the little wizard sleeve in the main.

So far I've been bringin in Shoal if I expect two drops to be a gamebreaker. I've found Shoal to be so-so versus 1-drops like DRS & Cage.
Against DRS, I leave in 4 Phantasmagorian & Wraith, as they're our only way to play through it if we don't draw a counter.

[Michael Keller]

How do you guys feel about going with three Faerie Macabre, three Leyline of Sanctity and two Mindbreak Trap in the board?