All B/R update speculation.

[Vicar in a tutu]

Unban Black Vise. The card is only useful in Affinity and Burn and sucks in mid- lategame. Also, I just got a beta playset.

[Lemnear]

Unban Black Vise. The card is only useful in Affinity and Burn and sucks in mid- lategame. Also, I just got a beta playset.

I still think the card could be serious buisness with Stifle, Wasteland and Co.

[Zombie]

I still think the card could be serious buisness with Stifle, Wasteland and Co.

It would. And it would lead to even more "fun" games of Magic in the format with nothing positive to show for it.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I still think the card could be serious buisness with Stifle, Wasteland and Co.

Maybe. Also, if you are on the play: Land an Ancient Tomb and tap it to cast two Black Vises. Drool....

[Lemnear]

Maybe. Also, if you are on the play: Land an Ancient Tomb and tap it to cast two Black Vises. Drool....

Not to forget: Turn 2 Sphere of Resistance + Wasteland

Edit: In essence, I don't think WotC should push uninteractive games on the level of trained monkeys at all

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Not to forget: Turn 2 Sphere of Resistance + Wasteland

Edit: In essence, I don't think WotC should push uninteractive games on the level of trained monkeys at all

I remember turn1 Sol Ring -> double Vise back in 1996. Not that Ancient Tomb is Sol Ring, otoh, it's not B&R.
Iď love to see Black Vise legal, though, just for the sake of experiment. They may always ban it again and stop the discussion.

[Lemnear]

I remember turn1 Sol Ring -> double Vise back in 1996. Not that Ancient Tomb is Sol Ring, otoh, it's not B&R.
Iď love to see Black Vise legal, though, just for the sake of experiment. They may always ban it again and stop the discussion.

Oh, can I then get Necropotence and/or Yawgmoth's Will back for 3 months then too? Can I?!

[Darkenslight]

Oh, can I then get Necropotence and/or Yawgmoth's Will back for 3 months then too? Can I?!

What are you, a Storm player?

[Dice_Box]

And an Elves player...

[Lemnear]

And an Elves player...

And a Miracles player

[Dice_Box]

What use would Necro be in Miracles?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I get your joke Lemnear, but if I may answer in a bit more serious way (considering you were also a bit serious about the Vise/Necro experiment), then I think that there's a big difference in power level of both cards.

Also, we allow one Necro and one Vise in 1995/96. One Necro's not that brutal, even though Hymn is unrestricted... and that's basically because Mind Twist is banned and as such, singleton Hymn would mean "play Disk or get out of the format". And we really think that a good black aggro should be the part of a metagame. Also, Consultation is a mere one-off, so it's not like every (sry: "any") game is DRit->Necro.

[nedleeds]

It would. And it would lead to even more "fun" games of Magic in the format with nothing positive to show for it.

As opposed to being on the draw vs. a delver? I'll take the Vise thanks.

[Dzra]

Cabal Therapy is also a skill-intensive card, but how often do you people see bitch about it? Or to stay in color, how often do people bitch that Ponder is broken?

A lot of that required "skill" gets negated by brainless "Brainstorm in response, find answer" or "Brainstorm in response to hide key card from discard" which actually lessens the skill requirement. Why? Because a trained monkey can do that and most of the time, people do get away with it by the sheer power of the card.

Cabal Therapy requires a different skillset than Brainstorm; it's about knowing the format and being aware of the possible options your opponent has to actually threaten you. Brainstorm + Cabal Therapy is actually quite a skill intensive arrangement for both players. It involves a level-assessment of your opponent in addition to solid knowledge of their deck; you could probably write an entire article on that interaction alone.

Regardless, there are very few things about this game that are actually "difficult." I mean, Storm and Elves are widely considered some of the more complicated decks simply because they require a whole lot of (basic) math. You can say that Brainstorm isn't a very skill-intensive card all you like, but you are really just saying that Magic as a whole isn't that skill-intensive. Compared to many things, you're totally correct. However, relative to the rest of Magic, Brainstorm is quite difficult to make the most of.

As opposed to being on the draw vs. a delver? I'll take the Vise thanks.

I feel like most decks would rather play against a Delver, but I suppose it's moot since Black Vise will likely be played in Delver decks anyways.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You can say that Brainstorm isn't a very skill-intensive card all you like, but you are really just saying that Magic as a whole isn't that skill-intensive. Compared to many things, you're totally correct. However, relative to the rest of Magic, Brainstorm is quite difficult to make the most of.

This is not true. Brainstorm is pretty easy to use: just ship away the worst two cards in the best possible moment. I really can't understand what's so special about that.

[Squirrel]

This is not true. Brainstorm is pretty easy to use: just ship away the worst two cards in the best possible moment. I really can't understand what's so special about that.

Except it is not always easy to seee which cards are bad and which are good. Also, with Brainstorm being an Instant, there are many possible moments, and finding the right can be tough.
Decisions get maximized, good plays are rewarded-> Skill intensive card.

[Darkenslight]

This is not true. Brainstorm is pretty easy to use: just ship away the worst two cards in the best possible moment. I really can't understand what's so special about that.

BS is very easy to use. But to master? That takes a long time. For example, there arew times when it is absolutely correct to burn that thing on drawing. There are times when it is best to use it later. There are even times when it is the best play to not use it at all.

[Lemnear]

I get your joke Lemnear, but if I may answer in a bit more serious way (considering you were also a bit serious about the Vise/Necro experiment), then I think that there's a big difference in power level of both cards.

Also, we allow one Necro and one Vise in 1995/96. One Necro's not that brutal, even though Hymn is unrestricted... and that's basically because Mind Twist is banned and as such, singleton Hymn would mean "play Disk or get out of the format". And we really think that a good black aggro should be the part of a metagame. Also, Consultation is a mere one-off, so it's not like every (sry: "any") game is DRit->Necro.

I can imagine that the idea of unbanning cards for a testing period of 3 month with a possible re-ban afterwards could leave a bad taste in players mouth. Modern already has the bad reputation of using its players success to shape the banlist (edit: sry; iffy sentence, but I hope you get the idea). I dont think it would encourage players to invest into decks around the cards in question then and possibly create flawed results during the testing period. We all know the reservations Modern deckbuilding has atm like "I don't buy into tier 1 deck x because the keycard y will get banned anyways...". I don't want a doubtful environment for deckbuilding transfered to Legacy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I can imagine that the idea of unbanning cards for a testing period of 3 month with a possible re-ban afterwards could leave a bad taste in players mouth. Modern already has the bad reputation of using its players success to shape the banlist (edit: sry; iffy sentence, but I hope you get the idea). I dont think it would encourage players to invest into decks around the cards in question then and possibly create flawed results during the testing period. We all know the reservations Modern deckbuilding has atm like "I don't buy into tier 1 deck x because the keycard y will get banned anyways...". I don't want a doubtful environment for deckbuilding transfered to Legacy.

Yes, of course. In fact I don't even want Vise unbanned, but if it's the only chance how to get the answer if it's broken or not... I believe the main troubl with it is that it's highly annoying card and there are enough of them already legal.


@ Brainstorm: This can be told on just about any card. I really think that the correct usage of BS isn't that complicated, but then again, maybe I'm a Good Player...

[Dice_Box]

Back on the Brainstorm BS again? (Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear...)

Brainstorm is not complicated to use. Seeing the right moment almost always is as simple as a board read or in response to a spell. Knowing what to put back can be hard, but you can just draw one of the cards and then shuffle away the other with a fetch.

I don't hate the card, I don't want it gone, but I hate the argument that digging for answers/mana fixing your hand/needing a threat is hard to see and then pay one blue to do.

Do you need to cast Brainstorm? Yes, then that's the time. No, not the time. Skilful? No, not really.

Honestly, I feel that Force is more skill intensive than Brainstorm. Knowing that you have to hold a card, just because you may need it later to pitch I'd say if far more of a skill than asking, "Will Brainstorm fix this problem I have?"