[Primer] Elves!

[venice]

Besides the questionable keep in Game 1, what struck me much more is the fact that starting the Glimpse chain (G2), he first played his land for the turn, rather than tapping DRS for mana and hoping to draw into Cradle (which in fact he did), then played Birchlore over Heritage Druid preventing the chain to continue and attacking right into Tarmogoyf with Wirewood Symbiote few turns after... :/ Also, when he finally drew another Glimpse he should have just waited for another turn to get more value out of it.

[Echelon]

He was silly to play the Forest on his first turn. He should have fetched a Forest so he could tap his DRS for mana twice the following turn and then should have gone for the Heritage Druid line of play. Would have ended up with an extra mana compared to not fetching on T1.

Oh well, retrospect backseat driving isn't quite the same as playing the actual match then and there and also considerably easier.

[Shagstaman]

poor guy was probably nervous being on camera.. I noticed everything you guys did but I also saw him do the "aw crap" look after doing most of those things... he had to know he was messing up. Just nerves is all. I've been there.

edit: getting his NO thoughtseized was the main thing that got him. NoPro on turn 2 is pretty unbeatable for jund. I don't think he would've even had to glimpse iirc.. just play 2 guys, add 3, untap drs for 4, get a hydra.

[danyul]

I was there at SCG Seattle and scrubbed out, 2-4 drop, losing in pretty much every way you can lose a single game of Magic. I was mana screwed, mana flooded, faced horrible matchups, and punted where I should have known better. I basically played like shit. But Spencer and a couple other elvish locals were at the top tables for most of the tourney so I was living vicariously through them.

Spencer top 8'd the previous SCG Seattle as well as this SCG and posts in this very thread. He was undefeated going into the Top 8 and even beat his Top 8 opponent in the Swiss rounds, 2-0. The day was long and playing on camera can be nerve-wracking. It was about 9:30-10:30ish in the evening when the top 8 rounds started. People were tired and hungry. You can't expect perfect-robot-man play in those situations.

[SpencerS]

Hello fellow forest dwellers,
Shout out to fellow Elf lords Danyul and Kory?
I am the Spencer who scrubbed out on camera. I will post a report later tonight. Everything you said is correct gang , and I would have and obviously do see those lines of play. However , after 12 hours of play , little to no sleep due to travel, and only carrot sticks for food I wasn"t firing on all cylinders so to speak. I kept a bad hand , and gave Multiple punts game 2 , including the cardinal sin of not playing to win. I don't feel the need to defend myself , my competitive record speaks for itself , but I just wanted to explain why I let the forest of Fyndhorn down and I am a better player than that ;)

I fully intend on going for my third top8 and taking a trophy home in a few months .

Maybe real testing should be based around doing 6 hours of jogging then Playing test matches? ( -teammate BrettF T.E.S.)

[Shagstaman]

You did great brother! Hopefully I can put up a top 8 performance soon (my personal best is 9th with elves sigh), but for now you have that over most of us!!

look forward to the report!

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Yeah, it's easy for me to critique your play from the comfort of my office instead of on camera--and not knowing your list--too used to playing 2 Arbor that I discounted the possibility of only having 1. Congrats on your top 8!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Wow . . . we got moved!

[Echelon]

We kinda knew it was coming. Elves' numbers have been declining for quite some time now.

I guess we need to go and see if we can improve the list a bit more.

[Lemnear]

We kinda knew it was coming. Elves' numbers have been declining for quite some time now.

I guess we need to go and see if we can improve the list a bit more.

You can bet, development was never really stagnant, but the deck pretty much caped since months. Space is tight and the only slots to cut from now on seems to be the Nettle/Heritage combo, developing even more to a full Natural Order deck, but in fact, the bigger issue than cardchoices is the metagame between Engineered Explosives, Golgari Charm and Terminus. Not every Elves pilot has the skill and stamina to fight through those critical matchups all day. Unsuprisingly, the same decks Elves has problems with also affect my other natural choice for tourneys. I doubt that at least Elves is able to overcome the sweepers just by adjusting a few slots; it's a conceptional problem atm

[Echelon]

I think it's either that (the full-on NO-list) or go the Merfolk-route - play 8 to 12 lords and keep in the NO's as an insta-win threat. The current meta is slow enough to support that strategy.

We'd only have to come up with a good plan vs. the fast combo decks.

[Dice_Box]

NO elves are not great. I have tested it before and it's underwhelming. The lack of solid draw kills it. The power of Combo is that you can come back from nothing in a turn thanks to the draw power.

As for the Aggro lords path, never tested it. I do play a deck like it in modern and it's not half bad, but the deck is even weaker to wipes than the Combo version. Mostly because you just can't reset.

I can see cutting some of the Glimpse combo though, it's not really the point anymore. Heritage can be cut to a lesser number, Nettle I like to much to lose. In all though, I don't play much since I moved house, so while I can offer ideas, I can't test any more.

[Kayradis]

Coming back from GP Montreal,
I've seen people punt with the deck in some ways I'd never foreseen.

I was glad to explain their mistakes and such.
But to be honest, I'm glad the deck is not a DTB.
Let your little green dudes rest a bit. Then lets come out of the woodwork (see the pun there??) in strenght!

[Justin]

You can bet, development was never really stagnant, but the deck pretty much caped since months. Space is tight and the only slots to cut from now on seems to be the Nettle/Heritage combo, developing even more to a full Natural Order deck, but in fact, the bigger issue than cardchoices is the metagame between Engineered Explosives, Golgari Charm and Terminus. Not every Elves pilot has the skill and stamina to fight through those critical matchups all day. Unsuprisingly, the same decks Elves has problems with also affect my other natural choice for tourneys. I doubt that at least Elves is able to overcome the sweepers just by adjusting a few slots; it's a conceptional problem atm

Yeah, you are right. I think the arrival of True-Name Nemesis into the format hurt Elves. This is not because Elves fears playing directly against TNN, as the deck can easily outrace it. It's because the other decks in the format started playing cards to fight TNN. Those same cards (some of which you mentioned) are also very good against Elves, so there are now more people playing anti-Elf cards in their 75.

[Lemnear]

Yeah, you are right. I think the arrival of True-Name Nemesis into the format hurt Elves. This is not because Elves fears playing directly against TNN, as the deck can easily outrace it. It's because the other decks in the format started playing cards to fight TNN. Those same cards (some of which you mentioned) are also very good against Elves, so there are now more people playing anti-Elf cards in their 75.

The joke is that there are no specific anti-elves cards ... those are all anti-meta cards atm

[Shagstaman]

I hope more ppl continue to think elves suck...more free wins for me.

=)

(btw, they're wrong...easily one of the best decks in legacy and arguably the best non-brainstorm deck. Also a deck that scales directly proportionate to the user's skill and experience, which is why ppl might pass if off as a fragile engine after goldfishing around with it)

[Kayradis]

Legacy is a format rewarding the pilot over deck construction.
Elves is not an intuitive deck (despite Lemnear playing it.... ;) ). There is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge decision tree associated with the deck.
There's no easy win.
There's no unbeatable match up.

People have such a misconception of elves....

Lemnear & Danyul. Hit me later on FB. we need to chat. This thread needs to be revamped


Edit : Censored the swearing.

[Lemnear]

Legacy is a format rewarding the pilot over deck construction.
Elves is not an intuitive deck (despite Lemnear playing it.... ;) ). There is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge decision tree associated with the deck.
There's no easy win.
There's no unbeatable match up.

People have such a misconception of elves....

Lemnear & Danyul. Hit me later on FB. we need to chat. This thread needs to be revamped


Edit : Censored the swearing.

You could simply invite Daniel to our FB group with Julian or start a skype concerence ;). What do you mean by revamping? I guess the thread and primer is fine.

[Kayradis]

In the past 2 months, I've seen people making dumb comments or even playing the deck without a single clue how to make it work.
Im all about teaching player how to punt with style with the deck or even showing them more decision tree.

Jeez, I almost went to Jackie Lee in DC and asked her to quit the deck.
Danyul poured whatever he had left of his heart into this primer,
Julian is great at explaining the decision tree,
you have dumb ideas, and
I am amazing at bitching.

Unfortunately, seems like the good pilots are not listened to enough.
Fuck.
When Bryant Cook post on the TES thread, people know that they should simply listen to a guy that knows the deck inside out.
Im just being dumb/drunk/annoyed at the moment

[danyul]

You could simply invite Daniel to our FB group with Julian or start a skype concerence ;). What do you mean by revamping? I guess the thread and primer is fine.

I'm taking a little vacation from Facebook to retain my sanity. I recently updated the primer but if somebody wants to take it over, that's perfectly fine. I am available via twitter and email. And here of course.