I agree, the only problem is that we can't Solitary lock them when Spirit of the Labyrinth is a thing. Suppression field is really awesome against them too but it doesn't stop Spirit. That is why I'm sideboarding three copies of Dread of Night.Originally Posted by btm10
Someone mentioned D+T, Reanimator and BGx are the decks to deal with right now. D+T is dealt with by playing Dread of Night or Humility to answer Spirit of the Labyrinth. Once you've answered Spirit your plan is to fetch basic lands and gradually gain advantage through your Enchantress which they cannot easily answer. Eventually you will lock them with Sterling + Solitary and win with whatever win con you have.
Reanimator is miserable. I can't give you an answer. They put something into play on turn 2 and you scoop. We have RiP but they can Force, Thoughtseize, or Daze it so good luck. I suppose Humility helps. The reason this matchup is harder then Sneak and Show is b/c their guy comes into play on turn 2. They put in Grizz and just counter everything relevant or put in Iona naming white, not good.
BGx is interesting but I think I have figured out how to approach it for the most part. Their key cards are as follows: Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, Liliana of the Veil, Thoughtseize, Golgari Charm(or Maelstrom Pulse, or KGrip), Pernicious Deed (not very common but we have to assume they have it and be aware this card exists). They have a lot of ways to interact with us so trying to out-grind them and win via Solitary lock is difficult. Solitary is hard to get going because they often answer Enchantress effects. The solution is try and be as non-interactive as possible and protect our Enchantresses. The way to do this is board in all of your Leylines of Sanctity. Leyline shuts off Thoughtseize, Liliana -2 and -6, Hymn which adds up to 12 cards in their deck that we care about. Sterling Grove is our answer to Abrupt Decay and other targeted enchantment hate. If Sterling shines in one particular matchup it is this one because both abilities are very live. In my build I generally sideboard as follows: -2 O-Ring, -3 Confinement, +4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Karmic Justice (I am not currently running Justice but I was for a long time so right now I would bring in Nevermore and name Pernicious Deed 95% of the time). Against BUG I would also shave a Grass for a Choke. Grass shines in this matchup b/c the majority of their creatures are black and therefore cannot attack (Bob, DRS, Creeping Tar Pit, Tidehollow Sculler, etc). Plus, their Goyfs are nerfed by RiP so Grass plus RiP is a really nice soft lock. Just to reiterate, Leyline is important because it turns off a lot of their ways to answer Argothian Enchantresses. With Leyline in play their answers to Argothian include Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, PDeed. These cards are all 2 ofs at most. The game plan is to stick an Enchantress and start going off, Grass and RiP stall the game and eventually we slam a win con they cannot answer.
I hope this helps.
Humility and 3-4 o-rings helps vs D&T. Really what frightens me in D&T is well timed flickerwisp. I usaully out ramp thalia dont you guys? Spreading out the wild growths ect to play around ports. Not saying its easy match up. D&T eternally annoying.
Flickerwisp to blink ramped lands. Ethersworn canonnist slows us to a crawl and spirit of the labyrinth well its just evil. Also running into zealous persecution these days as well thumping out the enchantress.
Once again anyone laying down some suppression fields on D&T?
Keep it tight.
The problem with Oblivion Ring against D+T is that it can't reliably target their creatures because of Mom. It's still really good though. It will most of the time target Vial but it also deals with Equipment and random stuff like Aura of Silence and Serenity. Answering Vial is a big deal in the matchup b/c it means they can't deploy threats while Porting, Wasting, and Dust Bowling us.
I'm not sure what anyone else's meta is like, but D&T just isn't prevalent enough in mine to warrant the Dread of Night anymore. And I really can't get behind worrying too much about Spirit of the Labrynth. The last 3 D&T players I've played against have had it as a 1-2 of sideboard card, so it won't tip the scales on the sideboard slot either. I'm also surprised that you have that much trouble wlith Reanimator relative to other combo. If you're expecting a lot of it, it's not hard to run 4-5 RiP + Leyline of the Void alongside some number of additional Oblivion Rings and make the matchup at least playable. Unless they go straight to Tidespout Tyrant or Iona, you have plenty of answers in O.Ring and especially in Elephant Grass because Griselbrand is their go-to dude if they're blindly reanimating something.
BUG is hard, but it's easier than Jund was and really isn't that bad. DRS can't hit enchantments, they usually have minimal graveyard hate, and they usually only have 4-6 pieces of discard even postboard, so Replenish is excellent against them. Leyline of Sanctity is very strong too, as is Enlightened Tutor because it let's you search for things while keeping Groves up.
Anyone have any tips for the Elves matchup, or sideboard suggestions?
I've been having a tough time against them, could just be due to my draw variance since I felt I was well equipped with 4x Elephant Grass, 3x Solitary, 3x Suppression Field maindeck, among other things, but their sheer draw power in the early turns (can usually go off by about T2-3 as you're aware) is usually too much for me, and happens before I have started the Enchantress engine.
Even in games where I feel like I have it fairly well locked up they just have to GSZ for a Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver and destroy a Solitary or whatever and usually that's enough for the win.
Plus Elephant Grass usually seems pretty terrible as once they drop a Gaea's Cradle they can virtually ignore it and start swinging with at least a few creatures.
Maybe something like Moat or Humility could be worth trying but they're both probably too slow to correct the problem I'm having.
The fact that most Elf decks are running some number of Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize only makes the matchup more frustrating as that requires considering Leylines from the board and further diluting the maindeck.
Again it could just be some bad luck on my part but the matchup doesn't seem very good. Anyone have any suggestions or opinions on the matchup?
edit: I do run 1 Blind Obedience in the board that I was bringing in, it helps somewhat in slowing down their Heritage Druid draws and brings Craterhoof in tapped but they can still play around it; it really just delays them a turn which didn't seem to be enough.
It really depends on your splash colors and what your overall configuration is. If you're running 4 GSZ, straight GW, and less than 4 Sterling Grove, then running additional acceleration to get to the 4 mana spells and maybe an extra copy of Blind Obedience are about as good as it gets. There's also that white instant that gives all nonwhite creatures -1/-1, but I don't remember the name of it. It kills your Argothian, but it also stops you from dying, so it's probably worth the tradeoff if you're dropping 1-2 rounds/tournament to Elves.
On the other hand, if you run a more traditional build and Elves is a problem, it's definitely worth exploring the black splash for Engineered Plague which usually just wins against Elves. They still have Harmonic Sliver, but they usually have to GSZ for 3 (i.e., get to 4 mana) and do it without mana Elves other than DRS. It really shouldn't be too hard for you to stabilize from that point. Obviously the black splash also gives you goodies like Thoughtsieze and The Abyss.
Been testing with a one-of Nether Void in the board for the past couple of days and the card is absurd so far. Need to test more games with it. It hosed High Tide after he countered my Choke and it hosed Elves hard.
Against elves you have humility and rule of law as more traditional cards. Then you can lock them out with confinement + draw or field + rip. Didnt you tried this?
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That was me. I still believe that. Sometimes Elves can be a problem as Mortox describes. Given the current list I'm trying it seems liek one card that can help all of these MU's is a non-enchantment Swords to Plowshares.
Swords can remove a good deal of threats from Reanimator, can potentially remove the troublesome bear in D&T, and drastically reduce the threat of BGx decks if we remove bob, or a huge goyf.
For Mortox it could also remove a large Craterhoof, or a combo creature. I hadn't tested it because it is a non-enchantment, and I did not know where to fit it in. However, after reflection I think it can be tested in the (3) Carpet of Flowers slots in the board. This was if RUG deploys an early threat we can swords it in stead of trying to power past it, and then we have a card that is functional in a lot more mu's.
Over this weekend (possibly even today) I intend to power-up the stream, and I will give that set-up a shot at least for a bit.
For what little it's worth, I ran Swords MD for a long time. Usually as a 2-of, but it gives you a ton of flexibility for when you don't have Moat/Sphere or when Elephant Grass can't cut it. I think that if you're having trouble with fast creatures, it's totally worth testing.
Well I've never been a fan of Moat in this deck since I feel Elephant Grass/Solitary cover that aspect, and as I said against Elves the problem is that they go off before I go off, meaning that a 4-mana enchantment doesn't really seem like the ideal solution for the problem I'm having. That said, it could be cast as early as T3 which might be enough some of the time so maybe I'll test one or two out.
Of course I try to establish a confinement lock, but this isn't something we usually do until ~T4 at the earliest as you spend your first couple turns setting things up and by then Elves can kill you. I will play my Elephant Grass/Solitary very early in the Elves matchup even if I have to let them go the following turn, just to try and survive additional turns, but this strategy is hit or miss and is very draw dependent on what you peel.
I suppose it's silly to speak hypothetically rather than just post my list so this is what I've been running:
//Lands (20)
3 Savannah
2 Karakas
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
10 Forest
//Creatures (5)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Argothian Enchantress
//Enchantments (30)
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oblivion Ring
//Other Spells (5)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Helm of Obedience
//Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
I've run it through a few dailys online recently, I've 3-0'd two in a row (opting to split the finals in both cases) and 2-2'd a couple others. I have it in paper as well, been testing it quite a bit.
I definitely like the Suppression Fields maindeck, I feel like D&T is actually favorable post board and I've been winning quite a few G1's as well mainly due to the Suppressions.
Whenever I bring in the 3 Stony Silence from the board (be it for Miracles, D&T, combo running artifact mana, etc) I board out the Helm/RiP combo and bring in the Blind Obedience just as another potential wincon/disruption (albeit slow as hell!) and 9 times out of 10 the opponents will end up playing a Needle or Revoker naming Helm which is pretty awesome.
The 1 Qasali Pridemage is there mainly for the Miracle matchups. I've had quite a few games in testing where if they get a Top+Counterbalance lock on it can become almost impossible to win. The idea with the Pridemage was to be able to GSZ for some arbitrary cmc and bring it into play to blow up the Counterbalance. It's a recent (re)addition but the plan has played out a couple times successfully so for now I'll leave it. I don't bring it in for much else besides Miracles though as for most other artifact/enchantment targets I have the Seal of Primordium or ORings which I prefer to run.
So far the biggest complaints I have with my list are, as I said, the Elves matchup, and that sometimes the deck just loses to itself. I'll go on stints where I draw pretty much the nuts (or at least very workable hands) for 20 games in a row, then I'll hit a patch where I have to mull to 4 over and over because all I have is 1 Karakas and 6 green cards or something like that. Plus the 3 Savannah I run have been a bit of a liability all said and done; situations where Savannah is my only land and I have to Growth/Sprawl it only to have it Wastelanded is often the end of the game. I may cut the 3 Savannah and do something like 2 Forest+1 Plain or 2 Forest + 1 Serra's Sanctum, not sure yet. Obviously I'm not running any fetchlands because I'm maindecking Suppression - I played for a long time without Suppression at which point I was running Windswept Heath's but the number of cards that Suppression hoses is unreal; Aether Vial, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Liliana, Equipment, Fetchlands, Sneak Attack, Thespian Stage, Engineered Explosives, I mean the number of decks where Suppression has no significant impact are far and few between and when you combine it with an early Elephant Grass you can really stifle everything your opponents doing while buying you multiple turns. I just had a game where my UWR Delver opponent had 1 Volcanic Island and 4 fetchlands in play versus my Suppression and it bought me about 10 turns to setup.
Anyway I'll definitely try out some of the suggestions here. Rule of Law is something I forgot about, I'm not sure if it's what I need but it's worth trying out against Elves. I'll also try out the StP idea, maybe add 2 to the board and cut the Carpets as you suggested Freggle. Another color splash is also something I've thought about, I've tried red versions in the past with War of Words and Blood Moon but it didn't really feel competitive or consistent enough. I never gave the black splash an honest try but running 2-3 Engineered Plague definitely sounds appealing as well as The Abyss/Nether Void; are there any black splash lists anyone has been working on? Would love to see one that has had at least marginal success. In any case I imagine a 3rd color splash would require removing the maindeck Suppression and adding at least 4 fetchlands back to the deck, which I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying.
I've definitely had a rekindled interest in Enchantress over the last month or so, I really enjoy playing the deck and I think it has a lot of decent matchups. Plus there's nothing more satisfying than dominating D&T with tax effects.
I'm not sure if I'd cut the Carpets for the Swords, but other than that (and the Miracles comment), I agree with everything you've written. Clearly, I'm a huge proponent of GWb, especially if Miracles is a problem. Suppression Field + Words of Waste is usually game against Miracles because then they're just playing off of their topdeck and have to invest so much mana in setting up and casting Entreat that you can usually just smash them with whatever you want. The ability to maindeck Thoughtsieze is also excellent against all sorts of decks, but can strip their CBs or other early counters so you can be guaranteed to set your engine up. Honestly, if you aren't seeing a lot of RUG or combo, it's probably right to be running Replenish since more opponents will be all in on either discard or countermagic against you. Even against the most difficult BGx decks, that've got Golgari Charm + Krosan Grip + Abrupt Decay + 6-8 discard spells, but landing Replenish just resets the clock in your favor, and if they've maxed out on discard and enchantment removal against you, it's unlikely that they have all of those things AND the countermagic to stop Replenish, especially since they've probably spent a counter or two on an enchantment or enchantress.
On the mana issue, think 3 Savannah is a bit much. Honestly, I've gone to just a singleton G/x dual where X is my splash color. Otherwise, it's Forests, Plains, Sanctums. This is partly because I've gone back to GWr for my local meta where Blood Moon just wins and I don't like having too many extra mountains, and partly because I see no real reason to make myself vulnerable to Wasteland and Price of Progress at the moment. I have a black splash list that I've done well with recently a few pages back; some people have suggested running Cadaverous Bloom in GWb, but after testing I feel like they're nightmares to play. It's a strictly win-more card and is often counterproductive. My old list is:
Mana Sources/Lands (27)
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
Engine(16)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sterling Grove
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Sylvan Library
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
Staying Alive(6)
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 The Abyss
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Answers(8)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Suppression Field
1 Words of Waste
Win(3)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Helm of Obedience
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Aura of Silence
2 Engineered Plague
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Rule of Law
1 Stony Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Rest in Peace
This was for a control+midrange-heavy meta with little non-Elves combo and only a few Tempo decks, so Sylvan was better than Guile + Confinement. I've since switched a few cards to put 1 Guile + 2 Confinement main and gone up to 4 Presence. I'll post my current GWb list later. Hope this helps.
I've never had miracles be a difficult MU. The thing is that even if they get CB + Top online is that we still draw a card if they counter it which eventually gives us enough gas to start casting many spells a turn and overwhelm them. It sucks if they float a 4 and 5 to counter Helm and Sigil but they only have 4 Force and 4 Jace and they might not even know that they're supposed to do that. If Emra is your win con though it's just lights out. The games I've lost to Miracles involved Terminus followed by Ethersworn Canonist.
Did not do well at the tournament in RI today. Didn't end up splashing Black for Dread of Night and stuck with my stock list I've been on for a while. My play was fine all day the deck just didn't want me to win. The only egregious error I made didn't matter b/c I would have lost that game even without the error. One other guy is there on Enchantress and he made top 8 which is great.
I was the other guy on enchantress. It was cool when in round 2 I looked at the game to my right and saw a bunch of enchantresses in play. Wish we had had more time to compare notes.
Rule of Law seems like the best card .... against Enchantress.
Im testing this GWu list and i'd appreciate your comments!
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Elephant Grass
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Sterling Grove
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
2 Tropical Island
4 Plains
5 Forest
2 Energy Field
1 Ancestral Knowledge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Sphere of Safety
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
THx!!
GC.
Hi all,
For Mortox or any player that want to try a GWb enchantress list, this is my best tested list (among all Enchantress lists that I tested):
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Serra's Sanctum
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
8 Forest
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Leafcrown Dryad
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Abundant Growth
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Duress
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Sideboard:
1 Ashen Rider
2 Golgari Charm
3 Cursed Totem
3 Seal of Primordium
3 Thoughtseize
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Good luck.
Why Leafcrown Dryad? It doesn't advance your gameplan at all, it isn't evasive, and it's really small. Duress/Inquisition main with Thoughtseize board seems backwards; swapping TS for Duress seems better. Really, the deck is very discard-heavy for not running Words of Waste. Sylvan Libray also synergizes well with Words, but is a non-bo with Solitary. Then again, you aren't running Guile either, which seems odd. Toxic Deluge seems so bad that I don't know where to start, especially when you're running additional small creatures. What do you do in the control mirror? What do you do against combo? The discard can knock them off their game a bit, but your deck doesn't really apply meaningful pressure. How do you consistently make non-green mana? Why Misty over Verdant Catacombs? 6 Fetch seems like too many. Why only 1 Sanctum? Why 1 Bayou and no Savannah or even basic Plains? Does Abundant Growth really work as a 4-of? Doesn't running 12 Enchant Lands, especially as your only color fixing, make you just scoop to Flickerwisp? MD Carpet is interesting, but why only 1? Why no tutoring other than 1 GSZ?
I'm not a mod, but if you're going to post a decklist that's this unorthodox, you owe us at least some kind of explanation of the choices.
I posted my list because someone talks about GWb version and he would a list. I didn't give explanation because many people doesn't like any splash of Enchantress list and I didn't want to give some explanation if there is nobody to read them.
The explanations, that I will give you, are the results of my experience (and sorry for my english).
Because this is the best enchant-creature card:
- It stops the Delver T1/T2.
- It can be sacrified instead of Argothian VS Liliana of the veil.
- It can block.
- It offer a pressure (specially VS control/combo). Enchantress has no pressure and so control/combo have any time that they want to kill us.
If opponent consumes cards to kill him, that's mean that he doesn't like the card no? So, even Dryad takes all, it's still good for us (a decay on it instead of Enchantress presence or other.., a bolt instead of on us, stp? Ok you win 2 lifes that enable you to gain at least one more turn before die from Deathrite Shaman).
I tested the card and like it so I play it ^_^.
First, I prefer Duress on TS because we lose many life during a game before win/lock and VS aggro.deck (BUG/Patriot...), each life point is precious.
VS combo.deck we can easily consume our life.
Moreover, why TS will be better than duress for us ? We need to discard generally no-creature spells (decay,spell pierce, Hymn, Liliana....). TS is useful only for Combo (specially Elves) so => Sideboard for me.
We need discard to gain time (specially vs combo.deck), so we need to play discard very quickly (badly there is no enchantment to get this job). Words of Waste is useless alone and cost 3 (too heavy). Sylvan Library is good alone but as you said, no-bo with Solitary.
I know Guile is very good, but no place for this (for me), so I prefer to have faith on my draw engine to get what I want.
Have you never been in a situation where you want to reset the board ? Have you never lived a game where you have no creature (liliana, Golgari charm, counter spell ...) but opponent has 2 Tarmo + some Delver or TNN ? Me yes, that why I play this x1. It's only for critical situation and reverse the game.
What is the Enchantress pressure VS combo.deck? For me nothing because we are too slow. VS Combo.deck, I play heavy discard to gain time, I make pressure with Dryad (Dryad can enchant Dryad to deal more damage without waiting the next turn because Dryad hasn't haste) and I kill with Dryad and/or Helm or Sigil.
Abundant growth, Utopia make perfectly the job.
It's simply because I have no Verdant Catacombs ^_^, but in any case, it doesn't seem to be important because we need green mana so all fetch have to be G/X.
Even with 6 fetchs, I have still the feeling that I draw too many lands. It's just my feeling from my experience.
In order to keep a limit of non-basic land. No basic plains because I need green no others colors (Abundant/Utopia make the job).
Flickerwisp is a good hate for us in any case. Why I will scoop to it ? During the game you know what color you want, and you draw a lot. You doesn't enchant the same land specially when your opponent is Death&Taxes. Moreover you can discard them by Kozilek (^_^) (and TS if you play it MD).
I want to keep at least 6 discards MD and many enchantment, so it's difficult for me to add more GSZ (you can play another one instead of Toxic Deluge if you want).
Only one carpet because it's a "blue-hate" and opponent can play around it (moreover I'm short with available slots).
Thanks you for your questions. I hope I answered you correctly.
Regards,
Dihensoeur
How well does Leafcrown dryad apply pressure to combo? Do you prioritize casting it before an enchantress?
Not having elephant grass in the deck at all seems kind of weird to me, as it is one of the cornerstones of the deck IMO.
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