[Deck] Counterbalance Control - the new Landstill?

[Caligula Superfly]

@Mirrislegend: Why are you ditching counterspell? I have been doing a good bit of testing and I find my 8 hard counters (counterspell, fow) to all be vital. Counterbalance is great for dealing with anything 1 or 2 cc for sure, and I have the tools to use it against 3, 4, and 5cc spells when nessisary, but almost every game I play I use hard coutners to cover my back in situations where CB can't do the job by itself.

[Iranon]

@ Tacosnape: That's an interesting thought... how many are you running? It looks like you might risk playing with yourself when you should be doing something else (...). At least I occasionally did when I supplemented Top with Scroll Rack and Soothsaying (although Scroll Rack was pretty damn sexy. And educated as well. You've just about convinced me that I want at least one).

Lodestone Bauble seems... very very very situational. A 0 cost artifact might be good (LED cheese and other madness... no, not necessarily Madness!) but I think Mox Diamond or Seat of the Synod might actually be useful when you draw them. Seat doesn't even take up a slot. Or if you want to be a vindictive git running situational cards maindeck... Tormods Crypt. Ouch.

Eyes of the Watcher seems a little strange if you run a lot of permanent-based library manipulation, especially since its effect isn't useful with E. Tutor itself; isn't there something with a little more 'oh crap' potential at cmc 3? I can't think of anything good that's tutorable and allows you to counter things indefinitely; I like to run 2 Shackles and 2 Forbid there (Forbid is evil beyond words in this deck; you have quite a few cards that are dead in multiples anyway).
If you want to impress your opponent with the astonishing feat of turning crap into... gold-plated crap, Thalakos Mistfolk is a cute option. Jank ftw (SDT takes care of cc1, you should have a crowded cc2 slot anyway... and it's a win condition that can hide in a moderately safe place).

[Tacosnape]

I guess my version's more Toolbox-ish control with a heavier emphasis on standard U/W Control elements.

I absolutely loathe 4 copies of SDT in this deck, especially if it's the Enlightened Tutor version. It's great, but multiple copies of it suck, and it sucks without the Counterbalance out. I'm running 1 in my build, along with 1 Soothsaying and 1 Scroll Rack to make the whole shebang pretty much immune to Pithing Needle. 4 Brainstorms is a must, obviously, and Mystical Tutor is interesting (I'm running 2, currently), but what I like about Enlightened over Mystical is the ability to not only fetch-and-counter, but to fetch something that lets you repeatedly counter.

Isochron Scepter's amusing here, too (I'm testing 1). Scepter/Mystical Tutor + Eyes of the Watcher + Counterbalance = Opponent's head explodes.

The biggest weaknesses I've found so far isn't the opponent being able to get through the Counterbalance manipulation, but being able to live through whatever they can do prior to a Counterbalance resolving.

On a side note, I've also been running one Seat of the Synod and one Ancient Den, as well as Trinket Mage, just for shits and giggles. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep this idea, though. Makes me wonder if there's an awesome Counterbalance Fish deck I should be building also. Vial Sage Owl FTW!

EDIT: @Iranon. You're right. The Bauble's been cut in my tests. I still want to cling on to one in my board, just because it cantrips so cheaply, but Seat of the Synod / Ancient Den has been strictly better. Mainly because I can't reliably get lands in my graveyard without drawing a Predict (Which everyone should be running, with all this library manipulation.)

[Mirrislegend]

@ Caligula: cuz I'm stupid X(. I dont know. I revoke that suggestion, most definitely. However, I must say that for the while I was trying to build lists w/out Counterspell, I found those 4 extra slots to be very useful. If we can find something, in general, to totally cut, I think this could actually get somewhere for a change!

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone else just been losing sleep at night at the thought of combining Counterbalance and Sterling Grove in a 3-Color control Enchantress deck? Maybe with Argothian Enchantress somewhere along the way for mass stupidity?

Damn you, Wizards, for printing cards that cause me to wake up in cold sweats. Stupid Counterbalance.:P

[dahcmai]

Why not Predict and Portent? It works for thresh and can draw you into your lock faster if you don't already have it out. When the top isn't out, it's one more way to manipulate the top cards into a counter. Just a thought really, but it seemed logical.

[Tacosnape]

Why not Predict and Portent? It works for thresh and can draw you into your lock faster if you don't already have it out. When the top isn't out, it's one more way to manipulate the top cards into a counter. Just a thought really, but it seemed logical.

Portent is a Sorcery. No good there.

[Pinder]

... Hot damn you're right. Ok then, U/W it is!

EDIT: Here we go. I threw this together pretty quickly but...

Counter UnBalanced U/W:
4 FoW
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Telling Time

4 StP
1 Humility
2 WoG
1 Vedalken Shackles

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Decree of Justice

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
7 Island
6 Plains

Notes:
-1 Humility/2 Wog: This is treating Humility like a fetchable WoG off of Enlightened Tutor

Issues with this version:
-I'm unhappy with the counter base, but the deck needs the 1 cc slot for the low cc legacy gauntlet, and cant afford another UU anyways, as:
-I'm unhappy with the mana base. The mana base is set right now slight skewed towards blue becuase of Shackles and Counterbalance. But I like my control primarily Blue, splashing other stuff. But the WW of Wog and Humility just cannot be denied.

So all in all this deck keeps screaming "I have potential" but is underminded by some very frustrating items

I've only done limited testing with this deck, but I'm still not sure why you're not running Mystical Tutor in the deck. I understand that ET fetches a wide array of varying cc stuff in here, but MT helps fetch Decree (you know, your win condition), WoG, and even FoW in a pinch. And with an SDT online (or brainstorm, or telling time), you get to nab whatever you tutored for the same turn. It looks good enough on paper to at least warrant a 2 or 3 of, don't you think?

[Bane of the Living]

If the dedication is really focused on the top card of your library then why not try to play the Draco Explosion combo for your win condition? Red adds Fire//Ice and that card is for winners.

[Pinder]

If the dedication is really focused on the top card of your library then why not try to play the Draco Explosion combo for your win condition? Red adds Fire//Ice and that card is for winners.

I'm not sure if he's joking, or mocking me or if he's actually serious.

I hope he's not serious.

[wrshp666]

In my testing telling time, seemed like the weakest library manipulation card out of all the library manipulation. Telling time only looks at the top 3, and can only manipulate those, instead of a card like brainstorm that has a variety of cards you can put on top. If the 3 cards doesnt include the CC your looking for it seemed like a cantrip that can even potentially put something good on the bottom *though that doesnt matter too much because you have a mass amount of fetchlands*

I've been testing spy network in the spot of telling time, but no big results yet.

[Pinder]

I've been looking at Spy Network as well, but I haven't done any testing. The thing about Spy Network though, is that it doesn't actually net you any card advantage. Both Brainstorm and Telling Time draw you a card, while Spy Network only lets you rearrange the top 4. Admittedly, Network lets you peek and their hand (and, I suppose, any face down creatures they have, you know, in case they play a morph creature other than Exalted Angel), and all for the low low cost of U, but that might not be enough to make up for the lack of actual card draw. Especially since Telling Time still digs 3 cards deep, which is only 1 less than Spy Network does. The question then becomes 'is digging an extra 1 down really worth giving up a draw?'

I suppose further testing might tell...

[wrshp666]

The thing about telling time is that though you do dig 3 cards, and net a card out of it, you can only put 1 of those back on top, and with counterbalance on the table, and your opponent playing a spell, you have to have the same casting cost in your top 3 cards, which is why obviously brainstorm is much superior. Digging 4 cards, peeking and looking at their top card let's you set up the rest of your spy network *the top 4 cards* and for the cost of U.

And yes i do agree, looking at those whipcorder's that are morphed is so "tech" :P

[Pinder]

And yes i do agree, looking at those whipcorder's that are morphed is so "tech" :P

And any optimal goblin build is obviously running Skirk Marauder .

Honestly, I like telling time because of the card advantage. Of course, in a a deck so focused around the top card of your library, perhaps having access to more cards on top of your library is actually better than having access to more cards in your hand. Who knows, but it definitely warrants some testing.

[wrshp666]

And any optimal goblin build is obviously running Skirk Marauder .

Can't forget those foothill guides :p

On a more serious note, does anyone think predict is worth it? you're never NOT going to know what's on top so *shrug* i've been running 2 but havent thought too much about it.

I wish portent was an instant *sigh*

[Pinder]

Can't forget those foothill guides :p

On a more serious note, does anyone think predict is worth it? you're never NOT going to know what's on top so *shrug* i've been running 2 but havent thought too much about it.

I wish portent was an instant *sigh*

Me too. 4 MD quicken, anyone ?

As for predict, it would be some awesome card draw, I'll admit, but it doesn't do much for the top of your library, which is what this deck is all about. I guess it comes down to whether cards in hand or cards on top is better for this deck.

[Caligula Superfly]

Ive been liking predict. It fits right into the low curve, and its my only other form of real card advantage without a counterbalance in play. It also digs really nice, letting you ditch something you dont want and draw so you have fresh cards for brainstorms/top.

[Maveric78f]

I really, really love condescend in that deck, much more than telling time which is crap even in standart.

And instead of that combination :
1 Humility
2 WoG
1 Vedalken Shackles

I would play :
2 Moat
2 Vedalken shackles

Then the kill I would choose, would be eternal dragon which would enable you to play 1 land less and 1 enlightened tutor in addition.

[Caligula Superfly]

Hmm, an interesting idea I must admit (you can play it for 0 and still counter the spell), but the real gift of the other manips is that they either draw a card, or don't cost you a card. Thats what gives you the nuts advantage with counterbalance. Its probably an improvement from telling time I must admit, but Im not so convinced that a nother manip ability even needs to go there.

[Maveric78f]

And if you want a full counterbalance lock, play mystical tutor*4 and Life // Death*1. It's like a chalice with 1 and 2 counters only for the opponent. It's very harmful in the metagame.