Miracle Control

[Valtrix]

You can Clique in the end of draw step...

What the person was saying is that if you cycle a land in your main phase, you can dredge loam, retain priority and recast loam. In this way your opponent never has a chance to Clique the loam away. Because it's never in your hand at a moment when your opponent is able to cast Clique.

[amalek0]

You can Clique in the end of draw step...

you can clique it if I draw a loam naturally, sure, but you'll never get it if I've already got it online. I can mainphase cycle to dredge, then immediately cast loam again before you have priority. That's why you don't dredge during your draw phase if you suspect cliques.

edit: ninja'd =(

[kiblast]

you can clique it if I draw a loam naturally, sure, but you'll never get it if I've already got it online. I can mainphase cycle to dredge, then immediately cast loam again before you have priority. That's why you don't dredge during your draw phase if you suspect cliques.

edit: ninja'd =(

Well you play how many cyclers? 2? maybe 3? It's not uncommon not to have a cycler ready. I'm aware of the cycling/Loam saving trick though.

[Adryan]

Something more visual what Keranos can do:

-He is indestructible and there is no common played card that can get rid of him. He will never be a creature unless we have a boardstate with Jace, Clique, Counterbalance etc. but then the game should be over anyways.

-Imagine this card against Liliana decks. Liliana is a very good card against us when combined with pressure. This guy beats Liliana and makes sure that she will never get to 6 loyalty. Every Swords to Plowshares, every Brainstorm will give us a Lightning Bolt that can target Liliana or remove other small creatures. Drawing a Land? Never mind, we draw another card. Opponents board of Liliana, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman against our board with only lands and this guy. I'm pretty sure after several turns, when the dusk settled there will only be Keranos remaining.
- He kills every threat of Jund besides Tarmogoyf if we don't have RIP.
- Jund plays zero cards in it's 75 that can remove it.


- Against Shardless BUG almost everything said about the Jund MU is true. And more: their Jace against our Keranos. I bet my money on Keranos.

- Against Death and Taxes. He kills every normal threat of the deck and. An added bonus is that if we have Keranos out and they play Cataclysm without some sick board state (Equipments or Aether Vial etc.) we are heavily favored.

The list could get on. He's a really good 1of for grindy MU's. Keranos is nothing backbreaking, he is just a very good sideboard card for grindy MU's. Yes a 3rd Entreat the Angels is also a very good Sideboard card, but i just don't like the clunkyness of 3 Entreat. There are also some nasty guys who have Slaughter Games against us and will name Entreat the Angels. I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket.

[twndomn]

-Imagine this card against Liliana decks. Liliana is a very good card against us when combined with pressure. This guy beats Liliana and makes sure that she will never get to 6 loyalty. Every Swords to Plowshares, every Brainstorm will give us a Lightning Bolt that can target Liliana or remove other small creatures. Drawing a Land? Never mind, we draw another card. Opponents board of Liliana, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman against our board with only lands and this guy. I'm pretty sure after several turns, when the dusk settled there will only be Keranos remaining.
- He kills every threat of Jund besides Tarmogoyf if we don't have RIP.
- Jund plays zero cards in it's 75 that can remove it.

- Against Shardless BUG almost everything said about the Jund MU is true. And more: their Jace against our Keranos. I bet my money on Keranos.

- Against Death and Taxes. He kills every normal threat of the deck and. An added bonus is that if we have Keranos out and they play Cataclysm without some sick board state (Equipments or Aether Vial etc.) we are heavily favored.

What have you been smoking?

vs Jund: If you haven't get run over by BBE and goyf from the start, you most likely broke a bunch of fetches to reduce your life total down to dangerous range by the time you have 5 lands. Does this God stop Jund's PFire combo? Please Tap out to play that God, so Jund can Choke you out or direct damage you out.

vs BUG: If BUG has Jace on the board, you're already in deep trouble. Why would BUG player allow you to resolve a God when he's been Jace-storming every turn? Yet, can your precious Keranos deal with TNN? I thought so.

vs Death and Taxes: Are you kidding me? As if you can just bypass Wasteland + Port, what about Flicker, Mangara + Karakas? Keep dreaming.

[amalek0]

Well you play how many cyclers? 2? maybe 3? It's not uncommon not to have a cycler ready. I'm aware of the cycling/Loam saving trick though.

Generally 2, and if it's one then there's a dearth of intuitions and tolaria wests instead to help find it. Against a matchup like miracles that really doesn't have a way to directly disrupt the combo and doesn't have more than two pieces of hate anyway, it's one of the first weapons you try to set up--loam + thicket.

[lordofthepit]

Keranos seems clunky, but really powerful if you resolve it. I like that it's actually a win condition that we can resolve through Gaddock Teeg (which has admittedly faded in popularity).

[Adryan]

What have you been smoking?

vs Jund: If you haven't get run over by BBE and goyf from the start, you most likely broke a bunch of fetches to reduce your life total down to dangerous range by the time you have 5 lands. Does this God stop Jund's PFire combo? Please Tap out to play that God, so Jund can Choke you out or direct damage you out.

vs BUG: If BUG has Jace on the board, you're already in deep trouble. Why would BUG player allow you to resolve a God when he's been Jace-storming every turn? Yet, can your precious Keranos deal with TNN? I thought so.

vs Death and Taxes: Are you kidding me? As if you can just bypass Wasteland + Port, what about Flicker, Mangara + Karakas? Keep dreaming.

Why do you need to insult me? Low self esteem or something like that?

Normaly you don't get overrun by creatures of Jund. Hopefully you do also realize that Punishing Fire mostly pings for 1 Dmg a turn and is kinda slow. So naturally games tend to go long against Jund. Shardless BUG has 3-4 FoW, so normally i don't see any issues here. If Shardless BUG has a turn 3/4 Jace and is BS every turn and you have absolutely nothing, Keranos won't change anything. But to be fair there is no card out there that will win you the game.

Your arguments vs Death and Taxes show me that you maybe didn't play a lot against the mentioned decks. Ports and Wastelands are only an issue if they have Aether Vial ( less than 50% of the games). Otherwise it's impossible to apply real pressure and to tax our mana.

Mangara? Are you serious, who plays this card anymore. I can't remember the last time someone played it against me. Is outdated for Death and Taxes.

I don't say Keranos is the new bread&butter for this deck, he's a decent SB card that could replace something like a 3rd Entreat, Gideon etc.

[twndomn]

Why do you need to insult me? Low self esteem or something like that?

Normaly you don't get overrun by creatures of Jund. Hopefully you do also realize that Punishing Fire mostly pings for 1 Dmg a turn and is kinda slow. So naturally games tend to go long against Jund. Shardless BUG has 3-4 FoW, so normally i don't see any issues here. If Shardless BUG has a turn 3/4 Jace and is BS every turn and you have absolutely nothing, Keranos won't change anything. But to be fair there is no card out there that will win you the game.

Your arguments vs Death and Taxes show me that you maybe didn't play a lot against the mentioned decks. Ports and Wastelands are only an issue if they have Aether Vial ( less than 50% of the games). Otherwise it's impossible to apply real pressure and to tax our mana.

Mangara? Are you serious, who plays this card anymore. I can't remember the last time someone played it against me. Is outdated for Death and Taxes.

I don't say Keranos is the new bread&butter for this deck, he's a decent SB card that could replace something like a 3rd Entreat, Gideon etc.

Evidently Adryan has never heard of a card called Lightning bolt in Jund and he believed the games tend to go long every single time. Furthermore, he seemed to be oblivious about Choke. Based on his assessment of the match-up, or the misleading thereof, why would anyone be convinced of his argument regarding Keranos?

Also, what does a Miracle thread have anything to do with Gideon? Why is this guy stuck in an age of associating Gideon with Legacy Miracles while making claims that people don't run Mangara in DnT?

[Adryan]

You can make some arguments against Keranos, but it's definetely not that you are low on life or becuse of Lightning Bolt.
Based on what you are writing Jund is unbeatable, brutally fast and we are very quick dead on board. Only with endless luck we're capable of finding a Entreat before Turn 5 before we die in a flurry of Lightning Bolt.

Jund is a slow, grindy MU, normally games tend to go long. Some arguments can be made against Keranos, something like that he can be Pyroblasted on the Stack, but definetely not your arguments. Why do you want to keep all Lightning Bolts as a Jund player?

I don't associate Miralces with Gideon (which can be a sweet 1of against decks like Jund etc.; it's not bad). I said it"s a possible 1of in the Sb.

How does that have anything to do with Mangara, which is an outdated Maindeck (!) card? Do you understand the difference of a Maindeck card and a sweet 1of in the SB? Hopefully....
Maybe you should play more real games, instead of theorycrafting wrong all day. Your assumptions about how the Jund/ DT MU's play out are just wrong.

Choke is not a commonly played SB card (not good against Tempo, only decent) in Jund decks. On Magic Online it is, but metagame is different there... I could write nowa about how Choke is not a huge threat and how to play against it, but i'm getting tired.... Nevertheless i will happily read your answer, please make it full of MU analysis. Could you please write about something complex, like the mirror or games against Esper? How do these play out. No flurry of Lightning Bolts followed by a quick death, but lots of damage from fetchlands i guess ;)

[Higgs]

I think he says strategically sensible things but the way he says them is so aggressive and generally annoying that I have him in my ignore list for a while. Every now and then someone quotes him (which makes me see the post) and I sometimes agree with what he says but get stressed reading that argumentative tone.

[YamiJoey]

Keranos costs 5, and we usually only play 3 Jaces. I think that's the end of this discussion.

[Dzra]

Keranos costs 5, and we usually only play 3 Jaces. I think that's the end of this discussion.

Yeah, however saucy his interactions with Top might be, at the end of the day, he costs five.

So, speaking of cards that rock... Blue Elemental Blast.

[Cipher]

Keranos costs 5, and we usually only play 3 Jaces. I think that's the end of this discussion.

lol. Well put.

[mike1987]

I have seen PV video when playing miracles, he is a fan of jamming tops or counterbalances into daze as his theory is it will set them back a turn and the longer you wait, the more daze/pierces they might have. What is the take on this? Is it advisable to jam it or play around it?

[Einherjer]

I have seen PV video when playing miracles, he is a fan of jamming tops or counterbalances into daze as his theory is it will set them back a turn and the longer you wait, the more daze/pierces they might have. What is the take on this? Is it advisable to jam it or play around it?

Both. It's important to know when to jam and when to play around. Read your opponent, take a look at your hand and choose your role. It's very short from me because I gotta leave now - if you want a more detailed response, let me know - but the essence is portrayed above.

Greetings

[Dzra]

I have seen PV video when playing miracles, he is a fan of jamming tops or counterbalances into daze as his theory is it will set them back a turn and the longer you wait, the more daze/pierces they might have. What is the take on this? Is it advisable to jam it or play around it?

I would almost never jam it. Dazing doesn't really set them back much at all. Sure the longer you wait the more Dazes/Pierces they will have, but even if you have multiple Counterbalances, would they rather have to double Pierce/Daze your turn 4 Counterbalance or would they rather Daze your turn 2 CB then Pierce your turn 3 CB? If you play around Pierce and Daze, that's a full 8 more cards that are nearly dead in their hands. If you start forcing them to 2-for-1 themselves then it gets pretty hard to lose to Delver decks.

[Malakai]

I would almost never jam it. Dazing doesn't really set them back much at all. Sure the longer you wait the more Dazes/Pierces they will have, but even if you have multiple Counterbalances, would they rather have to double Pierce/Daze your turn 4 Counterbalance or would they rather Daze your turn 2 CB then Pierce your turn 3 CB? If you play around Pierce and Daze, that's a full 8 more cards that are nearly dead in their hands. If you start forcing them to 2-for-1 themselves then it gets pretty hard to lose to Delver decks.

Don't take his advice as "jam it into daze/pierce every time". There are times when you want to, and times when you don't. Knowing the difference is a difficult skill to master.

[twndomn]

I have seen PV video when playing miracles, he is a fan of jamming tops or counterbalances into daze as his theory is it will set them back a turn and the longer you wait, the more daze/pierces they might have. What is the take on this? Is it advisable to jam it or play around it?

Actually, Lossett does that sometimes as well. I believe it's match-up dependent. For example, in Miracle vs RUG, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to jam CB onto the board, especially when mongoose is not in play.

This topic is precisely the reason I hate PV's "PV’s Playhouse – Hard Decks" article so much. PV's understanding of Miracle is jamming CB onto the board, play 4 Jaces, therefore the decision tree is easier than Elves/Storm, therefore his rating is lower. When in fact it's not. To jam or not to jam, often the correct response is "it depends," which is equal if not harder than the corresponding decision Elves have to make. From Elves' perspective, the decision to glimpse or not to glimpse often is clear-cut dichotomy.

[Dzra]

Don't take his advice as "jam it into daze/pierce every time". There are times when you want to, and times when you don't. Knowing the difference is a difficult skill to master.

I'm sure there's scenarios now and again where it might make sense to just go for it, but I think those are mostly just against Combo decks that can threaten you before you have much mana online (Reanimator in particular). The only thing I can really think of against a Delver deck would be jamming a blindly drawn Terminus (when you have no Brainstorms in hand) or perhaps running a Brainstorm/Ponder into a potential Daze/Pierce. Other than those, what would be an example of a time when it's right to just jam something (particularly something vital like Counterbalance, Plow, or Top) against a Delver deck?