[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[wonderPreaux]

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious.

D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

[plowshares]

D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

[Lemnear]

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious.

If that is suprising for you, I recommend reading through the last 10 or so pages where the switches are explained. The decks are still about 4 playsets away from each other which is nearly the same gap as RUG Delver and Patriot have. Just saying...

Edit: Dug out the post!

On the draw this means you HAVE to go off turn one. With protection, if you want to battle Force.
What are the odds of drawing such a hand with the current TES list? Below 10% I'd say.

On the play you have a turn more, which you typically use to cantrip into a better hand.
But what are your chances of drawing a turn two kill with discard protection? Are they over 50%? I'm not sure.
And let's not forget that when we go for it turn 2, we are also weak to Pierce / Fluster.
So the question is: what are you willing to gamble on? I usually draw hands WAY too weak to count on stuff like this.


@Pat: Ad Nauseam is a LOT better in TES than in ANT, because you can easily cast it with nothing floating. Also Rite is much faster than Cabal Ritual, so your argument that Ad Nauseam in ANT is just as fast as in TES is incorrect, I'm affraid.

Lets not forget that we have the same amount of discard main AND a full set of Wishes to grab the sideboard-discard. It's completely legit to discard Hymn first in case you can't go off and burn a second discard or Wish for the FoW.

The was I see it, you have 2 additional advantages with TES:
1) Having the option to race 2cc/3cc hate
2) running an additional virtual playset of discard in form of Burning Wishes

[wonderPreaux]

I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

[Asthereal]

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed.

[d0nkey]

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed.

If you auto-lose to wasteland in TES, you might be doing it wrong.


Do we really need to be debating over who's weiner is bigger?

[plowshares]

you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

We have been in a wasteland/taxing-counter tempo metagame for a long time now. Delver has been winning what seems to be every event lately. You use BUG as an example of a deck that uses permanent hate, but it is the perfect example of a deck that uses a wasteland/taxing-counter disruption package (with a bit of hand disruption added in). You also mention death and taxes, but when is the last time that deck won anything (I think it was about 6 months ago). Miracles, I will give you, but that matchup is rough as ANT or TES so that point seems moot.

As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all. You say that ANT is only slightly better than TES against wasteland (which I disagree with), but why would you give up those percentage points to a card that defines the format.

[tadiou]

Because of what you gain in other areas, obviously. Why do you play one deck over another? One configuration over another? Because they offer advantages in ways that you feel comfortable with.

"As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all."

Why does anyone play any deck ever then? Most decks aren't well equipped to deal with well timed wastelands, the best you can do is minimize it, and part of minimizing it is through construction and understanding that it's possible just on speed alone to make wasteland irrelevant. I think you're overvaluing the impact of wasteland (as evidence from that cherry picked quote where you say pretty much exactly what your position is).

[Asthereal]

This discussion has gone down to a level so low I hardly feel like responding anymore.
I never said TES loses to Wasteland. And those who think it does are idiots.

What is true, is that TES is more vulnerable to Wasteland than ANT.
So many Wastelands in the meta means ANT could have a slight edge compared to TES.

And I don't see why TES vs. ANT is a non-discussion at all. TES and ANT are pretty similar. TES has evolved to something a bit more ANTish and ANT has evolved into something a bit more TESsy. Still, the differences are there, and the question which would be a bit better in the current meta is a very valid question, that can be posed in either thread.

[zangoasyl]

[Lemnear]

So what? Thalia and Eathersworn Canonist exist. A Rule of Law with 1 power donesn't matter

[NoizeMe]

Provide a link. Because up until a few months ago when we started playing Pyroblast I was running a non-japanese foil Swarm in my sideboard.

Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...orchester.html

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

[Lemnear]

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)


Edit:

Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...orchester.html

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

[Togores]

New hatebear

1W
Egid~something of the gods.
Cresture enchantment - human soldier

You have hewproof.


2/1

[Lemnear]

Aegis of the Gods - 1W

Human Soldier

You have hexproof

2/1

Ok, density of storm-hatebears in this set gets ridiculous

[Togores]

They just hate us

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

[Lemnear]

They just hate us

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

SneakShow is as good as ever due to being a basic combo mechanic of "resolve a single spell"

[Togores]

I dont want to go into the off topic.
But sneak is good cause it destroys everything. But last friday I played. And went 2-3 (wich is my worst results in months) cause une rug with 4 reb for tnn and 2 blue blast. Destroyed me.
And the pairing vs bug delver is hard as fuck. Wastalant. Hymn. Seize. Counters. Pressure an liliana on top of that.

[DarkJester]

True Believer does not get killed by a single Dread of Night.

[Bryant Cook]

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.

As for the storm bears in this set, I don't think any of them are better than anything else that has been printed in previous sets. We'll be fine.