Here's a video of me playing vs Affinity on MTGO:
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
Something along the lines of this? http://www.mtgvault.com/deckstobuy/d...gue-hermit-30/Originally Posted by Matt
Took out manamorphose since cantrips hurt this version and there's 17 virtual black sources. It's just a prototype though, let me know what you think.
Last edited by MST negates; 01-26-2014 at 12:39 PM.
Last post got a lot of views on the deck list but no critique, so I've put together two deck concepts for everyone to check out (and hopefully comment on):
The first is naturally dubbed The Rogue Hermit, with 10 protection spells six of which are "free". The deck removes wishing and just has three goals being mana, combo, and protection. Including four main Tinder Wall from lack of wish which improves the transformative side and allows for enchant/artifact hate in the form of Hull Breach. This deck can be viewed here: http://www.mtgvault.com/deckstobuy/d...-up-hermit-10/
The second list is (please don't flame for this, I needed a way to categorize) Oops! All Spells. OAS differs in that it runs the suite of cantrips which I believe is less competitive and more tabletop therefore, and due to lack of space, ignores the protection aspect. This attempts to increase chances of T1 kills in exchange for actually knowing what your opening hand is. This deck can be viewed here: http://www.mtgvault.com/deckstobuy/d...und-up-oas-10/
Not to say one is strictly better, but I would be more inclined to take The Rogue Hermit to a competition over Oops! All Spells.
MDing Living Wish and SBing Lion's Eye Diamond just feels wrong because you're not always playing vs Blue.dec game 1 for Pact of Negation to be of any use and your opponent isn't playing any hate game 1 to make going all in with LED prohibitive.
I find Unmask to be really dubious compared to Chancellor of the Annex whenever you're on the play and compared to Guttural Blast whenever you're on the draw, I play with Chancellor of the Tangle which may weight Guttoral Blast in favour of Unmask but in my experience having to discard a black card over spirit guide to pay for Unmask really hurts because it conflicts with Chrome Mox a lot. You could always run a Deathrite Shaman to up the total black card count for Unmask by 5 virtually but it's a really weak play by itself.
That wish board is also "bleh," you're going to need a Swamp for certain and probably an Ancient Tomb if you're going to play the Belcher alt kill. I'm also really not sure about Spoils of the Vault, it'd make sense if you could board out Livining Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, all of the Hermits and then the rest of the combo package but you just can't cut that many cards for what you're bringing in. I think it's more sensible just to replace a part of your win conditions with Belchers - Balustrade Spy since it doesn't benefit from LED - and then free up board space to bring in Unmask and Deathrite Shaman and Xantid Swarms (I think it's still probably worth bringing in even if they keep Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay because it's really the only other card you can play with LED after Unmask and Chancellor of the Annex, being weak to Lightning Bolt and uncastable off of Simian Spirit Guide is probably worth being safe vs Stifle and Surgical Extraction, immune to Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm and you can still cast it on your first turn and have a turn left before they can Abrupt Decay and you can cast it off a Chrome Mox and pass instead of paying for it on the combo turn. I really think people are overly concerned with removal when it comes to Xantid Swarm, you actually need to give them a reason to keep removal in like Swords to Plowshares otherwise they just SB out 4 completely dead cards for stuff that's good vs us instead of making them keep 4 situational cards vs us in the MD).
it's really hard to fit all of that stuff tho' in the deck, you practically have to cut Simian Spirit Guide from the deck I think - Chancellor of the Tangle is way too important for Living Wish and Xantid Swarm.
I'm guessing like,
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
3 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Underworld Cerebrus
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Street Wraith
SB
1 Balustrade Spy
1 City of Brass
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Rough idea is to get rid of Unmask, Deathrite Shaman and Balustrade Spy for Goblin Charbelcher and either Xantid Swarm or Chancellor of the Annex depending on whether or not you're on the play or on the go. You're never going to want to board out LED when you're boarding in Belcher so Pact of Negation doesn't really make sense to me. If you don't want to play with LED and you want to play with Pact of Negation then I think the Wishless build makes the most sense. Unmask to me is really iffy tho', I think I'd rather MD Chancellor of the Annex, cut Deathrite Shaman for a Goblin Charbelcher and free up 5 SB slots by just playing with Xantid Swarm as my out vs blue decks - fuck their Lightning Bolts -. Unmask is just so resource intensive on the play or after a mulligan and it's probably worth having Simian Spirit Guide in the board for those match ups where you don't actually need disruption and hopefully wont need to remove hate because you have Belcher as a third of your win conditions in the MD and you can wish for some fatty out of the board and try to ride it to victory otherwise - something like Minion of the Wastes gives you a 2 to 3 turn clock and tramples over a True Name Nemesis or there's that 4cc 6/6 flyer, something big and dumb out of Decay and Bolt range that'd stop them from mulliganing aggressively into hate. Or we could go the Magus of the Moon route for the lock down but too many aggro-control decks play Bolt IMO so you'd need a big dumb beater anyway. Anyone have any other ideas?
I'm also trying this right now,
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Underworld Cerebrus
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Cabal Therapy
SB
4 Pact of Negation
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Grim Monolith (just trying them out vs anything we'd gold fish against on the draw like Goblins, I think redundant protection like Leyline of Sanctity or Emerald Charm is also worth trying - Jund or Junk sbing in additional 1cc discard or Nihil Spellbomb is disconcerting and some people are sadistic enough to play Leyline of the Void in fair decks like Goblins)
Hmm, cutting Balustrade Spy for Goblin Charbelcher MD and only playing 1 copy of Balustrade Spy in the SB seems like a really interesting idea that'd save quite a bit of SB space. But then why would you play this over just playing Blecher if you're not playing Pact of Negation and in favour of Lion's Eye Diamond anyway? Meh, I think I'd rather just play the wishless list and take the mulligan with only 8 win conditions.
@Final Fortune
Agreed on all points. The wish list was specifically for Matt as a benchmark idea, personally not a fan of it only being able to rely on one extra mana somewhat consistently, with the addition of slowing the deck down. Unmask was mentioned previously in the forum and thought I'd test it out, with the same results as you mentioned (too much hand disadvantage).
Aside from the standard 48, I'm now trying out a set of Chancellor of the Tangle, Tinder Wall, and Rite of Flame. Reason being the need for the deck to have a minimum of 34 mana sources with some basic math of 4 / 7 * 60 = 34 for on the play (correct me if I mathed wrong). The basic list only includes 28. Adding 12 instead of 6 for synergy and variance. This allowed for some interesting plays. As for results, after goldfishing 100 times here's the shorthand (with details available if anyone wants them):
01: 49
02: 15
03: 17
04: 09
05: 03
06: 02
10: 05
The numbers list the turns and 10 is just how I recorded flops. The biggest issue for going over 2 turns being not getting a black source, second being odd moments of dis-synergy drawing a RoF and TW w/o CotT or ESG.
Pleased with a 49%-64% turn 1 win rate, barring the reluctance to run without protection MD, the issue becomes the boarding. Your points on Xantid Swarm swayed me away from the belcher board (why try to recreate the wheel?). So for that I'm trying out a similar list to yours -1 Nature's Claim -3 Grim Monolith for a set of Abrupt Decay.
Will report back after some real matches put it to the test.
Last edited by MST negates; 01-28-2014 at 05:14 AM.
The basic list, what I consider the 8 win condition list, has 32 mana sources, 4 Dark Ritual produce an additional +1 mana and 5 Manamorphose and Street Wraith cycle for mana as well, which should be more than sufficient. If you play Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame or Grim Monolith then you have to forego disruption altogether, which is not worth it.
Also regarding the Underworld Cerberrus kill, is there a reason people play Bridge from Below other than the fear of drawing 2 Narcomoebas and Undercity Informer? As long as you have 3 Narcomoebas to sacrifice to Dread Return Underworld Cerberus, you have Underworld Cerberus to sacrifice to Cabal Therapy, recur your deck at which point you have ~8 Spirit Guides that can cast each other for an additional creature to sacrifice to a Cabal Therapy if necessary and then cast Wild Cantor, Laboratory Maniac and cycle Street Wraith. So that means we need to draw 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return or Underworld Cerberus and an Undercity Informant in order to actually need to have Bridge from Below in our deck. If you're playing the Azami kill, where all four of the kill conditions have to be in your graveyard, then I can understand using Bridge from Below as a safety net. But the Cerbrus kill only has two as opposed to four kill conditions that have to be in the graveyard so it seems like we should be able to cut Bridge from Below? Anybody done the math on that?
I've been using the Angel/Hunter kill to board out 3 kill conditions and the Bridge from Below for two extra slots, which lets me keep 2 Simian Spirit Guide to have 30 mana sources on the draw when I'm playing a full grip of Pact of Negation and Xantid Swarm or on the play I get 4 Pact of Negation and 2 Chancellor of the Annex with a full 32 mana sources left in the deck. Bridge seems like an easy cut when we're on the play post-board because the odds of drawing the nut bad are just going to be mitigated by not drawing on the first turn and being able to mulligan where increasing our disruption by 50% is no joke.
Abrupt Decay is pretty awful, 2cc is a world of difference between 1cc for this deck. I'm not even certain Nature's Claim is worth it because other than Leyline of the Void pretty much everything else in the format like Grafdigger's Cage or Nihil Spellbomb get "Dazed" by Chancellor.
So I just realized Manamorphose is awful compared to Wild Cantor after a MTGO game, it gets hit with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm and Spell Snare and costs 2 mana compared to Wild Cantor being immune to all of those counters and costing 1 mana so we can cast it and store mana off of a Chancellor of the Tangle or Chrome Mox. Manamorphose is kind of like Belcher's Seething Song, if you let the opponent counter it you've pretty much invested too many resource to win the game where with Wild Cantor you can lay out a hand with 4 mana plus Wild Cantor and a win condition and unless they know to counter, or they can counter, any of those mana sources you can play around Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or Spell Snare completely.
I feel really dumb for missing this before, the cantrip on Manamorphose doesn't really add any value and you don't need 2 black mana sources to cast your rituals so we should probably just cut Manamorphose for the other three Wild Cantors and open up another slot for removal. 16 black filters should be just as good as 17 really, and it feels pretty fucking strong to be able to go down to 2 kill conditions, cut Bridge from Below and now have an extra slot with only 16 filters. That's either 3 more Chancellor of the Annex or Xantid Swarms with no cuts to the mana sources ... a big deal.
The idea behind running 0 disruption main is to play around soft counters if on the draw and attempt to increase your odds on the play. Obviously discard is still a factor, but on the draw I haven't seen any decent suggestions for this anyways. As far as how well it works the Rogue Hermit decks at SCG opens attempted the same and have topped, this being just a more refined version.
From my understanding it isn't so much an issue of Azami or Cerberus, or even drawing into Narcomoeba so much as it is not drawing into a black source to imprint imprint on Chrome Mox. Theory being if you run 4 Narc and 0 Bridge how many times would have rather had drawn 1 Bridge with a 3/2 split imprinting for the black source. The 3/2 split being able to have one Narcomoeba get StP'd and hands where you draw into 1 Narcomoeba and 1 Bridge to Cabal Bridge and Cabal Narcomoeba to give you 3 tokens to sac to Dread being an added benefit.
Abrupt Decay is just a test slot, as is the entirety of the side barring PoN. With the main focusing on consistency that allows 12 to swap in bringing the turn 1 win chance on par as most other lists for game 2 with a full disruption suite. Though admittedly I have not tested Chancellor of the Annex as I do not own a set.
This is exactly why I couldn't get behind the Cerberus package, it's deceivingly less than the Azami package but at minimum you would need to run Street Wraith which is 3 more cards than Azami, makes mull decisions harder, and do not feel the benefit of being able to imprint a SW is worth it. The fact that these lists also run sets of GP and Manamorphose just compounds the issue. Again, being able to see your opponents hand with GP, though extremely valuable, doesn't makeup for what it forces upon this deck imho.
Aside from the above, most people seem pretty content with their mainboard or at least are on the cusp of finishing it. I was wondering how people are doing with their sideboard? The main issue seems to be a watered down belcher or disruption package. For both, I was wondering what results ya'll are getting.
Does this deck have a higher 1st turn kill % than Belcher?
Considering ETW is 7/11 of Belcher's win conditions and doesn't kill the opponent until T3, yes.
@MST Negates
I don't use Gitaxian Probe at all and I don't play more than 1 Street Wraith, so the Cerberus kill is essentially trading 1 dead card for 1 Street Wraith and has 2 kill cards that can be either in your hand or in your graveyard to win compared to the Azami kill needing all 3 kill cards in your graveyard to win. If cutting black cards for imprinting Chrome Mox is a problem, and I'm not convinced it is yet, then even replacing Bridge from Below with another Cabal Therapy, Unmask or Street Wraith adds value because they aren't strictly dead cards. I don't buy the Street Wraith makes mulliganing harder argument at all, if you replaced Street Wraith with the dead card from the Azami kill condition then you're just playing a dead card compared to having a choice of cycling Street Wraith. Even if you're not confident in your ability to choose correctly, then you're back to playing the same number of dead cards as the Azami kill condition and you still have 2 kill conditions that you don't have to worry about Cabal Therpaying out of your hand - so what have you really lost by playing it?
Living Wish is an ok card, even without LED you can still use it to tutor for a Swamp and a kill condition, but it doesn't retain the same mana parody as Manamorphose or Wild Cantor do and it tends to slows the deck significantly as a result. The Manamorphose cantrip is really just a lure that says "counter me instead of Dark/Cabal Ritual" or you risk me drawing into a Pact of Negation, Cabal Therapy or another mana to pay for Spell Pierce. I think Wild Cantor is just better tho' right now because Spell Snare is back in people's MDs and SBs thanks to True Name Nemesis and Stoneforge Mystic decks, they have to counter it earlier in the mana chain with Force of Will so they lose two cards and we only lose one card compared to Manamorphose getting Spell Pierced.
I'm really not sure only playing 100% mana makes this deck any better than Belcher, while you have a higher win by turn x% by discounting the two turns it'd take ETW to kill the opponent you have a lower go off by turn x% unless you're playing Lion's Eye Diamond, in which case you're not playing Pact of Negation. Steven Menedian's solution was to play Living Wish and Pact of Negation in the MD and just use Living Wish as an expensive win condition and an inefficient mana filter, but I've played that list a lot and it's significantly slower than the 8 win condition list that aggressively mulligans to make up for the lack of win conditions 9-11. It can sort of make up for it by getting Swamp or City of Brass to play Cabal Therapy or Xantid Swarm respectively, gaining the mana investment back over multiple turns, or by getting that CIP tapped land that produces 2 black mana but it's just trading off speed vs card advantage.
If you're not familiar with the list it's something like,
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Living Wish
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
4 Pact of Negation
3 Cabal Therapy
1 (Open Slot, I used Manamorphose or a second Wild Cantor)
If you play the 3 Narcomoeba, 2 Bridge from Below configuration for the 2 additional dead cards then you can't SB out the Bridge from Below(s) for more disruption, usually you brought in Angel of Glory's Rise, Fiend Hunter and 4 Xantid Swarms for Sutured Ghoul, Dragon's Breath, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy and the open slot - and yes I think Sutured Ghoul is the best kill condition MD because the 3rd Cabal Therapy compared to the 3rd dead card in the Azami kill or Street Wraith in the Cerberus kill is better in conjunction with Living Wish -> Swamp, Cabal Therapy go.
SB
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Swamp
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Fiend Hunter
and then people usually played additional lands like City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, Pete Bog, Cavern of Souls and Tomb of Urami depending on your risk tolerance for Wasteland.
I had moderate success with just cutting the alternate kill condition, Xantid Swarms and all of the lands other than Swamp, Pete Bog and Ancient Tomb (for decks without Wasteland) and playing the 3 Narcomoeba/2 Bridge from Below split with the 4th Cabal Therapy MD and not caring about Maze of Ith etc. if you want SB space and black cards to imprint on Chrome Mox but if you want to play the 4 Narcomoeba/1 Bridge from Below split, the 2nd Wild Cantor and the City of Brass in the SB that's obviously fine too. Cabal Therapy feels like a real disruption card in the Livinig Wish builds so I don't put as much stock in Xantid Swarm here as I do in the 8 win condition build.
I don't think this variant ever placed well, but theoretically I always thought it had some merrit. I usually just ended up playing with LED in the MD and Pact of Negation in the SB game 1 and banked on 4 Cabal Therapy as my disruption but "balls to the wall" isn't exactly everyone's style. The problem with Steve's build as far as I'm concerned is that it's just slow enough to make Deathrite Shaman a real threat so a deck like Jund actually has a very real chance vs you.
Not much has changed w/ the Dread Return - Azami package, still just running the basic 48 w/ 12 other mana sources main deck relying on a protection sideboard.
I have become interested in the PiF package, and while most would likely argue against combining LED and PoN I like how it gives your protection for your Rogue Hermit pre-combo and after PiF giving you ample protection for the kill. Leaving you vulnerable only in between those spots only if you had to crack an LED for the extra {G}. The bonus of not having to worry about spot removal and the lack of dead cards replaced (mostly) by situational cards seems strictly better. The biggest issue I have with it is how slow it is, at least with my build. If anyone has any pointers on how to speed it up it'd be appreciated.
Artifact (12)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Creature (25)
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Undercity Informer
1x Wild Cantor
Instant (17)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
1x Memory's Journey
1x Noxious Revival
3x Pact of Negation
4x Summoner's Pact
Sorcery (6)
1x Deep Analysis
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Living Wish
1x Past in Flames
Sideboard(15)
4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Burning Wish
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Hull Breach
EDIT: Removed Living Wish package, never seems to make the cut. Changed things around a bit to accommodate transformative side and improve odds of turn x combo. Should note that I really wish I could find a way to include some form of protection in both mb & sb but atm only the PiF has protection via PoN. Possibly by dropping Burning Wish for Xantid Swarm, 4th PoN, and something else.
Last edited by MST negates; 02-02-2014 at 06:51 PM.
Hi everybody!
I have aquestion for those whose use the belcher plan post side.
How do you feel when you fece u decks¿?
I know that flippping your strategy great for almost most mu, but a u player maybe will side in grave hate and probably more counters. So if yo u go for belcher grave hate will do nothing but additional counters matters.
thx"
GC
I don't think it's a good plan, if they have hate then they have hate; you're better off dedicating your SB to Livining Wish targets and anti-hate like Leyline of Sanctity or Nature's Claim.
I think Steve knew what he was doing when he built this deck for Legacy, I prefer the Sutured Ghoul kill and the full set of Cabal Therapy myself, but the Livining Wish plan is just so damn consistent because it can grind games out. The real strength of this deck is that it's packing 8 disruption spells between Pact of Negation and Cabal Therapy and Living Wish -> Swamp with the threat of Cabal Therapy or Living Wish -> Cavern of Souls and the ability to win instantly.
You've got the speed of belcher, trade token hate for graveyard hate but can actually play thru' counters.
Could you share a detailed list? :)
Post 531
Is there any interest in using recross the paths or for tutor fetch?
I tinkered with it in belcher .
I still run the Cerberus kill on MTGO, I just feel like it's too convoluted for no reason. :P
Maybe I'm just tired, lol.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
I just realized while brainstorming that Summoner's Pact can find creatures with forestcycling (i.e. Elvish Aberration). There are 4 total forestcycling creatures but aberration is best since you can put it in off SnT and win next turn. I think this opens up the door to test Land Grant in the deck since you now have 10 ways of getting the Bayou out of the deck. A starting point would be something the lines of:
//Mana
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Elvish Aberration
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
//Enablers
4 Undercity Informer
4 Balustrade Spy
//Combo Pieces
4 Narcomoeba
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Street Wraith
For those interested, the past in flames version would probably look like the following. Please note that living wish->magus of the moon/tomb of urami bypasses the bayou restriction as well.
//Mana
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
2 Grim Monolith
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
1 Elvish Aberration
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
//Enablers
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
//Combo Pieces
1 Memory's Journey
1 Deep Analysis
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
Last edited by nudon; 04-16-2014 at 01:46 AM.
Does someone explain the bent one to me with the Memory's Journey?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote