I have begun testing Eidolon Of Blossoms, not bad as a one of at the moment...
@Dihensoeur Why Leafcrown Dryad over say Courser Of Kruphix or Boon Satyr, because it can block Delvers or the Bestow is cheap enough that you can voltron them
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
Thanks.Originally Posted by FTW
Thanks.
For me, Leafcrown Dryad is actually the best enchantment creature. Yes, it's because it can block Delvers and cost only 2. A card that cost 3 is very expensive in the Legacy world and have to be a excellent card to be played.
I already thought about Courser of Kruphix or Boon Satyr:
Courser of Kruphix: 2/4 allow us to block what ? Tarmo is often 4/5 and more with our countered enchantments, Batterskull is 4/4 and Courser can't block fly creatures.
Its ability allow us to dig a little more by playing land from top instead of from hand, but we show to opponents our top. So they know our hand every time and can prepare their strategies. If Courser allow us to play an extra land, the card would have been better.
Boon Satyr: 4/2 Flash, so die vs all creatures with 2 power and can't stop Tarmo or fly creatures. I can't see the utility in the Legacy.
About Eidolon, the card is very too expensive for me. I think that a Legacy card has to cost 0~2 manas, 3 if the card has an important impact, 4 or more if the card gives us the victory. It's a shame that the card doesn't cost 2 u_u.
Regards,
Dihensoeur.
Since you are running 4 GsZ, you only have enchantress as your target and you are able to produce much mana, do you think it would be possible to include a green creature like Progenitus as a tutorable win condition?
Ignorance is strength
Yes, absolutely. I talk about this in the N&D thread. The pro is Progenitus will shuffle in regardless of RIP being on the battlefield or not as it is a replacement effect. The cons are it is impossible to cast from the hand. You can get it back in the deck by discarding (be it to confinement, or just down to 7 cards)
Having said that when I compare it to Emrakul, Emrakul is just better. He re-shuffles the whole deck. If I'm in a MU where that is important (Painter, Hightide) I simply do not cast or board out RIP. Emrakul is also targetable by Karakas to go truly infinite (we can not draw out by re-shuffling GSZ's) I have won many games with this tactic. You can attack and bounce before damage to get around cards line Baleful Strix only to re-cast and get your extra turn to do it again.
Overall as wincon 2 goes Emrakul is far better than GSZ-ing for Progenitus at a negligible 4 mana difference.
Your considerations seem right, but I wasn't advocating of playing Progenitus instead of Emrakul, but in addition to him (it?).
I suppose that you want to have the least possible number of win condition in your deck in order to avoid drawing them when it's not necessary (ie, in the starting 7), but I also noted that you actually cannot tutor for Emrakul nor Helm: it would be nice to get value of a mid game Zenith for closing the game.
Take my points with a grain of salt though, since I haven't played the deck in a long time.
Ignorance is strength
Belcher only cares about Leyline/Elephant Grass (depending on which win condition they are going for), unless they get a bad opener and try to go off as late as turn 2 on the draw without Burning Wish for Reverent Silence.
True, post-board there are a lot of answers for these problematic decks. But most enchantress lists (including yours) run few-to-none main. Traditional enchantress lists run a lot of durdle and a lot of anti-aggro main. Oblivion Rings, Leylines, Suppression Fields, Stony Silence, Teeg.. these tend to be sideboard cards. Karakas typically doesn't get played in multiples due to dependence on early green (and sometimes cost restrictions). That makes game 1 look much worse. If post-board the matches are closer to 50-50, that means on average you still expect to lose in 3 games fairly often, especially if the opponent has good SB answers.
But given how little aggro is in the top tier, that the format is more tempo and combo, maybe the main should change away from durdle and towards more copies of these interactive cards main? There's probably a way to do that while preserving the shell. Maybe black splash with discard and Confidant. Maybe with more of those white disruptive enchantments main. I guess if you're getting results that's good enough, but lack of recent SCG top 8s for Enchantress should mean something.
Instead of Progenitus, what about something castable like Sigarda, Host of Herons (also hexproof, still shutting off removal, while also shutting off edict effects on Argothians) or Terastodon or whatever? In addition to Emrakul.
I don't want to give the impression that I don't support alternative directions in building Enchantress. I completely do, I just think that Dihensoeur's approach of adding a cantripping chump blocker is a poor one.
I think interactive cards are what we want in general, so redesigning to focus on improving across-the-board interaction is best.
The list of nonland things I'd keep in the maindeck from current lists (no numbers, just the cards themselves) are:
Argothian Enchantress
Enchantress's Presence
Thoughtseize
Elephant Grass
Suppression Field
Oblivion Ring or Detention Sphere
Rest in Peace
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Mirri's Guile
Sterling Grove
Wild Growth
Utopia Sprawl
Seal of Primordium/Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence
Cards in Current lists that I'm on the fence about:
Green Sun's Zenith
Enlightened Tutor
Replenish
Argivian Find
Solitary Confinement
OR
Sphere of Safety AND Leyline of Sanctity
Additional cards to consider:
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Dark Confidant
Words of Waste
Words of War
Words of Wind
Energy Field
Sylvan Library
Additional Fetchlands
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Liliana of the Veil
Mind Shatter
Abrupt Decay
Swords to Plowshares
Many of these cards aren't Enchantments and so don't play well with the engine, especially if we're relying on Solitary to stay alive, so it may be time to drop it in order to be more flexible. On the other hand, we could drop the cards that stall against creatures down to lower numbers while keeping some number of Confinements and not being able to power out Enchantments as aggressively. Sylvan + Guile + additional fetchlands actually seems excellent if we're on a toolbox plan because it allows us to see up to six cards/turn (leave a fetch up, resolve guile, fetch on upkeep, then move to draw and use Sylvan). Those hesitant to cut mana-producing lands for additional fetches, can always run a one-of Riftstone Portal, I guess. In general, it may be necessary to move to a more traditional, 4 or 5 color list in order to keep up.
I don't know how big the tournament was, but this list got 8th in a SCG Super Invitational Qualifier in Connecticut a month ago.
// Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Enchantments
1 Blind Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War
// Instants
1 Crop Rotation
1 Enlightened Tutor
// Sorceries
1 Replenish
// Lands
5 Forest
3 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Blind Obedience
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Replenish
You are correct in saying that Enchantress should be as interactive as possible to achieve advantage, however I don’t feel currently that Enchantress has to adopt a 3rd or a 4th color out of GW to do so.
I think with the right mix of cards Enchantress can be as effective in creating a prison like game state on the order of Death & Taxes with a combo-eque explosiveness of Elves.
My list was started at the spoiling of RTR, and has morphed from there. The list was set-up to be U control and tempo which were dominating at the time. Since then BUG, BURG, and Jund all came onto the scene. I have made adjustments to “answer” those decks but I never reflected and gone back to the drawing board to see if there is a better overall way to attack the meta.
In doing so I have contemplated over the last month is RIP / Helm is even needed? I would say that in the games I have plated RIP / Helm is boarded out over games 2 & 3 over a majority of the time. This is done to hit the critical mass of hate over those games. I have no issue making this call since Emrakul is so difficult to deal with in it’s entirety given he shuffles into the deck if in the grave. I know there are cards that can be used when his shuffle effect is on the stack, but frankly decks fighting piles of targeted hate, fighting the engine, and fighting to win afford those cards? More often than not the answer is no. Therefore, I have been a huge proponent for Helm / RIP, but is it right for this meta? …I don’t know.
The bare bones of Enchantress that I want to build today is as follows :
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Enchantress’s Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Emrakul
3 Mirri’s Guile
21 Land
That Equals 51 cards. 51 out of 75 leaves 24 cards to hate with. The real question is what should those 24 cards be to hate properly? If you don’t run RIP / Helm then you can run Replenish a card that can certainly swing any BGx MU
According to the Source the current DTB’s are:
Deathblade
Team America
UWR Delver
Miracle Control
Jund
Sneak and Show
Using that as your basis these are the other 24 cards you would want
3 Suppression Field
1 Elephant Grass
1 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stony Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of Sanctity
To make the following list:
MD:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Suppression Field
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Solitary Confienement
2 Replenish
2 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
10 Forest
Board:
3 Stony Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Gaddock Teeg
That list should be resilient enough to slog through that line-up and have plenty of trick up it’s sleeve for the other trick MU’s
Some additional cards to consider:
Mindbreak Trap – If you truly fear combo
Exploration – As a 2 of tops to be more explosive / punishing when we start to go off.
Aura of Silence – If it wasn’t WW I’d probably squeeze one in.
Reminders:
Green Sun’s Shuffles for a G don’t be afraid to do so.
GSZ + Emrakul + Karakas + 15 mana = win It’s pretty easy to do.
@Enchantress and T8’s – Enchantress isn’t represented much period, as it is a niche deck that does not overlap the format as far as cards for investment. T8’s are a combo of luck percentages and player skill and Enchantress just isn’t played in the percentages to see it regularly T8 a SCG, however the deck is powerful enough to make it there. How many RUG / SNT / Delver lists register and never hit the T8? When is the last time you saw a Belcher deck hit the T8? I know is prior to the last Enchantress, but it is cheaper and represented more.
I play a list like that if not that over the next couple days and see how it does. Also, I’m till trying to find the proper time to fire-up the stream.
You can't GSZ for Emrakul... he's not green.
I don't I draw Emrakul naturally. The GSZ was added to the "combo" becuase you need a card to draw for each of your extra turns. Casting GSZ places it back in your deck then you draw it again and you cast it again. Repeat. So I guess you need 16 mana if you go that route. Still pretty easy.
Ok, your line of "GSZ + Emrakul + Karakas + 15 mana = win" made it sound like you were trying to GSZ for Emrakul.
Also, why would you need GSZ if you've already gotten Emrakul + Karakas going? The likelihood of you having 0 cards in your library (which is why I'm assuming you're shuffling GSZ back in continually) is extremely low.
Without it you're not truly infinite. ...and playing this deck a lot it happens more than you would think, but many times Solitary Confinement's clause of not drawing will get you enough turns before you have to rely on GSZ shenanigans.
This has been my thinking of late, too. I don't play nearly as much as Freggle – probably not as much as anyone in this thread, really – but I've been unsatisfied with the deck's heavy reliance on its draw engines for a very long time. I've slowly been moving to more self-sufficient cards and been thinking of my enchantresses as multi-turn Glimpse of Natures rather than as engines, per se; my thoughts (and choices) on the matter are still evolving, but I'm finding that I'm playing a much more control-focused game.
I'm running:
2x Runed Halo (this has been the biggest change, as it buttresses your other defensive tactics, such as Solitary Confinement, allowing you to avoid going all-in on one protection spell ... even if its casting cost wrenches the deck heavily toward white)
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Rest in Peace
1x Back to Basics
and 0-1 of each of the following, depending on what I'm expecting and my mood (I usually have 2 flex spots for these):
Suppression Field
Story Circle (have yet to actually resolve this one, so no word on how good it is yet)
Stony Silence
Rest in Peace (as in, No. 2 MD)
I've pared back MD Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement (though I've yet to go below 4 of each in the 75), because, if you don't have significant on-board support, they're situational stall tactics. Similarly, I've been playing around with Exploration, Holistic Wisdom and Abundant Growth over Mirri's Guile; while MG is amazing in the first 2 or 3 turns, it's often irrelevant once you've got a pair of enchantresses on the field. Deck has enough dead cards already. I'm not thrilled with the results so far, however.
I also run 4x Enlightened Tutor main. I don't run Green Sun's Zenith; I'm rarely happy when I see that 3rd enchantress, and that's with just 8 maindeck. Problem's compounded with so many ways to kill shrouded x/1s running around (GOLGARI CHARM /shake fist). I've also found that my combo matchups aren't as bad (though they're still not good); 4 ET + 2 Runed Halo + 2-3 Solitary Confinement means I have a chance to get some shields up against Storm in game 1. Ditto on O-Rings vs. SnT.
What I'm trying to do is reduce the deck's reliance on enchantresses by increasing the deck's overall card quality and adding more traditional card draw. (I'm going to be tinkering around with Commune with the Gods and Insight of Kruphix next; I really, really hate drawing more than a few enchantresses.)
As to the black splash: I think it's worth exploring. Bitterblossom is strong, both offensively and defensively (and it's one more reason to run a miser's Intangible Virtue). The upcoming constellation giant, the 5-drop enchantment creature that gives opponent's duders -1/-1, holds some promise. There's at least 3 enchantment-based discard spells you can shoehorn in from the color. You get Dread of Night for DnT out of the board. And you still have Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth to make splashing a color painless. Hell, if you wanna be a hipster, you can rock Oubliettes instead of O-Rings; it's not like Omniscience was gonna pass priority with that trigger on the stack anyway.
The proper plural must be "hall of fames." You wouldn't say Halls & Oate, now, would you?
I guess this is where we differ. I'm not sure which splash(es) are the ones I want yet - Blood Moon is just free wins, but there power level of blue and black cards is higher overall - but I definitely want more than just what GW has to offer because I think that the prison strategy with explosive combo-ish kill doesn't quite get us to where we want to be, which is to have game against the top tier as a whole and getting there ourselves. By running additional colors we get to be a Jund-like board control strategy with better card advantage. I think that dedicating more that two MD slots to RiP/Helm is wrong, but I don't know if I want to drop the combo kill entirely because it is a way to "win now", which the deck lacks otherwise. I definitely think that Replenish + Swords is where we want to be for the long game.
That being said, I think that if you're going to go all-in on ramping into Emrakul, especially infinite Emrakul + Karakas, we're really just a 12-post variant with a different way of stalling until we can drop the Eldrazi.
If we're talking about more of an aggro plan, Atheros, God of Passage might be worth looking at. It does require us to focus on white enchantments, but most of our key enchantments are white anyway. It's on color if we're splashing black, and he presents a real clock once he turns on. The ability isn't bad either, because he protects Enchantresses from Golgari Charm and Liliana. He's also Replenishable.
I (mostly) agree, but while the deck is well positioned, it has a few glaring deficiencies that hurt the odds of it top 8'ing. Aside from the small number of players, those who are playing it need to dodge fast combo or get somewhat lucky against it, and to play very tightly against BUG/TA variants. I do think these matchups are about even, but I have seen people who have recently picked the deck up walking into TNN hate and getting unnecessarily 2-for-1'ed or not playing conservatively enough around Abrupt Decay. Unfortunately, we can't get paired against Stone/Deathblade and Miracles all day.@Enchantress and T8’s – Enchantress isn’t represented much period, as it is a niche deck that does not overlap the format as far as cards for investment. T8’s are a combo of luck percentages and player skill and Enchantress just isn’t played in the percentages to see it regularly T8 a SCG, however the deck is powerful enough to make it there. How many RUG / SNT / Delver lists register and never hit the T8? When is the last time you saw a Belcher deck hit the T8? I know is prior to the last Enchantress, but it is cheaper and represented more.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/jo...1-brain-maggot
this would fit well into a black build :O
Kruphix's Insight from the new set seems incredibly good in here. Scry 6 and draw 3? Yes please!
It's definitely worth testing. I'm not sure if it's better than Commune with the Gods, though.
They are good only if we run replenish
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