Sylvan Ranger is also an option as a 2 drop to ramp (of sorts)Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Non-white Pod decks now have their own Orzhov Pontiff. Look up Doomwake Giant!
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
5 mana is a lot, but gives you the potential to "go off" with recurring nightmare.
Just an update. Played with Thassa, and pulled her out about 4 times in about 20 games.
Card is absolutely nuts in the grindy matches. It feels analogous to playing Sylvan Library a bit in the deck without the raw CA. Her unblockable ability was surprisingly relevant in the stalled boards, especially vs Death and Taxes. In matches that went on forever, the amount of gas she provided was ridiculous, although I can say I think I turned her on for approximately 2 turns. I did honestly forget that Sower taking a Baleful Strix does provide me 3 devotion. I do happen to play against a lot of fair decks, and in those matchups it's a hard to deal with card that provides a ton of value for 2U.
Doomwake Giant actually seems totally reasonable in the 5 drop slot in certain metas. Having a repeatable, onesided golgari charm just seems ridiculous. 5 mana isn't "a lot". I mean, it's a 5 drop, it's probably less valued in pod decks... but provides decent synergy with deed allowing you to get a 2-for-1 value in long games when you're stretched for removal.
Considering the matchups where it would be primarily used (D&T, Elves, Decks with True-Name Nemesis):
D&T plays ports and wastelands
Elves is a combo deck that can kill turn 3
Many True-name decks are tempo decks with some amount of stifle/wasteland/daze
The only true-name decks where I wouldn't consider 5 a lot are the versions of esper stoneblade running true-name. I'm not saying the card is bad, I'd definitely try it out, but at the same time, Noxious Ghoul already existed and no one was playing that (I realize this card is better, I'm just saying).
Pod. That's pretty much where it's value lies. Most 5 drops that don't provide more value in non-pod lists won't make the cut anyway, but in pod lists, your synergy is crucial. It's also a 4/6 body. That's non-negligible as well out of 5 drops.
I don't think it's wrong to have enough methods to deal with TNN... but you're right, against Elves, it's pretty bad unless you can get to 5 mana (highly unlikely), but that's not your vector of attack against Elves anyway. But against D&T, it's durdle vs durdle. You're going to find 5ish lands or a Pod. Or both. Vs TNN, you're going to eventually outvalue their creatures if you're able to get the game going long enough, more value can't hurt. I don't know if it's necessarily where I want to be in regards to TNN, but it's something that's interesting.
The difference between Noxious Ghoul & Doomwake is that there's the enchantment sub-theme to gather more value. You're able to massacre occasionally through it. I think it'd be an upgrade here enough to consider actually playing. But yeah, I think it's interesting, but maybe not enough to warrant a spot.
Thanks for all the advice! The back and forth beatdown/control role sounds like a pretty good way to describe the deck!
I think Wickerbough Elder would definitely help my game out against my super stoneforge-y meta, although I'm not really sure what to cut for him? I'm at 4-of Top and Punishing fire, and I think I could afford to make both of those 3-of's which opens up 2 slots to potentially be used for Wickerbough?
I hadn't really looked at Sakura Tribe Elder until you mentioned him and he looks pretty great for the deck! I'm having a little trouble figuring out where he fits in, though? I know the Scapewish build runs him in addition to 4x Explorer, but in the Punishing build is he more of a SB card to be brought in after seeing Swords to Plowshares, etc?
A few other questions:
-Does anybody stream this deck or are there any good videos? I'm curious to see some experienced people play it
-What makes for a keepable hand in Nic Fit? Therapy/Explorer?
-What does Nic Fit want to do to get around GY hate? Just Abrupt Decay RiP, etc?
-At the moment I'm running maybe 3 finishers--Primeval Titan, Thrun, Thragtusk, and I've had a lot of trouble with them getting countered/etc and then not drawing my others or GSZ's to tutor for them--Could the answer be to run another finisher or two? Specifically up Primeval Titan to a 2-of. Or perhaps add a Kessig Wolf Run?
Noxious Ghoul is a 3/3 for 3BB that -1/-1 all creatures. Doomwake is a 4/6 fir 4B that -1/-1 your opponent's board with added benefits with Recurring Nightmare.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
@TheRealQuin
This is the Punishing fire list I have been playing for the last 6 months. It has been doing pretty well.
4 Grove of the burn willows
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
3 wooded foothills
3 verdant catacombs
3 swamp
2 forest
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run
4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's diving top
3 liliana of the veil
2 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 punishing fire
3 pernicious deed
1 garruk, primal hunter
3 abrupt decay
my sideboard changes, but as always it is really meta dependent. I play at the same place each week so I know what I am up against
2 surgical extraction
2 slaughter games
4 red elemental blast
2 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 blood moon
The blood moons are my method of dealing with all the lands players we seem to have. I played a 4 rounder last night and played patriot, u/w back to basic stone blade and lands 2 times for a 3-1 record. lost to one of the lands players. I also bring them in against delver decks as an additional bomb thats cheaper than smth like garruk or prime time.
Concerning your list - I love volrath stronghold. one of my favorite cards. but it really isnt needed in this type of list. its also made worse by possible grave hate post board. prime time into wolf run is probably better and would solve the 'issue' you say you have with closing games. id also run a garruk, either flip or primal over a second copy of prime time. you already have 4 gsz so you shouldnt need to run that many big guys. and landing garruk against control is usualy enough. especially if you have wolf run as well.
Thanks! That looks like a pretty great list--I'll sleeve up a Wolf Run and put Garruk Relentless in the MB and see how that goes tonight!
My main question would be how do you go about dealing with Batterskull? (my meta is stoneforge-crazy) A few people have recommended Wickerbough Elder or Acidic Slime, but I'm less sure about them.
I also think you're right and that it would be a little reactionary of me to start swapping things out for more Primeval Titans--4 GSZ should have me covered. I think I just got some bad draws on my first outing.
Mine too.
There's 2 ways to deal with Batterskull. 1) Hold your therapies (and/or flashbacks) until they play SFM. 2) Once Batterskull is in play. Use Acidic Slime. Wickerbough Elder is "okay" but, like Qasali Pridemage, requires activation cost. So you're essentially paying 6 mana when an Acidic Slime would get you the same sort of effect & game vs troublesome lands as well (assuming that you're indeed GSZing for either or). Basically, your best weapon vs Batterskull is to force them to discard it. Now, granted if it's late in the game, it gets difficult. But, when you're including a Wolf Run, you actually get a little joy from having a deathtouch trample +x/0 creature on the loose.
@ Batterskull question -
I have never found batterskull a problem EXCEPT when it gets equipped to a TNN. SFM should never live to untap against a deck with 4 fire, 3 decay, 3 deed and 3 lily. if she does its ok because by that time its turn 4 or 5 and you should be able to assert control with things like deed and fires. obviously therapy and in my version TS also help as a way to get it from the hand. Thrun is also a way to block forever as most SFM do not have a way to actually get him off the board.
I'd recommend playing some more games against SFM -> Bskull because i am sure you will see that if thats the way the game goes you are heavily favored.
@ Garruk-flip
I like him and was running him for a few months but ended up replacing with PH. My thoughts -
- Garruk is boltable turn he comes down and makes a token (not good value)
- He does not kill many things we already have problems killing
- 2/2 and 1/1 dtouch wolves are worse than 3/3's
- Decayable after flipping
+ way to kill explorer in a pinch
+ 1 mana cheaper, and only 1 green means less problems with playing it at exactly 4 mana as opposed to 3 green out of 5
+ great synergy at tutoring creatures up
after all that i decided that the times i cast garruk i usually could/would be casting PH and PH is just a lot better, actual CA much quicker and 3/3 offers up a lot more to offer rather than spamming 2/2s.
Just some thoughts but i'd like to hear how you like flip garruk and let me know if there is situations when he is played where one or other would be the best call as i could be converted back as i do love me some play witness sac witness go and get another witness to chain all of your bombs out of your deck.
BTW, seems most ppl posting lately have been on pod lists. Is this due to the sideboard that blue pod offers or that the main deck is better? I feel like pod is slightly worse against fair decks than the fires list but you get an improved combo game? or is it that pfire is not what you want to be doing in this meta???
It's different. I think. It, like pretty much every nic fit list, is good against fair decks, because your fair plays are better than theirs usually. There's a lot of action with the Blue Pod decks (well, just all of the Pod decks), where you're able to manouever a lot of situations that I think both the Scapeshift/Punishing lists wouldn't be able to get out of, and to be fair, won't get into sometimes. The exchange is a much higher skill cap and precognition to how you're going to win the game. There's a brutal amount of scenarios to be had and combinations to get that you don't just get with using GSZ because Pod, like Pod does, rolls a cascading decision tree. I think it plays less the control deck than any previous incarnations of Nic Fit, but, in turn allows you to be a little more proactive with the board state and roll over decks because of the ridiculous amount of value that it can gain. It snowballs much like Shardless BUG does, but in a fair way.
@ Pod Lists
That seems a fair assessment. In my opinion ( I have not played Pod but I have played Vet decks almost exclusively in legacy for 1.5 years now) I just cannot see what situations I would want to be pod over smth like Pfire. Scapewish seems different as your just trying to combo kill with a beatdown back up (similar to elves). I was more trying to get at what are the differences in matchups.
Nic fit in general is good against fair and a dog to combo. that much is obvious. I am just thinking, say i am heading to an SCG with a nic fit deck, why pod over fire? I think the only real reasons are you want blue SB cards over red (Rebs + games being the biggest red additions) or the idea is that pfire isnt good. If pfire is good then I think that list is far and away a more consistent and powerful deck.
This is nothing against pod, its the version we usually see at scg if we get a match. I am really am just trying to distill down what the pod -> junk -> scapewish -> fire -> bug versions try to do that is different. All these decks change certain matchups slightly worse or better.
Therapy or other discard after Stoneforge is definitely the best way to deal with Batterskull, but if you dont draw into discard and it hits the field, it becomes a lot trickier, especially if they have the mana to protect it.
I suggested something with an activation cost like Pridemage or Wickerbough because you can GSZ for them and activate the ability in response to them bouncing the Batterskull. If they respond to the GSZ, you can get something else for value and then use Therapy to force them to discard it.
In other news, Thassa has replaced Jace 2.0 in my list... Wallet Sculptor just hasnt been pulling his weight and GodTop is really good.
Pod can also come down early and then just start tutoring things unlike with GSZ which is much worse vs like Spell Pierce or Daze. Also it is less reliant (in a way) on the GY
ScapeWish is the only variant that can end games quickly with Burning Wish into Scapeshift for the win. Rector probably has the best game versus combo simply because of Nether Void and Moat. Various Pod lists are somewhere in between: they aim to outvalue their opponent.
As far as classic Nic Fit (including BUG, Junk, Jund, and straight BG), I feel it depends on your meta. Junk has Swords, Vindicate, Sigarda (Flier!), and Pridemage; BUG has Brainstorm and Thassa in the main, and Force of Wills in the side for the combo matchup. Jund has Punishing Fire, Huntmaster/Ravager of the Fells and REBs/Slaughter Games.
Straight has . . . Hymn? I have a feeling straight Nic Fit probably has some untapped potential with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and possibly wasteland ... maybe some sort of Pox+Nic Fit shell?
EDIT: Guess I didn't really answer your question: classic versions all have their perks and quirks in certain matchups. Blue has the best ability to filter their draws with Brainstorm, which in turn enables a greater access to GSZ targets and other 1-2 of spells. I run blue for the consistency, though in certain matchups it definitely becomes grindy as hell. Red, however, has Slaughter Games in addition to Surgical Extraction, which is just brutal against other forms of control (particularly threat-lite ones such as Miracles and other Nic Fit). White . . . I honestly have no idea where this fits.
She's pretty awesome. I think I played her 3 times in 4 rounds last night, and she made the games I was behind closer, and closed out games I was ahead faster.
Three Shardless Agents on the board vs DRS, Thassa, Thragtusk and a Baleful Strix? Without Thassa, that game would have gone way longer, with Thassa, it was over in 3 turns. It's a way to break parity without losing power necessarily.
Went 3-1 last night, with my only loss being vs UW Miracles (go figure). Lost to a Karakas-Venser thumping & Jace. One of the meh-parts of the deck is the inability to interact with Jace when necessary. Game 1, I had Thassa out, but wasn't able to land a threat without it being forced or bounced or plowed or whatever. Died to Jace with 2 Deeds on the board. I couldn't die to Angels. Just Jace (or Clique). Game 2, I was actually in the game, sorta. I was being Venser locked out without enough spells to get past Venser. I had deed in play, but a birthing pod, and I figured my best way to get past his Jace & Venser would be to resolve that Glen Elendra (I think I had 10 lands), pod it into Thragtusk and get anti-Jace value. Didn't actually come to pass. Ended up deeding for 4, blowing up his Venser & my pod. Brainstormed mainphase and put back Recurring Nightmares on top and Deed #2 on bottom. And then he played a top next turn and I drew the nightmare, and then he topped, Entreated and crushed me there. Bad brainstorm action. Thassa helps in the grind, but it's so difficult to deal with a resolved Jace.
I dont know why, but Miracles gets a lot more bang for their buck from Jace 2.0.
Anyhow for Jace, I suggest running Tar Pit if youre on BUG and Timbermare or Thrun if youre on POD (Timbermare can be both removed and countered, but can also provide some etb value and can kill Jace the turn it comes down even after a single+2 activation)
I play BUG pod and run a singleton maelstrom pulse (instead of the third deed), Thrun and creeping tar pit in the main. They are all outs to Jace, but offer additional utility besides.
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