I am not a big fan of Unexpectedly Absent and Ponder is growing on me a whole lot. The Enlightened Tutor package can definitely be strong, but I've since moved away from it to streamline my sideboard a bit. It's somewhat a matter of preference. If you really need access to bombs like Blood Moon and Ethersworn Canonist then it's fine, but I've preferred a different approach lately.Originally Posted by Lans89
Joe might be too busy doing his Detroit trip, but SCG did upload his writing: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Miracles.html
I was reading the article and came across Joe saying 12-post is horrid for you guys. I assume its due to inevitability of them casting Emrakul and even if you bounce it, they can still always recast it during the extra turn....or something like that.
Punishing Nic Fit
Yes basically eventually, just using lands they will be able to "go infinite" and there's nothing miracles can really do to stop them. Even bloodmoon or instant speed terminus isnt enough. They will just repeal the moon when they are ready to go off and terminus just saves them the step of karakas'ing emrakul.
Thanks!
Yeah I think you are right about that. I forgot to tell that vs one of the Elves decks I brought in Humility to try it out. For 3 turns I didn't cast it, even while I could (because I could draw Snapcaster or Entreat for X=3/4, and when I did (otherwise Elves had a chance to Hoof me if I passed the turn) I ended up blocking 1/1's with useless Snappies, an entreat for 4 and 2 times Jace his -1 ability, while digging for terminus and a CB lock.. Haha, I got there but it was awefull! Humility is great vs Sneaky Show and maybe Reanimate/random decks, but vs decks like Maverick or Death and Taxes you need your own creatures and worry about other things. Moat would be nice vs Goblins, Merfolk (manely because i'm scared of their 4-8 manland lately!), Elves, Dredge and some other matchups. But you are right that it looks good vs decks like Jund, but will not stay on the board.. As I said, I'm a fan of dodging Charm so siding in Moat would be bad.
Unexpectedly Absent might be to cute, but I rly wanted to give it a try! If I would run 2 karakas and a Venser main I would definitely cut it.. I havn't used Blood Moon in tournaments yet, so I don't like it that much. But while testing it has done a great job to close out some grindy games vs BUG Delver, but also Shardless BUG, Deathblade (both pretty tough matchups) and other greedy decks.. But I must say that it won't help you much vs 12-post.. Without it I could cut Enl. Tutor and create even more room! But I'm not sure.
RUG Delver is making some sort of come back I believe, do you think that we could use a little extra vs that matchup? Other thoughts about what to fear @ BoM9 =)?
Based on people I've talked to, Europe loves combo. BoM8 was 50% combo in the top 8. Miracles is built around a very nice little engine that as shown by Oarsman a couple weeks back, can back-break even experienced combo pilots.
Basically, if a combo deck doesnt win, then odds are its because Miracles did....
Punishing Nic Fit
Einherjer, could you please have the courtesy of answering questions about your article you wrote on an other website please ?
As far as BUG Delver and RUG Delver are concerned, I think they are both pretty good MUs. BUG Delver is a little harder because Counterbalance isn't reliable, but RUG is pretty simple and a resolved Counterbalance or RIP isn't going anywhere. Any of the Delver decks should be pretty good MUs, they typically don't have the threat density to put pressure on our removal suite and their soft counters are virtually useless if you play conservatively.
12-Post on the other hand is nearly unwinnable. Clique + Karakas is good and Venser + Karakas is even better. Counterbalance slows them down for a time. Blood Moon sometimes slows them down for a while as they search for Repeal or BEB. Most games against 12-Post start out with you winning; Top + Counterbalance, getting a clock going, tempoing them with FoW, etc. Eventually, however, the time comes (usually a turn or two before you can deal lethal) when they cast a creature. Primeval Titan usually ends the game on the spot, either by making a race impossible (Glimmerposts) or by finding Eye of Ugin; likewise casting Emrakul and sometimes even Ulamog pretty much means game over. Overall, I've come to the conclusion that the MU isn't even worth trying to fix. Outplay them if you can and hope that they draw nothing but bricks.
As far as Shardless BUG and Jund are concerned, I'd consider them both pretty good matchups. Jund is the tougher of the two since they run Bob and are more likely to have Sylvan Library. Put a lot of value on Entreat, since neither one can really do much to stop you Entreating EoT and swinging for lethal (Jund doesn't have counters and Shardless is only on FoW, so leaving up REB means game). Even if given the opportunity to shuffle away a dead Entreat from hand early in the game, I would rather hold onto it and wait for a Brainstorm/Jace in the mid-late game because chances are that Entreat is my best route to victory and I'd rather have to find my 6-7 of Brainstorm effect than my 2-3 of Entreat.
As far as tribal goes, Elves is almost a buy. Goblins is probably our next hardest MU to 12-Post since they have ridiculous threat density and it only takes them a turn or two to recover from a Terminus (Matron/Ringleader/etc). Fish is closer to even and perhaps favors them a bit depending on the build. Unlike Delver, they have the high threat density to back up their mana denial and countermagic. Luckily Fish isn't that strong against the Delver decks.
Combo (and particularly Burn) should theoretically be in our favor because of Counterbalance, but both are capable of explosive and unbeatable hands. They are fine MUs, but tread carefully.
I took UWR Miracles out for a spin at SCG Detroit this past weekend. I managed to finish 4-4, which I'm somewhat pleased with given my newness to the deck.
I played an E-Tutor/Blood Moon/RIP/Helm/Energy Field variant and was completely happy with it.
My losses were:
* to horribly misplaying against Pox. I should have and could have won this game.
* To storm, mulligan to 5 (keep 2 lands, 2 brainstorm, terminus), opponent casts Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy for my Brainstorms. Soul read on storm, he had two Xantid Swarm, I had one plow. Oh well.
* To the mirror. Misplays here, too, played too aggressively and lost too much material. RIP/Helm stole game 1. Aww yea.
* Naya Zoo. Who knew drawing one of 3 plows or Terminus could be so hard?
Miracles is sweet and quite powerful. However just like any control deck it greatly rewards experience with the deck.
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Rip-Helm is horrible. If opponent resolves a Liliana / JTMS, you are in serious trouble. You don't have as many Cliques/Snapcasters to put on the pressure. If you insist on E-Tutor/Blood Moon, you should give BBD's Miracles Thopter Blade version a try.
I should amend my statement: Blood Moon was awful. I would have been better served with a Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring.
♀
RIP-Helm is not Horrible it is just weaker than regular Miracles. It is fun to play but it is just easier to steal win's with Entreat since you only need one card.
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
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Ok, so these were your questions.
Thank you for this very interesting article.
I have a few questions regarding your decklist and sideboard plan :
What is your opinion about main deck REB and sideboard SFM ?
Red Elemental Blast is a valid approach to be sure, yet it is not the way I build a Controldeck like Miracles. I want to beat every deck, and I want to go undefeated. I don't plan to prey on a certain metagame, which can work out - but it can fail horribly too when you are paired against Jund, Elves and DnT all day long - and don't you tell me those are good MUs, even with REBs, just don't.
Stoneforge Mystic is interesting, powerful and has been in my mainboards and sideboards quite regularely. It is a totally valid approach to play those 3 cards (2 SFM 1 Skull) - even though I plan to not do that. It's very good against the mirror, though.
I’m not convinced about the SCM/Clique mix. With (only) 14 cheap flashbackable spells, don’t you find yourself too often with a useless SCM in your hand ? Clique has never deceived me and i would hardly ever play less than 3 MD. I agree thought that your amount of flashbackable spells increased after board in nearly every matchups (that’s why i played a second SCM in my side in Paris).
For my new list which I will play at the BoM I cut all the Vendilion Cliques from my Mainboard, and the Karakas too. So 3 Snapcaster Mage is the minimum, I'd love to play a 4th if I had the slots to do so. As I will be saying in my new Madness-Article Snapcaster Mage is just too good in every single MU, while Clique is phenomenal in some, and overly awkard in others.
Is your SB 3rd counterspell really better than a 4th REB or a random other cards (a Needle or the 4th CB for example) ? Pithin Needle has always been very good to me and has applications against a ton of matchups (it’s great against two major decks DnT and SnT while being good against Merfolk, Goblins and some fringe strategies). CB is so good against a lot of matchups, i don’t understand why people don’t max up to 4 between MD and SB…
The third Counterspell proved to be very important, and it is yet better than REB and Balance, because it counters a spell. That's it. The spell doesn't need to be red, and you don't need to have a top + the right card to counter. Conditionless counters are good :D
Have you ever lose to a Wasteland on your Volcanic Island with REB in hand and a Delver attacking you ? I did and that’s why i think i will never play without a basic mountain in the 75. I’m unsure if it belongs in the MD or the SB though. What are your thoughts on that ?
I don't board in my REBs against heavy Wasteland decks when I don't have a Mountain. That's why I've never lost to Wasteland on my Volcanic yet.
Playing Disenchant over Wear/Tear, are you sure that the fact that Disenchant is easier to cast really balance the cheaper cost of the Tear and the possible 2 for 1 of Wear/Tear ?
No I am not, but yet again it's consistency (in casting) over versatiliy and power.
Against BUG, i agree that it’s a good strategy to blank your opponent sideboard plan by removing your enchantement (that’s what i used to do against Shardless BUG) but i feel like Rest in Peace is so good against those versions with 4 Tarmo, 4 Shaman, 2 Tombstalker that it’s worth siding it. With 3 SCM, i understand why you don’t want to side in it though.
They will decrease their amount of GY-dependant creatures. And Snapcaster Mages have nothing to do with the RIPs as I bring RIPS vs RUG too, even if I had 4 Snappies.
Speaking of this awkward interactions. Do you always keep all your SCM in every matchups (like RUG) where you side in RiP ? if yes, why ?
Snappy is bonkers. And if we resolve a RIP with a trigger, we don't need Snappy any more, and he can still ambush-viper a Mongo.
Against Esperblade, why don’t you side the 3rd Entreat ? maybe over a Spell Pierce or EE.
Overloading on conditional cards that happen to be a Miracle spell isn't a good plan against a Discard/counterspell - disrupte Deck like Esperblade.
RUG and Patriot Delver are not exactly the same deck but present a lot of similarities. I wonder how did you came up with the decision of adding 1 CS against Patriot but on the other hand removing one against RUG. Same question with Entreat, you remove one against Patriote but keep both against RUG (which has more disruption with Stiffle). Spell Pierce is not the best card against those decks but it’s still exceptionally good in the first critical turns, i’m not convinced about the 2nd and particularly the 3rd CS over Spell Pierce against Patriote for example.
Patriot is slower and tends to cast later game spells like TNN, this is where Counterspell is good, and they don't really attack our mana. RUG does that. So Counterspell isn't that easy to cast. Entreat has to stay in vs RUG cause I need win-cons. And Entreat happens to be a win-con that also acts like a sweeper.
Only 1 RiP against Storm ? i know it’s bad to see the second one but it still shuts their main win conditions.
RIP only shuts their win-con if we are pressuring them. And if we do so we are in good shape anyways, cause Miracles always struggle to put pressure on RUG.
Against Show and Tell, i would definitely keep 2 Entreat before bringing craps like EE. Having them in your hand can be bad but being a 3cc and a win condition in instant speed is very relevant.
EE is no crap. Have fun dealing with Pithing Needle and Defense Grip.
Miracles being the best deck, it’s definitely a Tier 1 deck so can you introduce your sideboard plan in the mirror match please ? the same against Elf (which is also a Tier 1 deck imo) would be much impreciate.
Look, I thought I would be the best mirror-player in the whole world (please don't take that any serious) - then I lost 3 games at the GP to mirror, all 0-2. Since then I had to rethink my strategy. But the basic plan is -4 Swords -4 Terminus -2 Entreat + Counters/Creatures/Win-Cons that stick. My teammate Marc Vogt will write an article about Boarding with Miracles, Ill link it here as soon as it's out there. Even though he doesn't play the only good list (mine :D) he knows what he is doing.
Thank you very much.
My pleasure.
Greetings
EDIT: See you at the Bazaar, Shaka?
Btw I upgraded my altered Miracles, check it out via my Signature.
How come you take out Entreats in the mirror match? Short of Engineered Explosives they can't really deal with it (assuming they pull Terminus) and it dodges Counterbalance very well. You can just make Land Drops until you Entreat for 3/4 Angels with a Counterspell, Counterbalance, and Force up. (Which is how I assume you expect to land any of your other threats) and being able to do it end of turn allows you to untap and fight over a Jace the following turn if it suits you better.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Entreat is a horrible card in the mirror. And I know that many people disagree with this statement, even ones whose opinion on Miracles I value highly. But let me tell you why it's not good enough.
The problem with Entreat is the fact that its a Miracle spell. And those are not what you want to see when playing a Mirror-match. You want consistency in your draws, and your cantrips. You don't want to forgo Ponders full potential just because you have to float that Entreat up there for the next two turns. Entreat needs to be cast right into Pierce/Fluster to be relevant early on - and later it's just another "Win-Con" - which is good for some builds and playstyles. But I'd rather have an additional counterspell, rather than an additional win-con. I'd rather have something that allows me to play Draw-Go even better, than something that sometimes forces me into making a bold and risky move. Yes, a lategame protected Entreat is good, but I'd rather use the slots for cards that are always good in the mirror.
I am well aware that this explanation was neither well structured nor very convincing, but I hope you got something out of it. If not - let me know and I will answer tomorrow or somewhen, when I can think straight again.
Greetings
I definitely respect Einherjer's opinion and truthfully Entreat can often be clunky. If you've played the mirror much, then you know how good the Counterbalance/Top lock is. You probably also know that despite being "better" than your opponent, their aggressive draws (being able to cast and protect an early CB) and blind flips can sometimes put the game out of reach regardless of your ability to outplay them. Obviously it is possible with tight play, or if your opponent messes up too badly, for you to break out of a Counterbalance lock, especially early in the lock. However, as the game progresses and as they perhaps pick up a Jace or multiple CBs, it becomes increasingly difficult to improve your situation. The reason that I like Entreat in the mirror is that it steals games when you are locked out with Top + Counterbalance and can assassinate Jace while completely dodging REB.
Thank you very much for your answer ! I was starting to be afraid that you were one those writter who write their article, take the money, leave and never answer like so much writters in starcity but you are not ! and thank you for that also.
Now we can talk ! :)
About REB : i understand and respect your philosophy of stability over power but i think i'm still going to take the risk to play 2 REB main deck because it gives me the best chance to win the last rounds and the top 8 imo. Having 2 byes certainly helps me with this decision.
About SFM/Batterskull : Sure it's very good but i really feel like it takes to much slots in the sideboard.
About V. Clique : i guess we won't be able to agree on that one. I'm loving SCM more and more and i'm still fond of the information given by Cliques, the possibilty to put miracles back in the deck and the fact that there is no condition to cast it on Turn 3 (we don't always have one mana card to cast SCM on Turn 3).
"I don't board in my REBs against heavy Wasteland decks when I don't have a Mountain. That's why I've never lost to Wasteland on my Volcanic yet. "
Sure it's a good way not to be blown out by Wasteland ;) but in your article you said you side in some REB in against Deathblade and UWR Patriote which happen to play Wastelands so i guess you have been a little lucky not to have faced this problem ;) . More seriously, the real question is : is it worth having a Mountain or not ? As REB is so good against RUG, Patriote, Deathblade and Esperblade and as i want to be able to cast all 3 or 4 of them, i think the answer is yes ! (it also let you play Wear/Tear over Disenchant).
About RIP and SCM : Against RUG i guess you are right since a resolved RIP a nearly game and then an Ambush Viper is not that bad. What about other decks you side in RIP ? Against Storm, Reanimator and Dredge, it's totally reasonable to keep SCM but against something like Lands, do you still keep SCM ? Are you sure it's a good idea not to side in RiP against Jund ? Punishing Fire is a bit scary and blanking Shaman and Tarmogoyf doesn't hurt.
About Counsterspell/Entreat/Spell Pierce against RUG and Patriote : i understand your reasoning and you are probably right but since "Entreat has to stay in vs RUG cause I need win-cons" , why doesn't it also stay as well against Patriote where you also need win conditions.
About EE against S&T : I don't think many players side in Needle (some of them even play Top MD too) or Defense Grid (sure it's scary, but every good Show and Tell players i spoke with told me that Defense Grid was actually bad). Furthermore, it's pretty risky to rely on EE to destroy the potential Defense Grid. What are you going to do ? Cast EE on 2 on Turn 2 risking to get comboed out on Turn 2 or 3 ? Waiting for Defense Grid to resolve ? Basically, you will need 4 manas to destroy it leaving you without mana for the decisive turn (good player will play Defense the turn before they go off) so unless it's very late game, it won't be anygood either. As much i respect and like Disenchant effect in this matchup, EE really seems bad.
In the mirror : I like your point of view in the matchup. Entreat is definitly not the most important card in the matchup but it can still win you games, especially ones where you are behind and/or locked by CounterTop as Drza said so i would keep one or 2, but def. not 3. Win cons that stick ... what are you refering about ? Keranos ? :o :) . Do you side in your 2 EE and Disenchant ? How good have Flusterstorms been in the matchup for you ?
Thank you again :)
Versus 12-Post, Extract and Bribery are still cards, right? I mean, if the Emrakul is the only thing you're worried about...
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