Problem with bitterblossom is that it will be used only against the miracles matchup and nothing else. Lousy side board card unless you play miracles 4 out of 6 matches or somethingOriginally Posted by Valtrix
Idk.... I like to leave Bob and/or TNN in against miracles. And what about V Clique. Anyway, tbh, it just sounds like you should practice vs Miracles more, maybe challenge some of your theories on the matchup (such as Decay not being good; like, dafuq?)
Bitterblossom? Damn I love the sick cards this deck can play!
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Oh sorry, I was thinking of the wrong weirding, my bad. I should have definitely looked into that more.
I mean, yes Bitterblossom is narrow, but it's also immensely powerful in that matchups. If you're in a large(ish) tournament, then you should probably prepare to deal with Miracles. Devoting 1-2 slots just for one matchup, that you'll almost certainly have to play against, does not seem out of line at all. Part of why Miracles is so strong is that there are very few hate cards for it (in the sense of, "You probably should answer this or you likely just lose"). I think Bitterblossom is actually one of those few cards (as long as you get it in a reasonable time frame).
It's not much different than packing Tormods Crypt for Dredge (yes, there are other matches where it is relevant, but it is there for Dredge).
I like BB; it's worth a single slot, imo
Any thoughts on the miracles list packing SFM and Batterskull in the side?
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You can't board against the SFM package in the side unfortunately. It's why Miracles even runs it, because the ways to deal with all suck against that deck. (Nice creature removal, you want to get this Snapcaster? Clique?). Even if you abrupt decay SFM (which is awkward), it's very likely they will just drag the game until they can play 5 lands and hard cast it. I would just not plan for it and hope they don't have it. Fortunately for you guys, it's not a super popular SB option for players. (maybe 1/3 I'd say).
It's pretty clever, despite Decay's awkwardness I think we still are better equipped for it than, say, UWR. Lilly and Grip help.
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Lets have esper chim in with his matchup against Joe and his sideboarding. I know he took out decays
You probably take 1 goyf out to lessen the graveyard dependency
Why would miracles bring that in. It's not like miracles even need to sideboard against us. If anything max two cards.
As others have said - Dredge laughs at a single DRS. It can easily be played through by overwhelming the GY. If you don't respect that deck it will crush you.
I used to play RUG, then UWr, and now I'm going to play BUG because of the boogeyman (miracles). I thought with Abrupt Decay the match up would be a lot better than what you guys are saying it is, because I haven't tested it extensively.
Do we really not want the full suite of 4 abrupt decay / Do they really side out counterbalance against us? I usually cut all my dazes because the good players play around it anyways and they have like 7 basics. As others have said I have mixed feelings about the discard - what is the proper number of discard spells to leave in post board? But I do know I don't want to shave ANY of the creatures...we need every last threat. I'm not even sure I want to cut the disfigures because they have Venser (BIG problem CMC > 3) and Clique. I was thinking
-4 Daze, -2 Discard (Hymn or Seize?)
+1 Envelop, +1 Abrupt Decay (only running 3 main), +1 Sylvan, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Golgari Charm
I think the Miracles matchup is one of the real skill-testers in the format, just like Maverick vs. Thresh used to be. Both sides say it's favorable and it's very responsive to experience.
People do side out Counterbalance and don't bring in Rest in Peace - first I heard about that plan was from Einherjer's article after GP Paris, and I've seen/heard about oarsman trying it out too. I think that plan is awful. Sure, we have Decays, but Counterbalance is still devastating against us, and RiP is fine. The idea of stranding cards in TA's hand is just not worth losing trump cards, and besides, Miracles plays creatures that Decay can kill.
Don't side out Hymn. Even though the matchup isn't really about card advantage, resolving Hymn hurts their ability to function pretty much no matter what you hit. I'm not sold on boarding in Charm. It's good if they have several Verdicts, but if they do that then you shouldn't keep all 4 Decays. The only time I definitely would bring it in is if you know they have both Counterbalance and several Rest in Peace.
Bring in Clique if you have it, Winter Orb if you have it, etc.
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I think Bitterblossom definitely sounds good. I'm going to have to test it.
IMO, you want at least 1 Clique of your own against Miracles. It diversifies your threats away from the graveyard so that you aren't hit as hard by Rest in Peace, and it's great to boot. Krosan Grip is also excellent because it can actually destroy Top as well as being a 5th uncounterable way to destroy RiP and Counterbalance. Most builds of Miracles/Miracles players seem to board at least 1 CB out, and I've seen several leave 1 (but only one) in if they were light on SB options. Beyond Grip and Clique (and maybe Sylvan) how you board is determined by where you want to be in the matchup. I don't like Jace over Weirding a ton because Zur's Weirding shuts off their truly explosive plays like Entreat and Terminus at their Miracle costs, doesn't require UU, and forces you to play more slowly when you're definitely the beatdown. Weirding is essentially one-sided by the time it comes down because they should be at a low enough life total that they'll only get a few chances to say 'no' before they die to your board, and Bob and Sylvan enable you to just see so many cards that you should be able to make a threat stick. I like keeping at least 3 AD in because they aren't boarding SCM or Clique out against you even if they bring CB out, and they're definitely bringing RiP in, so you want the removal. Liliana is insane in the Miracles matchup, but your other discard is going to be dependent on exactly the lines you want available. I go back and forth on the Hymn in general, but it's very good against Miracles because it can hit lands, though most Miracles players are smart enough to float their most valuable cards with Top no matter what discard you're running. Thoughtseize is obviously especially strong against the Stoneforge package.
Don't troll. You are underestimating the power of miracles. Any competent player can beat us. Maybe those who claim to be able to beat miracles are playing against scrubs.
Are you being serious?
Oh dear god, and I thought you were just a horrible player... Turns out nobody should be taking you serious in any way... Leave, just leave and don't disturb the discussion any further please.
@BUG-Thread. Sorry for interrupting here, but this was just hillarious. As an compensation I'd gladly help you out if I can. You are still discussing the Miracles-MU? Are there any points you want me to help you with, in special?
Greetings
Why would they not bring in rip. It stops 8 of our cards. Two cards from their board stops 8 of ours.
Go on camera at scg and play against a top table miracles. Not some scrub at the low end. Use ta and play against urself and tell us the results
Yes. And miracles is not easy. We all know that. Every deck has a weakness. Yet this deck doesnt stop a competent pilot
I don't have an exact number of the times I have played against Miracles. It is easily 10+ matches and I have only lost once and drew once. So that would be something like 8-1-1 at least. The match I drew I would have won but we timed out. I don't think the match is as hard as you are painting it to be. With Decays, Hymns, and Charms alone it is pretty easy. Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Zur's Weirding all give us a lot of game as well. Their cards may be more powerful when played correctly, but we have lots of ways to trip them up when it comes to sequencing. Forcing, Thoughtseizing, Needling/Roding Tops is insane against them. It really shuts down their deck. Furthermore if you can land something like Weirding or Winter Orb they end up being in a world of hurt.
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I think phazonmutant nailed the topic pretty well when he said that it's a very skill intense match, and both sides claim it to be positive. But what does positive mean? I am well aware that I called this MU both positive and "easy" - yet this doesn't mean that Miracles beats TeamAmerica for 60 or more percent. This is just absurd. I think this MU is generally a 50/50 one, with the potential of being 55/45 and 45/55 - depending on how well the lists are prepared. Now let's look at a few deciding points:
1) Creatures #13+#14: Besides the obvious 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Delver of Secrets and 4 Tarmogoyf it is essential to know which creature you are going to play next, you all know this. Even though I always advise newer players to start at Dan Signorinis list I think that this very list is a little too old as of now. In a format that comes down to Miracles vs Team America at the top-tables Tombstalker isn't going to cut it. This creature is just utterly horrible against Miracles, and while I acknowledge its purposes in other MU this is where I'd avdise you to make your first switch, which should help you beat Miracles. I don't have enough experience with modern Team America (it's been a while since I played this) to tell you which creature is best - but both of the top-tier options look intriguing: Nemesis and Confidant.
2) Silverbullets in the mainboard: If you are concerned with the Miracles-MU it might be a good idea to rethink your choice of flexible slots. It's not like you are working with alot of them - but most lists still have them. Liliana of the Veil does not single handedly beat Miracles, but is an important part of winning. Try to keep her alive as long as possible, don't just sac her when she is at 6 counters. But also know when you have to stop as soon as you draw important disruption a'la Force of Will in the lategame, Vendilion Clique, Envelop or what have you. Other than that the good old Sylvan Library is a beast in this MU. Don't be afraid to draw as many cards as you want.
3) Playstyle: I have mentioned this already, but playing against Miracles is tough if you have no experience with the deck itself. At first you have to deploy one threat at a time, yet you should try and analyze the board-state as often as you can. "Will this one threat carry me to victory? Do I have back-up creatures/Cantrips to find it?" - basically it's correct to never counter a removal - spell and rather spend your ressources on finding more of them and countering Jace/Angels/Top. But should you have a hand that has just an overload of countermagic and no additional creatures/Cantrips - feel free to forgo this dogma and throw your disruption on those Swords/Terminus/Snappies. Yet again - this is the exception - but I see many people miss this.
4) Sideboarding: There are many ways of sideboarding, Miracles can either board out Balance and not board in RIP like I did/do - others can throw in all those enchantments they have, while others do a middle-stuff. You simply cannot know. That's why you should keep the full set of Abrupt Decay for the 2nd game. If you see Balance+RIP and you expect stuff like Blood Moon or stuff like Foundry, bring in those Charms.
Dazes are no good, don't have them in your deck any more.
Most of the time it's a good idea to board out the full set of Dazes and Wastelands. This gives you 8 slots to bring in everything your sideboard has. Screwing Miracles happens rarely - you need like Hymn, Waste and Needle for Top... so yeah - not gonna happen. Focus on trading effectively - and punish your opponent for playing too many lands (I don't do that anymore anyways hehe) and too less buisness.
5) Evil stuff: I know most of you know this cards already, but I'll write you down a list of cards you might want to consider when battling Miracles:
Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Maelstrom Pulse, Envelop, Dimir Charm, Counterspell, Golgari Charm, Winter Orb, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, Krosan Grip, Creeping Tar Pit, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize and some more I can't think of now..
As said above, this MU depends greatly on how each player is prepared, and how well he/she is comfortable playing this game, without any experience battling Miracles BUG Delver will be crushed 1000:0 - this might be the reason why some complain about the MU being unwinable. But as soon as you know what to do it's not that bad anymore. But I doubt any side can get the MU above 55% against a competent player with a reasonably well built list.
I hope I could be of help. I think I covered everything you were discussing about... if I forgot anything and you'd like to hear my opinion on it - let me know.
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As a Miracles player, I would consider any Delver deck to be a pretty favorable matchup. That said though, Delver didn't get where it is by having any atrocious matchups. Any Delver deck is well equipped to win games on the back of mana denial and aggression coupled with permission. And with its access to Bob, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library, BUG Delver is better equipped to fight Miracles than RUG and UWR.
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