Serious reply: I haven't had any noticeable troubles. Sure, every once and a while you'll have to throw something back for not having green, but it's not something that's super common. Do your own testing, but between Tom and I we've tested the deck quite a bit and the win % is extremely high in a well-developed meta.Originally Posted by Phelix
Feel free to experiment with changes, but I'll tell you that we both LOVE this 75. It's going to be a tear-jerker to change anything, but we'll see where the meta goes.
Humorous reply: If the mana is a concern you could try playing that gamble combo-version that runs 11 relevant lands + mox. That deck can't get colored mana to save its life. :3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X5ShczaAqk
I know, Felix. I'm Zack. We've chat on facebook a bit. ;)
hi,
i have been reading this thread for a while now, it seem that many ppl here hate the RG combo lands. i dun know why.
the RG combo lands went 1st place by kurt spessis. and the artifact lands til now never made it to first place in any major tournament.
some say the RG combo lands is a copy or a lesser version of the "real" lands.
the original land deck from long ago (2006) i found it here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...and-dec?page=2
but, why the hate for RG combo lands?
I wouldn't say there's any hate for that particular build; it's fast, powerful and has a strong mana denial/creature kill plan. It's also not nearly as reliant on the graveyard compared to Intuition lists thanks to multiple Depths, Crop Rotations and to some extent Gamble. It's game 1 combo matchup is much, much better than 4C Lands.
I personally don't like it too much because it's much more linear and lacks the versatility of the 4C list. RG wins with Marit Lage and occasionally PFire. It has no maindeck answers to things like Counterbalance, Mongoose, TNN, EBridge, etc. outside of its Glacial Chasm. 4C has its own EBridge for defense, as well as recurring EE to stop pretty much every permanent in Legacy (and occasionally serving as its own wincon). RG I feel is also somewhat more draw dependent; its dredges are weaker because you don't want to mill your tutors and there's no Tolaria West to recur.
In other news, I'm pretty excited to test out Dack Fayden in 4C. He's probably super durdly and doesn't accomplish much though lol. If only Kiora wasn't 4 mana and/or 2 loyalty. I remember someone trying out a couple of Mind Sculptors a while back. How did that go?
hi tyrio,
thank you for your clear explanation. i understand the difference between these 2 decks now.
will try it out.
Tyrio, I completely agree with your vision of 4-C Intuition vs. RG Lands.
About PWs and Dack Fayden, well planeswalkers are planeswalkers.. You can't protect them as efficiently as your life total. I mean, I don't care being hit by a 4/5 Tarmogoyf for 2-3 turns before stabilizing. Planeswalkers require immediate solutions if you want them to stay alive. Moreover dredging them plainly sucks, like Exploration.
Dak Fayden +1 is good for finding cards and filling your graveyard you can't deny that. But will you use the ability more that twice before Dak is destroyed? Counterspells, Burn, Creatures, Decay, it dies to a lot of things because it doesn't protect itself.. If you want to play this just for the looting, you might want to consider Faithless Looting instead.
-2 is irrelevant. -6 is pretty much irrelevant too, you can't take control of opposing Jaces because your P-Fire targets the player and then is redirected to Jace. So what's left? Opposing Tarmogoyf and germ tokens? You can still imagine this scenario where your bridge sticks for more than 2 turns, or where you have 3 Maze + the P-Fire engine going but else, how do you plan to hit 6 counters vs. creatures decks?
Although it's probably ment in a humorous way, its not constructive to be denigrating about the RG version. On the contrary, it's great that a landsdeck variant does so well (it pops up quite some times on mtgtop8). It's a young deck, and will probably evolve a lot, and many changes are probably due to come.Humorous reply: If the mana is a concern you could try playing that gamble combo-version that runs 11 relevant lands + mox. That deck can't get colored mana to save its life. :3
Congratulations on your top 16, thats a great result!
That was probably me; I've been playing 3 JtMS in Lands for over a year, playing 4C E-Tutor Intuition lands with no Punishing Fires. I have two SCG top32s with it and have done passably a slew of local events. Most recently I went 4-4 or 5-4 in Charlotte last month and came in 9th at a big monthly Legacy event locally because I can't do math abd calculate tiebreakers. I absolutely love it, the synergies with the mana denial/Tabernacle and the bounce/fate seal modes are the primary motivators, but there's so much overlap that I can't believe I'm the only one doing it. He can be turn-2'd with Mox Diamond or Exploration, which is so broken you feel like you're playing Vintage. You can Brainstorm to dig for Exploration or postboard combo hate or turbo-dredge or draw the card you Academy Ruins-d this turn, you can protect him with Maze/Bridge, he gives additional outs to cheated in fatties, delays DRS activations sometimes, and acts as a reliable secondary win condition. Pretty much against DRS decks and like small critter Tribal I'd rather have PFires, but in every other matchup Jace is fucking awesome. I've written up a couple tournament reports but I haven't posted them here because they were mostly for events I didn't do well at and I wrote the reports to reflect on that, but if there's more interest in the Jace build I can share my experiences.
I wouldn't say there's "hate" for it. I just don't see the point and I don't think it's that great. It's fine that people want to play it, and if it does well then that shuts me up, but it runs 11 relevant lands + mox so it's super vulnerable to wasteland and mana screw. It's faster, but wouldn't you rather just play storm if you're going that route? I guess it does have a mana-denial plan and it does have some creature removal, so it's different.
Idk, I mostly make fun of it as a joke, people can play whatever decks they want. As long as they're not playing show and tell c;
As for the decklist, I think the next change is going to be cutting Chalice of the Void down to 1 or 2 copies in the sideboard. RUG Delver is falling out of the meta a bit and it's not as good as it used to be. I think Phyrexian Revoker to name DRS is probably going to be a better choice for the near future, maybe a third Grip, but I haven't decided. Tom played with Revoker tonight and went 4-0.
I not sure where are you going with your reply. The last Lands deck that won an SCG event was R/G Lands and there has been about a 50/50 distribution between R/G and 4c when it comes to high finishes. I also don't understand what you mean by relevant lands, are you talking about green mana producing lands? there are 14 plus Mox which is one more higher then your top 16 list? or just mana producing lands because that's about even too?
R/G has pretty much the same mana denial package as 4c and a similar creature suppression package as 4c with the biggest difference being the two EE that are in the 4c List becomes an additional Maze and Punishing Fire in the R/G Build. Some 4c lists run E.Bridge or O.Stone but that's more of an exception then a rule.
The real difference between the two decks is that one is a proactive (R/G) and liner and one is reactive (4c) and flexible. Deck option thus becomes a personal choice.
I see RUG delver picking up steam, but I think that's a pretty easy matchup in general. I would be more afraid of the elves matchup without the COTV. Don't forget that Revoker is a house against a lot decks, its got a lot of applications against combo, Miracles and Jund. its pretty flexible.
The fastness of the RG-version isn't limited to the combo alone. Gamble and croprotation get a quick wastelock of Pfire/Grove online as well, and often that's a better strategy than just go for Stage/Depths, so I would definitely not label this deck as all-in combo.
If there's something I miss in this version, it's definitely Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins (and I wonder if it couldn't be integrated as well).
Jamming a blue source, Academy Ruins and EE into RG was discussed a few pages back. Without Tolaria West or Intuition it just takes too long to assemble the package. You'd have to Gamble for EE and hope to not discard it or dredge it away. Fortunately PFire handles 90% of Legacy's creature base and the creatures that are immune to punishment are vulnerable to Wastelocks.
Been playing the R/G version for a bit now, and I find it quite fun. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to read through every page of this thread, so hopefully this hasn't been asked before, but is there any reason any version of Lands doesn't play Living Wish?
I know, I've read it, but I don't think the three pieces are useless on their own. EE on its own works great when drawn, and a tropical Island is at least a fourth fetchable forest. Gamble gets Pfire, but its nice to have an EE-option for emergency cornercases. I'm also testing with one sylvan library main and one in the side, which can help me find what I need.
It might be too slow and take up too many slots, but I really want to test this in the next tournament.
One other question to the other R/G Lands players. What alternate win con would you look for if all your depths were exiled? I know grove + p.fire is one, but it's so slow and relies on graveyard, which might not exist due to a RiP (which might be how the depths were exiled also). Thanks.
"Farmville" does.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...gppar14/day2#7
Personally, I play 4c lands and earlier this evening at a casual legacy event (7 players, not sanctioned, just a get-together) and I won through surgical on depths, pfire, and EE. Won that game by mazing three goyfs, two delvers and a tombstalker (thespian's stage OP) and recurring mox diamond to deck the guy. I've always loved lands because it's probably the single deck in legacy with the MOST inevitability of anything. I've won games by concession that I otherwise couldn't have won via-ghost-quartering all of my opponents mana sources. I imagine in RG lands, if you have quarters then quartering out all of your opponents lands to draw a concession is your best out if they've taken all your other wincons. If the graveyard is a no-go, Don't you guys splash blue for creeping tarpit or a raging ravine or some other man-land? If not, then the list really shouldn't be called lands at all.
Against extraction I try to avoid having a combopiece going to the graveyard, by holding on to it, or having one in play with a crop rotation in hand to protect it from wasteland. Most decks running extraction are non-white and don't have StP, so if you can make the token they usually can't deal with it (apart from a sideboarded submerge).
When playing against extraction and a comboland is wastelanded, you can croprotate for another copy. Just don't sack the targeted comboland to croprotation (which would normally be a good play) but another land, because in response they can extract the land sacced to croprotation. Dredging is safer too with croprotation in hand. If DD or Stage is dredged, and your opponent plays extraction, you can snatch one vital copy out of the library into play in response.
I recently did loose a game because both DD and Pfire were extracted. But it was my own, stupid fault, because I had my BUG opponent totally wastelocked with Tabernacle in play, and took the chances of gambling for something. I wrongly assumed he did not have extraction in hand, because he didn't extract loam or wasteland, which would have broken his lock. I randomly discarted DD, and he extracted it. So for this scenario my own judgement is to blame, and I generally think you can protect your combopieces from extraction.
But without DD and Pfire you can't win anymore. That's the downside of this version, but ofcourse having the chance of comboing fast and regular is a considerable upside.
Last edited by tewatate; 04-25-2014 at 09:54 AM.
Hello sourcers, I played in SCG Detroit over Easter weekend, and Lands was my weapon of choice.
For reference I played this list.
3 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
3 Tolaria West
My sideboard was
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
And looking at my matchups in hindsight, I should have had a much easier time than I did, but I think a bit of it had to do with my unfamiliarity with playing against the junk maverick style decks alongside the actual miracles matchup.
My rounds went as follows:
Rd 1 - Junk 1-0
1-0
Rd 2 - Bug Delver 1-2
1-1
Rd 3 - Burn 2-1
2-1
Rd 4 - Dredge 2-0
3-1
Rd 5 - Miracles 0-2
3-2
Rd 6 - Esper Blade 2-0
4-2
Rd 7 - Affinity 2-0
5-2
Rd 8 - Elves id
5-2-1
Props
-Being a part of the imaginary team Tabernacle for a day =P
-Beating Affinity on the draw when his first turn puts 7 permanents in play...
-Beating Burn in 4 turns game 1 and 3 turns game 3.
-Not playing against any combo decks.
Slops
-Getting crushed by miracles without finding any actual way to interact with him.
-Ichorid casting Narcomoebias as well as golgari thugs. #nonowasteland
Rd 1 was very uneventful. My opponent's all day were very nice and this round was no different. He was unfamiliar with my deck like many of the people that I played today. Game 1 went a very long time and I just didn't finish the game until he scooped with 15 minutes left. Game 2 revolved around me finding three ports and a tabernacle, and him having infinite lands to find. He cast an elspeth through my triple ports. This game ended with me sacc’ing all of my lands to Zuran Orb and surviving at 2 life at the end of turns.
Rd 2 my opponent played a total of 3 delvers all of which flipped, and a Tarmogoyf. He won this game pretty handily. Game 2 I was able to lock the game up with a end of turn crop rotation into Marit Lage. Game 3 I had the set up for an end of turn crop rotation into Marit Lage, but he plays thoughtseize the turn before I could set up the kill as I needed to crop rotation as well as keep the thespian stage on glacial chasm until after his attack step.
Rd 3 was an interesting one. Turn 1 Bolt go. I was in for a treat. My hand was fairly slow, but had some good stuff. Start with a turn 1 loam on the thespian stage that I discard to mox diamond. The next turn I draw an exploration. And at this point when he untaps he has 1 card in hand and I am at 4 life. I do not dredge and I draw into crop rotation and I let him untap and am planning to just crop rotation into a glacial chasm if he does anything. He just passes back and his hand has to have either flameblast or double burn spell so I decide to go for it, because he should have cast it by now if he had it… he did not.
Game 2 he blows me out of the water with sulfuric vortex. Apparently that does more than just deal 2 damage at every upkeep =D
Game 3 I am on the play with the stone cold nuts. Exploration into Thespian’s stage. Next turn port and a tropical island. End of turn I crop rotation into Marit Lage and end the game. He did get me down to less than ten life this game.
Rd 4 I got to meet the boogeyman. Ichorids were a plenty. He had the play and my hand had access to a turn 2 bog, which was pretty good, if his game plan was not to just cast Narcomoebias on 2. After the third hit play I needed to find a way to deal with them. I bogged 3 bridges and then just had to find explosives. I was not able to do that, but I did find 2 mazes and a stage.
Game 2 he starts with Leyline in play and I just casually end of turn 3 make Marit Lage and that is all she wrote.
Rd 5 Playing against Dan Musser. He was a very nice guy and I wish our games were a little bit more exciting. I was not very tested in this matchup, and it definitely showed. I believe that my sideboarding was probably wrong, but you live and learn. The games were very uneventful as he just kept playing basics, and eventually played counterbalance plus Jace and locked me out.
Game 2 he forced my turn 1 chalice at 1 and then it began to look like game 1. He did rest in peace, but I had the Explosives to kill it plus a counterbalance. If only he didn’t just replace them. I was not able to find my krosan grips, or even punishing fire to try and pressure Jace.
Rd 6 I was playing against EsperBlade, but I was almost positive that when I saw him play earlier in the day he was on the Esper Deathblade. So I made a very bold turn 1 exploration into ghost quarter your Underground Sea. He finds himself an Island. I make the same play next turn thinking he is a very greedy four-color player. He finds another island. Of course the next turn I am able to keep up port to protect myself from him getting too ahead on mana. I just decide to lock myself into the ghost quarter plan and find out he has 4 basics. Once he runs out of basics he has resolved a true name as well as a stoneforge. I find tabernacle and show him my double wasteland and we go to the next game. It is at this point I ask him what he played in Rd3, and he said he played against Deathblade.. Figured it out. Well my opening hand is again a great ghost quarter hand. I get a jump start on my mana while he plays out an Underground Sea. I ghost quarter it and he doesn’t search, which I find very unusual… Unless he had all his basics in his hand, but then he brainstormed in response to my next ghost quarter and then searches. I believe I figured it out. This game he resolves a Jace and tries to dig, but I play around Rest In Peace, and just continue the plan. Ghost quarter gets there.
Rd 7 was a lot of fun. I played on the play against affinity and I had an okay start. I had the Tabernacle as well as a Maze of ith in hand. I am able to make two mazes to take care of the two creatures he has in play. This game ends pretty fast as he attacks with his vault skirge and I do not maze it. End of turn he has no flyers and I make 20 power and finish him. Game 2 on the draw I am a bit worried. He plays 7 permanents and I do not have the E.E. I play grove and pass. The Next turn of course he plays cranial plating and equips. I crop rotation into maze. Then draw an abrupt decay. Find the exploration and begin to cycle through my deck. I find chasm and just have to find a win before he finds a Tezzeret… I have not seen one yet, but if he has it that is the only way he will win this game. Needless to say he does find it, and I am not able to find a punishing fire. My play involves setting up Zuran orb, alongside enough lands to keep the glacial chasm in play alongside enough mana to Thespian’s Stage the Dark Depths to end the game. He ultimates Tezz and I sac all but the required parts needed and go to 3 life. The next turn I attack and play a glacial chasm from my hand. The next turn I allow my chasm to die and attack him for lethal.
Rd 8. My opponent says that if we draw we will both make top 32, and I am bad at math and don’t usually do too many of these tournaments. I just have a bad feeling going into this matchup and my pride gets to me. I decide that only having two losses on the day is how I want to end my day, and we draw, but in hindsight this puts us into 33rd and 34th place. Whatever got 10 bucks profit for my day, and got to play some fun magic. I did play this last round after we turned in our slip and he hoofed me on turn 3. He was on elves. Games two and three I found tabernacle, plus removal and wastelands. I won our imaginary three games, but either way had a blast with the deck.
#teamtabernacle
I tried Sylvan's in my list, and found that in a 4 round tournament, I only used the extra draw once, and it was only to finish a turn quicker in a game I already had locked and won. I found my life total mattering too often to really make use of that feature any other time. I'm thinking of switching to Mirri's Guile. In combination with Loam dredge, it seems like you can get through a lot of cards quickly without accidentally dredging away the spell you need.
Also, as I don't run the blue version, I ran Choke as a 2 of in the sideboard and brought it in often. Quite a blowout when it stuck.
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