[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Mr. Froggy]

There's one thing I really agree with what igri said, Manaless being non-reliant at all on Bridge from Below, is one of the strongest points of the deck.

EDIT: @Hollywood: How's the primer coming along? :)

[Michael Keller]

Unless you've removed critical pieces of the graveyard strategy, I doubt it would weaken the deck very much if at all. I would personally never cut Probe as I find it to be a staple at this point, so I would just play 4 of those sac guys in the Unmask slots if I were trying that route.

My main issue is that those guys make you lean harder on Bridge. At the moment, we are much less reliant on that card than the other dredge variants and I'm not trying to move in the same direction as them. The Probe you removed (if that's what you actually took out, Mr. Keller, I dunno of course) only requires a dredger, which is a mandate anyways. It seems like a card that should never come out.

Just for the record, I will neither confirm nor deny I am actually running the list Final Fortune provided, or something similar in nature - obviously to retain some level of secrecy before such a huge event.

On to your comments:

I understand your logic and what you mean with Unmask, Probe, etc. We are all aware of what these cards do and the utility they provide. Manaless Dredge is more of a combo-oriented deck than its counterpart(s), so naturally Bridge from Below will play a bigger role in that capacity. If we're looking at increasing our odds of powering out a turn-two kill, logically we want to vest into flooding the board or making enough creatures to support Dread Return. The power-level these creatures bring to a deck like this is unprecedented for the reasons I've already mentioned. In all fairness, a turn-two kill is probably going to require Bridge from Below anyhow, so if an opponent is going to nuke their own turn-one creature to exile Bridge - that's fine. Not only have they disrupted their own clock, but you're in perfectly good shape to clockwork out threats and beat them down or get three creatures onto the battlefield that or the following turn to cast Dread Return and win without Bridges.

Bridge from Below has become the backbone of all Dredge variants for years, and rightfully so - it's that good. We're talking about the first two turns where your opponent has limited resources here, so it's not like they're going to be blowing you out unless they have the natural hate card anyhow. I also never said I was cutting Probe from my list, although that remains to be seen. Manaless Dredge is less reliant on Bridge than its counterparts, but that doesn't change the redundant configuration already in place.

Bridge or no Bridge, this deck can make good on its wins without it. However, abusing it is something no other build does better when given the chance - which is exactly what I'm doing.

Unmask is a fine card and does what it does. I personally don't care for it in current Manaless builds because I feel there are better options that impact the board state in your favor as opposed to using it as a glorified Thoughtseize, where Cabal Therapy already shines in that respect. Unmasking yourself is extremely risky and does nothing to impact the immediate board state, but instead opens you up to more to counters that can cause catastrophic damage. And not hitting a dredger in that Unmasked card to continue the chain? Not good.

Again, I'm not looking for the novelty turn-one win; I'm looking for consistent turn-two wins.

@Mr.F: The primer is still chugging along; been busy otherwise but it's coming.

[Thrasher]

The added speed can be nice for sure, but i like how the artifacts can generate tokens with Bridge under cage. It seems promising.

[Michael Keller]

More than just that:

Built-in sacrifice outlet? Check.

Stacks on top of Shadows? Check.

Makes up to four zombies for zero mana? Check.

Cannot be Spell Pierced or Flusterstormed? Check.

Can make multiple tokens under Cage? Check.

Free to cast around Thalia? Check.

Facilitates more tokens when Dread Returned? Check.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The only time Unmask was truly crazy was when I did target myself with it g2 on the play. That was risky, sure. But it was also a free roll since I won g1. If that's not something you would do, then that sounds like a fundamental differences in play style. Just to squash the notion, I used Unmask as free disruption on t2 almost every time. It snagged a lot of good stuff from counterspells to removal to SFM, etc, which is why I like it - it is multidimensional.

I could be talking about nothing here if it's not your actual list. Those sac dudes are cool and all, but unless you have flipped a Bridge, they do nothing. That's another part of my issue with those cards. I simply want cards that always do something in my deck, especially if I have no choice in my mulligans.

And again, I think unless you start removing the graveyard oriented stuff, your deck will run just fine.

[Michael Keller]

The only time Unmask was truly crazy was when I did target myself with it g2 on the play. That was risky, sure. But it was also a free roll since I won g1. If that's not something you would do, then that sounds like a fundamental differences in play style. Just to squash the notion, I used Unmask as free disruption on t2 almost every time. It snagged a lot of good stuff from counterspells to removal to SFM, etc, which is why I like it - it is multidimensional.

I could be talking about nothing here if it's not your actual list. Those sac dudes are cool and all, but unless you have flipped a Bridge, they do nothing. That's another part of my issue with those cards. I simply want cards that always do something in my deck, especially if I have no choice in my mulligans.

And again, I think unless you start removing the graveyard oriented stuff, your deck will run just fine.

Fair enough. Although, with a deck containing fifteen dredgers, you're looking at dredging a mean of 4.6 cards per dredge. With a full grip of seven cards and the potential to dump Bridges with Phantasmagorian or cycling a Street Wraith to hit at least a single Bridge or Phantasmagorian to then dump Bridge(s) by the second turn, you're in pretty good shape to hit at least one.

Then you have a CMC=0 card that has the potential to put up to four zombies in play for free, essentially. Even a CMC=0 card that puts a single 2/2 into play for free is good if it facilitates the immediate kill. A hand sporting multiple X-monsters with Bridges over the course of several turns, your opponent may have to worry about dealing with two to six 2/2s, which at least provides you a way out.

[Mr. Froggy]

I tried out a River Kelpie build that I saw on MTGSalvation, what are your thoughts on that draw creature?

[Michael Keller]

I tried out a River Kelpie build that I saw on MTGSalvation, what are your thoughts on that draw creature?

I love River Kelpie. It's a good card but you really need good trigger management to run that guy.

[Final Fortune]

I think if you're using Unmask aggressively to target yourself game 2 then you should be SBing Lion's Eye Diamond in order to do it better, it's less of a risk if the opponent counters your outlet and discards your entire hand.

I don't see the problem with running 8 robots in order to maximize Bridge from Below triggers, even if you can't generate tokens on your second turn you'll be able to generate tokens eventually and having 8 more creatures in the deck significantly increases your ability to recur Nether Shadows. It's not as if Bridge from Below is an unreliable card, Deathrite Shaman can't remove it and if the opponent plays Rest in Peace having dead cards in your hand is the least of your problems. That leaves Surgical Extraction, and frankly if they are RFGing Bridge from Below based on whether or not you could be holding a robot instead of RFGing your Dredgers, Narcomoebas or Ichorids then you're probably going to win regardless because the deck is already in motion.

Also, no one said you have to play the 8 robots post-board, if they want to SB in Surgical Extraction and sand bag them for Bridge from Below then you could just SB in 8 other relevant cards. I'm not saying the 8 robots are strictly better than any of the alternatives, but they are definitely viable and I think they're preferable to Baubles at the very least.

[slave]

.... I'm not saying the 8 robots are strictly better than any of the alternatives, but they are definitely viable and I think they're preferable to Baubles at the very least.

I agree with this, baubles aren't that great in any build I've seen.

[Michael Keller]

I'll be sure to keep you guys updated tomorrow, no matter what happens.

[ahg113]

I'll be sure to keep you guys updated tomorrow, no matter what happens.

Wishing you much success. 4 Phyrexian Marauder + 4 Shifting Wall < 4 Force of Will. Either way, I'll be looking to invest in the deck to update it's winning potential.

Dredge well, dredge often

[Michael Keller]

Wishing you much success. 4 Phyrexian Marauder + 4 Shifting Wall < 4 Force of Will. Either way, I'll be looking to invest in the deck to update it's winning potential.

Dredge well, dredge often

I am playing Force still.

[TableTopMagic]

I am playing Force still.

You have my attention. Oo

[Final Fortune]

You have my attention. Oo

We still have a SB you know, 4 Force of Will, 4 Disrupting Shoal and 4 Whirlpool Rider transposes the deck list at the cost of the SB, altho' I imagine if we aren't playing Force of Will or Whirlpool Rider game 1 it'll be a much bigger surprise game 2.

[slave]

So what's been cut for the two X-creatures, whilst still keeping blue-count high for Force?

And are you running Laboratory Maniac as a way of +1 Blue?
I gave Labman a whirl on Thursday night at my local, and it performed whilst increasing the blue count. Props to ajfirecracker over on mtgsalv.
(I'm running 17 blue sources in the main)

Whilst I see occasions where Labby may be problematic compared to alternatives like Flayer (e.g. Jitte), it's an extra blue, so maybe this could be relevant in the X-creature version if you're not running Probe? Given that Leyline of Sanctity is more common for me than I ever remember, Labmans' win-con could be quite effective.
Also, given that the increased ability to T2 in this version, are you running 4 Rider?

[Mr. Froggy]

Good luck Hollywood!

[Michael Keller]

1-0 vs. Burn.

[LDX]

Grats, quite sure I'm not the only one expecting many updates today. We're following you!

[TableTopMagic]

We still have a SB you know, 4 Force of Will, 4 Disrupting Shoal and 4 Whirlpool Rider transposes the deck list at the cost of the SB, altho' I imagine if we aren't playing Force of Will or Whirlpool Rider game 1 it'll be a much bigger surprise game 2.

We have a sideboard? Who knew..