Miracle Control

[Dzra]

I think I'll try the following vs Swarm decks (mostly ANT, and assuming I'm on 2x STP main)

- 4 Terminus
- 2 Entreat the Angels

+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Spell Snare
+2 Flusterstorm

RIP is actually very strong against ANT. I've never played Relic against them, but I imagine it's alright but ultimately easier for them to play around. REB is good but you could shave one and the Relic for the 2 RIPs. TES is a totally different beast, so I'd approach it differently. Against TES, REB and RIP are both rather weak, which is convenient because you'll want all of your Terminus against them. ANT can still sometimes Empty the Warrens, but unlike TES, ANT is usually more willing to wait for a lethal Tendrils.

I might poke around with Blood Moon, but having REB/Pyro main has helped greatly vs. various BUG decks. I just don't like the idea of Enlightened Tutor. I feel like putting in E-Tutor (and the appropriate package) cuts down on either the creature suite or permission.

Streamlining is nice. I like Enlightened Tutor, but getting your ETutor target countered is like getting 2-for-1'd.

Should I take CB out vs Jund? It seems like keeping a 2 on top is a bit difficult, even if you bring in RIP. Thoughts?

Realistically, it probably doesn't matter a lot. Against Jund, your primary goal is surviving until you can Entreat. I've liked Counterbalance against Jund before, but I've wanted to (and haven't had time lately) to try testing without it. Counterbalance isn't bad but it doesn't guarantee a lock here; the question is whether it will buy you more time than extra Counterspells/removal.

What is a good startegy against RUG delver?
I'm loosing due fast clock and mana denial(stifle) looks like i can't survive early game. Is there any way to play around stifle!?

The best strategy against RUG and pretty much any Delver deck is to be patient. Against RUG, don't crack fetchlands as you draw them. Wait until you have a bunch of them or some way to protect them (Pierce/REB/Flusterstorm); they are unlikely to have both the Stifles and the mana for them all.

If you are planning on protecting your fetch with a Pierce then make sure that you can pay for their Pierce (meaning you need 4 lands in play). This is also why Flusterstorm is good; they can't counter all the copies with only a single Pierce/Daze of their own (meaning you only need your fetch and a Blue source).

Don't worry about their Delver until you have a few actual lands in play. Your first battle is your mana; worry about their creatures once you can safely play around their Pierces and Dazes.

[janluis1]

[QUOTE=Dzra;811555]RIP is actually very strong against ANT. I've never played Relic against them, but I imagine it's alright but ultimately easier for them to play around. REB is good but you could shave one and the Relic for the 2 RIPs. TES is a totally different beast, so I'd approach it differently. Against TES, REB and RIP are both rather weak, which is convenient because you'll want all of your Terminus against them. ANT can still sometimes Empty the Warrens, but unlike TES, ANT is usually more willing to wait for a lethal Tendrils.

I might poke around with Blood Moon, but having REB/Pyro main has helped greatly vs. various BUG decks. I just don't like the idea of Enlightened Tutor. I feel like putting in E-Tutor (and the appropriate package) cuts down on either the creature suite or permission.

Streamlining is nice. I like Enlightened Tutor, but getting your ETutor target countered is like getting 2-for-1'd.



Realistically, it probably doesn't matter a lot. Against Jund, your primary goal is surviving until you can Entreat. I've liked Counterbalance against Jund before, but I've wanted to (and haven't had time lately) to try testing without it. Counterbalance isn't bad but it doesn't guarantee a lock here; the question is whether it will buy you more time than extra Counterspells/removal.



The best strategy against RUG and pretty much any Delver deck is to be patient. Against RUG, don't crack fetchlands as you draw them. Wait until you have a bunch of them or some way to protect them (Pierce/REB/Flusterstorm); they are unlikely to have both the Stifles and the mana for them all.

If you are planning on protecting your fetch with a Pierce then make sure that you can pay for their Pierce (meaning you need 4 lands in play). This is also why Flusterstorm is good; they can't counter all the copies with only a single Pierce/Daze of their own (meaning you only need your fetch and a Blue source).

Don't worry about their Delver until you have a few actual lands in play. Your first battle is your mana; worry about their creatures once you can safely play around their Pierces and Dazes.

seems legit. I think the only way this deck can loose to delver decks is not surviving the early game. I often lost games due a bunch of flipped delvers or by mana screw

[SevenInTheQueue]

To clarify, I'd still keep in Terminus vs. TES. So STP isn't necssary.

I've thought about RIP for the ANT match-up in the past, so here are my thoughts:

Pro:

+ Great against Past in Flames
+ Gives some value against natural Cabal Ritual lines
+ Having more 2 CMC in the deck, certainly helps with a Counterbalance online.

Cons:

- Requires sorcery speed mana commitment, with a possibility for not affecting the game.
- Reduces the value of Snapcaster Mage, which in turns shoots up dramatically post-board
- (In my experiences) Has been lackluster when compared to Relic
- Assuming RIP would be sided in addition to the previously mentioned cards, my Blue count (aka Force of Will insurance) would remain somewhat the same.


Of course, I'm flexible and willing to hear others out (and ultimately practice with it myself)>

[twndomn]

The best strategy against RUG and pretty much any Delver deck is to be patient. Against RUG, don't crack fetchlands as you draw them. Wait until you have a bunch of them or some way to protect them (Pierce/REB/Flusterstorm); they are unlikely to have both the Stifles and the mana for them all.

Be patient with your Mana Base, don't crack fetch unless you see the opportunity.

However, I would not be patient with the Enchantments. RUG is much, much faster. Trying to play around Daze will only cause your hand full of CB and RiP, stuck. By the time your enchantment or creature sticks, your life total might be too low to make a difference. I would try to jam a CB or a RiP. Even if they all fail, at least that means my StP/Terminus will actually resolve.

[Einherjer]

Ok before I leave for the Pro Tour I felt like answering to a few topics that have been brought up, of which most have been laid to rest without a correct answer.

1) "Solid"-lists.

Zerzab11s and mine list are prime examples of solid. What does this mean? It means that we play cards that aren't really special. We don't pack Blood Moons, Keranos' or Venser. Instead we focus on consistency by adding more cantrips (2-4 Ponder) and upping the count of cards that are always good (Counterspell/Snapcaster Mage and so on) There are obviously better options, you'd rather have Spell Snare than Counterspell in scenario #356 and Venser would be better than Snapcaster Mage in scenario #1032. But does this mean that spells like this are better? Well, in this given scenario, yes. In the general sense? Depending on the way you build your deck - NO. You can for sure build a deck like this, just as the one I used to Top64 GP Strasbourg with. I had all kinds of stuff going on, RIP+Helm, Clique+Karakas, E-Tutor+Blood Moon/Detention Sphere. Would I play this deck again? For nostaglic reasons, yes. For competitive ones? Nope, not again. This is not the way I build my decks now. For me it has worked just too well. You can surely play lists that aren't as solid and still win, but I'd rather build my decks this way. And I am pretty sure that this is the superior way.

I strongly disagree with everything Drza said in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post811297

2) Keranos

Keranos doesn't fit in my philosphy of building this deck, but it's certainly a valid option. He helps in MUs that have been tough, historically, just as Shardless BUG - where he is undenieably good. The problem with the card is the following. You probably have to put it in the slot of your 3rd win-con. For me it'd be the 3rd Entreat in the SB. Now you put Keranos in this slot and move to postboard games, where you have all those 3 bombs in your deck. If you draw Keranos as the first card this card will dominate the game if resolving. It'll be bonkers and you'll probably win, whereas Entreat wouldn't do too much. If you draw Keranos as the 2nd bomb in the game it'll be a reasonable card, it can create advantage here and there and maybe steal the game as long as you're not under much pressure. Entreat is pretty powerful here too, it will probably win the game and help you stabilize. These scenarios are probably even. Now what happens if you draw Keranos as the last bomb when your opponent is threatening to kill you? Well, it'll do nothing and you'll die, regardless of him. This is where Entreat really shines, as it can block+kill or just snipe your opponent with flashy hasty angels.
It once again comes down to how you build your deck. I could def. see the reason why one would play Keranos, but once again, it doesn't fit in my philosphy of building this deck .

3) Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus

I think you guys have worked out the upsides and downsides of both of this cards. In the end it's a meta-choice which one you'd like to take. But more importantly: Do not go below 2 Rest in Peace while still playing graveyard hate. When RUG Delver was big I had 3 RIPs. Ever since GP Paris I have two, which is enough to draw them somewhen. I could the reasons to cut all the graveyard-hate, but cutting one of the RIPs for a Cage/Relic just seems wrong, as you'll probably not draw the one you want, unless you don't have E-Tutor, but this card is bad anyways. So I could def. see a split of 2 RIP 1 Cage/Relic working, but not 1/1, due to RIPs power in pretty much every MU where you want it.

4) Storm

Keeping 2-3 Swords to Plowshares is a good plan, as those + EEs should be enough to not lose to Xantid. Bringing RIP vs ANT is fine, if you have the slots. Don't worry about Snapcaster Mage, just don't. Bringing in RIP vs TES doesn't seem too good, I wouldn't do it. Don't keep Terminus vs Storm.

5) RUG Delver...

We've had this so often already, just search the thread for it - there have been many good posts of various people on this. But basically:
1) Patience
2) Know when to pick your battles.


By the way, an article of mine is up on MTG Madness, somehow it's the one that was scheduled for tomorrow and not the one that was scheduled three weeks ago. Anyways, I talk about Miracles, to some part, so let me know if you liked it or not. But the SB of the list portrayed in the beginning is wrong. It should be:
-1 Flusterstorm
+1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Supreme Veridct
+1 Pithing Needle

I hope it'll be fixed soon.

Anyways, that's it for me for now - I'll be at Pro Tour Atlanta throughout the weekend, so I am not sure if I'll have time to answer any questions/PMs, be patient. :)

Greetings

[twndomn]

Ok before I leave for the Pro Tour I felt like answering to a few topics that have been brought up, of which most have been laid to rest without a correct answer.

1) "Solid"-lists.

Zerzab11s and mine list are prime examples of solid. What does this mean? It means that we play cards that aren't really special. We don't pack Blood Moons, Keranos' or Venser. Instead we focus on consistency by adding more cantrips (2-4 Ponder) and upping the count of cards that are always good (Counterspell/Snapcaster Mage and so on) There are obviously better options, you'd rather have Spell Snare than Counterspell in scenario #356 and Venser would be better than Snapcaster Mage in scenario #1032. But does this mean that spells like this are better? Well, in this given scenario, yes. In the general sense? Depending on the way you build your deck - NO. You can for sure build a deck like this, just as the one I used to Top64 GP Strasbourg with. I had all kinds of stuff going on, RIP+Helm, Clique+Karakas, E-Tutor+Blood Moon/Detention Sphere. Would I play this deck again? For nostaglic reasons, yes. For competitive ones? Nope, not again. This is not the way I build my decks now. For me it has worked just too well. You can surely play lists that aren't as solid and still win, but I'd rather build my decks this way. And I am pretty sure that this is the superior way.

This is relative. Sure, compare to Lossett's list, your card choices do look generic, in the most general sense. Based on my memory, here's what Lossett's mentioned (I'm paraphrasing, he can certainly correct me if I misunderstand his points): he built his list to give himself the best shot in game 1 against combo decks, by sacrificing a little bit against aggro decks, but just enough to get away with it. This is evident by running 2 MD StP. In fact, I feel that's the true meaning of cheater miracles.

If we can see Lossett's list as one side of scale/spectrum, isn't it fair to say Ein's list as the another side, or the opposite end of the spectrum? That's how I would perceive it, not from solid-or-not perspective.

If you scatter all the Miracles builds on a spectrum, including BBD and PV, they'll be all over the place. I dislike people picking a dot/line on the spectrum, call it solid/generic, make little sense to me.

[Dzra]

Based on my memory, here's what Lossett's mentioned (I'm paraphrasing, he can certainly correct me if I misunderstand his points): he built his list to give himself the best shot in game 1 against combo decks, by sacrificing a little bit against aggro decks, but just enough to get away with it. This is evident by running 2 MD StP. In fact, I feel that's the true meaning of cheater miracles.

I'm not sure why/how Joe went about switching to the REB-build, but the way I decided was I took about a half dozen of the recent top 16s and counted the number of matchups where cards like Plow, FoW, Pierce, Snare, and REB are alright (where it does stuff but isn't great), bad (where I'd try to board it out), or actively good (where I'd work hard to board it in). I figured out the numbers for my list from that and have been pretty happy. I did my SB about the same.

[Adryan]

Philipp made some valid points and i agree with almost everything said except the Keranos part.

To me Paulo Vitor is one of the greatest players of all time and i value his opinion very highly.To my knowledge we both were the only players who played 4 Jace on Day 2 at GP Paris. I cutted the 4th Jace afterwards, although PV told me to not do it.

I kind of never looked back, but there were a lot of MU's where i did miss the 4th Jace. Especially against Shardless BUG, where you really need a 4th Jace.

What does that all have to do with Keranos? In my opinion he's kind of a splitcard between the 4th Jace and the 3rd Entreat.
There are a lot of MU's where you'd rather want a 4th "Jace" (f.ex the mirror) than a 3rd Entreat the Angels.

So against decks like Shardless BUG Keranos is not the 3rd Entreat, he's more the 4th Jace. One other minor thing about the 3rd Entreat is that i don't want to put all my eggs in one basket. There are cards like Pernicious Deed, Slaughter Games, Ratchet Bomb etc. where having three Entreat will feel embarassing. I cashed in a lot of tournaments (online& to some part offline) with Keranos in my 75, so give this card a shot, it won me a fair amount of games where Entreat wouldn't.

[Nekrataal]

If we can see Lossett's list as one side of scale/spectrum, isn't it fair to say Ein's list as the another side, or the opposite end of the spectrum? That's how I would perceive it, not from solid-or-not perspective.

For me it is not about builds or sides of a spectrum. It just boils down to your willingness to gamble or phrased positively: your willingness to exploit the flexibility of Miracles. With a solid list like Einherjer's you are less dependent on a specific local metagame. If you're willing to invest more into a gamble because you have or believe to have more insight into the upcoming local meta game you can tune Miracles quite easily to deal better with Combo or creature decks or almost anything and leave other options for the sideboard. This is what lists are doing if they play ReBs main or Lossett's list if he tunes for Combo or my current list that is tuned for my local Combo-less and D&T infested meta. As in any gamble you replace generic choices against more risky ones that are blow-outs in some matchups and dead cards in others in the hope that you'll face more matchups of the first type.

[Sereon]

Hi!

I am a new member here on The Source. I played a small regular weekly 20-ish man tournament last night and thought I'd share my list and results. Did not take notes so I will just comment briefly.

The deck:

2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Meddling Mage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Swan Song


Match 1: RUG Delver

2-0, Both games felt pretty one-sided as I had both Top and plenty removal to go around. There was one critical point in the game where I was going to cast a big entreat my next draw and my opponent could have wasted my second white but opted to go for my volcanic which obviously was a mistake by him, and he realized it only seconds after he made the play.


Match 2: Manaless Dredge

1-2, This was new to me. I haven't been very active in magic for a few months so I have actually never faced manaless before. I certainly knew of the deck but I still feel like more knowledge about its mechanics are needed.

Game one I got totally run over, not even close. I held a pretty slow hand with ponder, a force, clique and some lands.

Game 2 was better, I kept top, 3 lands, meddling mage, brainstorm, terminus. My mage named Dread Return and managed to sneak in 4 damage before I could finish with some angels.

Game 3 was very close, I mulled to 5 without seeing a sideboard card and kept a hand of; top, 2 lands, fow and counterspell. I drew a mage again and named dread return like in G2. However I did not see much more action after that. He started slow-dredgeing and fired of therapies for zombie tokens. I saw tons of cards with top, ponder, brainstorm and jace with fetching in-between but never found RiP. Eventually the zombies and Ichorids were too many. I could terminus but then I would lose my mage and instantly lose to the combo.


Match 3: Lands

2-0, Pretty easy games here. Forced exploration both games. Plowed Marit 3 times and terminused her once in game 1 and Jace sealed the deal. In game 2 the same thing happened except I had meddling mage on P.Fire to not threaten my wincon.


Match 4: BUG Control

2-0, Two fairly tight games. Both of which got decided when I resolved a Jace after a big counter battle. My blasts were huge and needle on tar-pit was MvP!

As you can see from my deck I had off-color fetches and only one volcanic. That will of course change. Will play 2 volcanics, 3 Tarn and 2 Mesa. Just didn't get them be4 the tournament.

[twndomn]

Hi!

I am a new member here on The Source. I played a small regular weekly 20-ish man tournament last night and thought I'd share my list and results. Did not take notes so I will just comment briefly.

Welcome, I see you run the 2 creatures + 3 EtA config. I would go with:

3 creatures + 3 EtA
or
4 creatures + 2 EtA

which would bring the total to 6. The creatures would be any combinations of Clique and Snapcaster. Of the 4 matches you played, did you use the SFM package at all? I question how often people board in that packages, is it really necessary.

[Sereon]

Welcome, I see you run the 2 creatures + 3 EtA config. I would go with:

3 creatures + 3 EtA
or
4 creatures + 2 EtA

which would bring the total to 6. The creatures would be any combinations of Clique and Snapcaster. Of the 4 matches you played, did you use the SFM package at all? I question how often people board in that packages, is it really necessary.

Thanks for the input. I'll try 3+3 since 3 entreat never let me down. It's huge imo.

As for the SfM package, I basically bring it in all fair matches. It was great vs RUG and huge in the BUG-control game. I absolutely love it!

[Polish Tamales]

How do you guys feel about having main board Flusterstorms?

Through testing this week, I found that I kept boarding in my 3rd copy of Entreat the Angels and 3 copies of Flusterstorms. Given the current meta, wouldn't it be more beneficial to just have 1 copy of Fluster (dropping a pierce) and just have the default Entreats at 3? After all, I don't want to spend that much time in game 1, or is that more of a personal preference rather than the theory behind the deck's construction?

[Dzra]

As you can see from my deck I had off-color fetches and only one volcanic. That will of course change. Will play 2 volcanics, 3 Tarn and 2 Mesa. Just didn't get them be4 the tournament.

Save your money on the Scalding Tarns. Polluted Deltas work just as well if you are using double Volcanic instead of a Mountain. The Mesas are nice though as fetches 9-10.


And solid article Einherjer. I don't agree too much with Shardless BUG being a bad matchup though. Death and Taxes can be bad, worse depending on their build, but I think it's usually more grindy than difficult (similar to Jund).

[Griselpuff]

Has joe posted a sb guide anywhere?

[Dzra]

Has joe posted a sb guide anywhere?

I don't think so, but you can probably find discussions of most matchups if you go searching through the thread.

[ThoSha]

After some testing there is something i really have to say:
Keranos is a beast. Singlehandedly owns Jund, Shardless BUG and any Delverdeck.

[Poron]

at that point, a Razormane Masticore is better...

[Griselpuff]

If you are getting to resolve a 5 mana sorcery speed card that does nothing upon entering the battlefield, I would hope that it would crush delver decks. Not saying it isn't playable, but it still seems like a sb card vs midrange to me

[ThoSha]

Good luck with stuff like Masticore against PWs and removal.
Not saying Keranos can't be dealt with, i just haven't seen so many Oblivion Rings lately.


akatsuki, thats exactly what he is. An excellent sideboard card.