Was just wondering about the manabase. Is it better to run Misty or Marsh Flats/Black fetch.
The black fetch can grab the all important basic swamp while Misty can grab a Trop. Thoughts? Being able to get the swamp consistently let's you cast abrupt decay with a swamp and a Deathrite. Fetch, Swamp into Deathrite means you can cast Decay in case you get bloodmooned.
Hi,
I worked on the sideboard table with Last Lejay's list. Here his list for remaining.
MD
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
SB
1 Savannah
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
UWr Delver
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB, +1 Thief
ANT
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Deluge, -2 Jace
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize
BUG Shardless
-2 Force
+1 Thief, +1 Pulse
BUG Tempo
-3 Force
+1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB
Dredge
-3 Decay
+1 Cage, +1 LoTV, +1 Pulse
Elfes
-3 Liliana, -1 Library
+1 NoSB, +1 Cage, +2 Seize
Jund
-4 Force
+1 LoTV, +1 Pulse, +2 Seize
Miracle
-2 Deluge, -2 Decay
+1 Pulse, +1 Thief, +1 NoSB, +1 Rod
Omni-Tell
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -4 Decay, -1 Deluge
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Thief
Sneak-Show
-1 Waste, -4 Decay, -4 Tarmo
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize
Esper-Blade
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB
Spiral Tide
-2 Deluge, -2 Decay, -2 Jace,
-1 Forest, -3 Liliana
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +1 Thief, +2 Duress, +2 Seize
Reanimator
-1 Forest, -2 Deluge, -4 Decay, -4 Tarmo
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +1 Cage, +1 LoTV
+2 Duress, +2 Seize
Merfolks
-1 Library
+1 Pulse
Painter
-1 Waste, -2 Deluge, -2 Jace, -4 Tarmo,
-1 Stalker
+4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Rod,
+1 Savannah
MUD
-2 Vision
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse
What are your feelings about this table ? Lejay said that he'd keep fows against delver.decks... but I don't see what to side out. Problem is to keep the count of blue cards for Fow.
do you see Mistakes or changes I'should do ? Lejay can we have your advice (if you have time, I know you're preparing a tournament) ?
I'm trying to figure these out as well. I'm not finished, but here are a few comments in what you suggest:
- ANT: you probably want Null Rod against storm, and you can safely cut stalker
- BUG: I wouldn't side Nosb in against BUG, unless they run TNN
- Dredge: I suggest cutting the Liliana first. Decay is an answer to needle on DRS.
- Miracle: Nosb is quite bad here.
- Omnitell: I would cut the second Deluge. Pulse isn't bad here.
- SneakShow: cut Deluge, keep a couple of decay for Moon, and bring in Pulse.
thanks. I've notioced your advices.
Against BUG Tempo, I prefer side in the NoSB, because of TNN and BOB, often played now. one of my big problems is Jace. I oftenly pwant to side it out, but it's impossible if I want to keep fows...
I think JTMS is good vs BUG tempo, since he wrecks Tombstalker and makes our long game better, and is Decay-proof
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After a week of testing (against BUG Delver and Deathblade vs friends), I've found that BUG Delver is a very favorable matchup and Deathblade is still not where I want to be.
Toxic Deluge does a TON of work in this deck, it feels almost a staple in the maindeck at the moment. A lot of games I was a million miles behind and once that card resolved I instantly won the game.
I understand the Deathblade is just a very solid deck. But them having up to 4 True-Name Nemesis is still a huge problem against this deck and I cannot justify putting Night of Soul's Betrayal against them for just that card. Or maybe I should because that's how I end up losing to most of the time? And what is the general consensus of discard spells against Stoneblade vs keeping in a number of Force of Wills? This deck has proven to be one of the best decks in the current meta at the moment with favorable matchups across the board except for Sneak Show / Painter. But with a deck that can quickly accelerate in to a True-Name Nemsis and attacks you from the Stoneforge Mystic angle is quite problematic, anyone has any insight on how to improve this matchup? I feel if this deck cannot have a favorable matchup against Deathblade then there's almost no reason in playing this deck in the North American meta.
Thanks all!
It's okay to keep in a few Forces against BUG Delver because you don't have many removal spells and you may need to gain tempo since you're suspending Ancestral Visions. I would not want NoSB unless they're playing both Dark Confidants + TNN (unlikely). I think resolving a JTMS is almost always better against BUG Delver compared to the other 4CMC enchantment. Does that help? If you're seeing those style of decks a lot you can also try Disfigures in the Sideboard.Originally Posted by Bonk
Hi Guys
Maybe I can answer some question now when Lejay is away. I have been playing this list over a month, with only one change in the sb -1 Leyline + 1 Cage. I feel that 1 Leyline is to random and like that I could cascade into Cage. Have discussed but Lejay likes one offs. :-) It is a really good deck, had difficult choice between this deck and another for BOM but last hour I decided to go with the other one. Went 8-2 so cant be unhappy about that but top 8 would be nice, I played against 3 combo decks at BOM (no elfs, which is the only DTB combo I have found this Shardless have atleast 50% against) so dont think Shardless would be a better choose for me.
@ivanpei Often you wanna pick up forest and 1-2 UGS and forest with DRS work aswell to cast Decay. I fetch more times for forest then swamp.
Here are some sb changes for Bonk list "sb guide". Dont have the time look on every deck. Remember I have 2 Cage and no Leyline. And as allways you have to change depends how their list is and how they sb.
UWr Delver
-2 Jace
+1 Rod, +1 Pulse
ANT
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp, -1 Liliana, -1 Stacker - 4 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief +1 Null Rod
BUG Tempo
-2 Jace - 1 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Thoughtseize
Elfes
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -2 Jace, -1 swamp (draw), -1 Stacker - 4 AV
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +1 Duress(draw), +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Pulse, +1 Thief + 1 NoSB
Jund
-3 Force
+1 Pulse, +2 Seize
Miracle
-2 Deluge, -3 Liliana, -1 Swamp - 1 Tombs.
+1 Pulse, +1 Thief, , +1 Rod, +2 Duress, +2 Seize
Sneak-Show
-2 Toxic D. -4 Decay, -1 Tombst. , -4 Tarmogoyf -1 Forest
+1 Savannah, +4 Mage, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +1 Notion Thief +1 Pulse
Esper-Blade
-4 Force
+1 Rod, +1 Thief, +1 Pulse, +1 NoSB
Reanimator
-1 Forest, -4 Tarmo, -4 Av, -1 swamp, -1 Stacker -1 Abrupt Decay
+4 Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Duress, +2 Seize, +2 Cage, +1 Thief
RUG Delver
-2 Jace
+ 1 Savannah +1 Maelstrom Pulse
Cheers!
Why side out liliana vs miracle? i think is so good vs miracle,I always won against miracle when I casted liliana early. And i tested so much vs miracle, because in my team there are many miracles player. When she is on the board the dont have easy way to destroy her and many times we can solve his final in three or four rounds. IMHO
I like Liliana against Miracles aswell but all other cards are great too. Sometimes it is not specielly good specielly on draw and your opponent have a Vendilion the same can happen late game. But it is much better if you play with more discard like Hymn because then you can make your way for the Liliana. Both removing instant Creatures, Counters or just striping down there hand so when you use Liliana's discard ability it's matter more. If I would have Baleful Strix in the main it would makes more seens aswell keep Liliana because it blocks Vendilion or Snapcaster.
But now without either of them more often they can just discard something random and play jace next turn or like I meantion just play Vendilion.
If I wanna keep it I will have more problems when Jace hit the table because some of the cards I would sb out is creatures.
Last edited by Goosen; 05-17-2014 at 08:21 AM.
Against miracles, I'd sooner go:
-2 Waste, -2 Deluge, -1 Stalker
+1 Thief, +1 Rod, +1 Pulse, +2 Duress (golgari charm in my list)
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Has anyone (besides me) ever tested dropping Ancestral Vision for Ponder?
Vision is a great card and obviously can be taken advantage of in a deck that can set up a cascade trigger. It's great as a turn 1 play if you don't have a DRS, and against many decks that are slower the card advantage can be the key to winning.
However, in almost every other instance the immediate card selection and filter provided by Ponder is better. Beyond turns 1-3, (against just about anything that isn't UWr Miracles) suspending a Vision is pretty mediocre compared to just being able to immediately draw into a threat/answer/land/counterspell/etc. Also consider how sometimes your Vision just draws into 3 Lands or otherwise useless cards for a given matchup. Overall I'd say that Vision is a pretty clunky, random card.
I think BUG Cascade already has a fantastic game against non-combo decks, just by the nature of playing a bunch of blowout cards like Toxic Deluge, Liliana, Jace, DRS, Tarmogoyf, and Shardless Agent. You can generally just plow through a lot of decks regardless of whether or not you ever resolved a Vision. Often, cascading into Vision is 'win-more', since the deck has plenty of card advantage as it is. Ponder is also often a better topdeck when you're behind on the board state.
Playing Ponder over Vision drops a few points against control and midrange, but gives the deck more power in the early turns against Combo and Tempo decks. In these matchups, you need to be proactive in disruption and/or building a board state, and twiddling your thumbs while a Vision ticks down leaves you extremely vulnerable to these decks enacting their own game-plan. Against RUG or UWR Delver, suspending Vision often grants them enough time to find a timely Pyroblast or Stifle. Against BUG or DnT, perhaps you've given them enough time to find a Notion Thief or a Spirit of the Labyrinth. Against SNT, you just die to their combo on turn 2 or 3. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if you have 7 cards in hand if you end up losing.
Ponder smoothes out how the deck operates. In game 1 it allows you to adjust your strategy against the matchup at hand in the early turns. In sideboard games it increases the likelihood of finding your sideboard cards in a reasonable timeframe. I don't deny that Ancestral Vision is a powerful card, but given how fast the format is right now I think that Shardless BUG would fair somewhat better against the format as a whole by running Ponder.
In testing I haven't noticed any significant drawbacks with the change, while I *have* noticed the aforementioned advantages.
I'd be curious to hear what you all think, but it's worth testing a bit for yourself prior to any speculation in the abstract.
Hey buddy! It's been a while and I hope all is going well with you lately. You planning to make it down here for Columbus SCG at all next month? Would love to theory-craft/test with you in before then.
Anyways, I think the point of running Toxic Deluge in a deck like this is to off-set the tempo loss caused by suspending an AV. Ponder allows you to find certain cards at certain times much easier (best in Delver decks because it's an early game focused deck and card quality is more important here). In a deck like Shardless you don't exactly care about the quality of cards, quantity is often always better. You do make a point of Ponder being very smooth early game, so it's not unrealistic that could be a replacement.
But in a deck that bases itself on turn 3+, with higher mana cost, Ponder isn't the best since you cannot use many of the cards you look through immediately to great effect the turn after or the same turn. (like Delver can find Stifle/Pierce/Daze/Hymn and cast them almost immediately). Cards like Sylvan Library are great in this deck because they serve similar effects, but in a way more powerful form, as the game drags on, Library filters through more cards and results in greater value.
TL;DR I think Ponder is sub-optimal due to the fact that cards in this deck have a higher mana cost, and those cards have greater/similar effects during mid/late game than early game. Once you have the mana for mid/late game, you just want to have a bunch of cards to cast turn after turn.
Hello guys,
what are your in/out versus D&T?
I know it's a positive matchup but close to be difficult.
I have been trying the following:
+ 1 Pulse
+ 1 Rod
+ 1 Nosb
+ 2 Seize
- 4 Fow
-1 Jace
And I'm seriously considering cutting the 2nd Jace for the Savannah.
Agree with this against DnT and I am sb in the extra land. But instead of removing the 2nd Jace I cut Tombstalker, almost allways sb it out against RIP decks. With Tarmogoyf you can allways just decay rip and Tarmo starts growing again, but it is very hard to play Tombstalker if they have at any pooint played RIP.
He's also complete garbage if it's UW with JTMS.
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What's the general consensus against Deathblade? Do we want discard or Force? Has anyone had good experience with Forces?
Right now I've been doing
+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief
-2 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker
-----
Or do we want?
+1 Null Rod
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Notion Thief
+2 Thoughtseize
-4 Force of Will
-1 Tombstalker
Thanks all.
It's a question of play style, I think. Personally I find the prospect of 1-for-1 discard more attractive than 2-for-1 countermagic--but, then again, I'm an aggressive player. If you are more conservative, keeping a FoW up for their Jace/SFM/bomb is good, too--if they don't have Pierce or some other nastiness.
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I prefer Thoughseize over FOW and I allways sb in NoSB aswell.
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