[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[slave]

Onya Hollywood, I appreciate all the time you've put in here, fella.

Raise your glass boys;
Cheers Hollywood.

[Final Fortune]

FF hit the nail on the head with his list he posted a page or two ago. I just got cold feet at the last minute and switched back because I felt uncomfortable running into hate without protection. At any rate, once you've played the deck for an uninterrupted, extended period of time - years, in fact - there comes a point where you don't like auto-losing to graveyard hate like that. For people new to the archetype it's a thrill, but when you're looking to navigate deep into an eight or nine-round event, you're going to need a lot more luck than you normally would to dodge hate and make it in. I just got tired of that and the loss kind of opened my eyes to the fact that I couldn't stand it any longer.

I know how you feel, the deck used to be a lot more fun when everybody was playing Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction and you had to recover but now that games are immediately decided by Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace the variance of the deck is incredibly high. I usually switch between Manaless Dredge, Affinity and Storm in order to keep things fresh.

[Mr. Froggy]

While I agree that just losing to RiP and Cage can be a downer, I still really love the deck.

[easysantiago]

FF hit the nail on the head with his list he posted a page or two ago. I just got cold feet at the last minute and switched back because I felt uncomfortable running into hate without protection. At any rate, once you've played the deck for an uninterrupted, extended period of time - years, in fact - there comes a point where you don't like auto-losing to graveyard hate like that. For people new to the archetype it's a thrill, but when you're looking to navigate deep into an eight or nine-round event, you're going to need a lot more luck than you normally would to dodge hate and make it in. I just got tired of that and the loss kind of opened my eyes to the fact that I couldn't stand it any longer.

That's too bad. Thanks for all your work on Manaless and good luck with Vintage!

[Mr. Froggy]

I finished 4th at my LGS with Manaless Dredge (non-blue build) during the weekly event.

Round 1: 0-2 vs BUG Delver
Round 2: 2-1 vs DeathBlade
Round 3: 2-0 vs RUG Delver

The other decks there were: Jund Depths, Sneak'N'Show, Pox, Goblin Stompy (awesome deck).

We need more people...

[easysantiago]

I finished 4th at my LGS with Manaless Dredge (non-blue build) during the weekly event.

Round 1: 0-2 vs BUG Delver
Round 2: 2-1 vs DeathBlade
Round 3: 2-0 vs RUG Delver

The other decks there were: Jund Depths, Sneak'N'Show, Pox, Goblin Stompy (awesome deck).

We need more people...

Congrats!

What variations are you running in the main?

Can you link to the Goblin Stompy deck list?

[Mr. Froggy]

Thanks!

I ran the same list I've been running, featuring Griselbrand as my DR target of choice.

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Dryad Arbor

My SB sucked because I couldn't find any Leyline of Sanctities...

4 M. Trap
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Contagion
4 Sickening Shoal (although these saved my ass vs RUG Delver)

As for my friend's Stompy list, it was something kind of like this:

9 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Moggcatcher
4 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Goblin Settler
1 Rakka Mar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
1 Boggart Shenanigans

[Echelon]

I recently started running this deck (specifically the Unmask-list) and was wondering the following:

Why not forfeit the Unmasks and substitute them for a fourth Balustrade Spy and 3 Greater Mossdogs? It kicks the dredger count up to 19 (going from 10% of our opening seven being without a dredger to 6%), adds another black creature to feed to Ichorid and adds a full four more creatures to satisfy Nether Shadow. It also increases the odds of having both Dread Return and Balustrade Spy in our graveyard as soon as possible. In one of my first games I had to spend a turn or 2 just dredging away until I finally found the Spy I needed to go for the kill, so doing so seems like a rather logical step to me.

I understand the need to explore our opponents' hand before going off, or the need to slow down our opponent when they're on a faster deck then we are, but especially the latter seems to me like something you'd handle with cards from your sideboard (i.e. after game 1).

Thank you in advance for your answers!

[easysantiago]

Thanks!

I ran the same list I've been running, featuring Griselbrand as my DR target of choice.

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Dryad Arbor

My SB sucked because I couldn't find any Leyline of Sanctities...

4 M. Trap
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Contagion
4 Sickening Shoal (although these saved my ass vs RUG Delver)

As for my friend's Stompy list, it was something kind of like this:

9 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Moggcatcher
4 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Goblin Settler
1 Rakka Mar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
1 Boggart Shenanigans

Solid list. I like Griselbrand as a DR target (who doesn't). I know how you feel about the SB. Mine is also incomplete for a similar reason (I can't find any Mindbreak Traps and I don't feel any pressure to order them). Have you tried out the Unmask variation? I've just picked up my play set and I am anxious to try it out.

That Goblin Stompy list looks great. I have a weak spot for Goblins, but I've only played a casual tribal version of the archetype.

[Thrasher]

I recently started running this deck (specifically the Unmask-list) and was wondering the following:

Why not forfeit the Unmasks and substitute them for a fourth Balustrade Spy and 3 Greater Mossdogs? It kicks the dredger count up to 19 (going from 10% of our opening seven being without a dredger to 6%), adds another black creature to feed to Ichorid and adds a full four more creatures to satisfy Nether Shadow. It also increases the odds of having both Dread Return and Balustrade Spy in our graveyard as soon as possible. In one of my first games I had to spend a turn or 2 just dredging away until I finally found the Spy I needed to go for the kill, so doing so seems like a rather logical step to me.

I understand the need to explore our opponents' hand before going off, or the need to slow down our opponent when they're on a faster deck then we are, but especially the latter seems to me like something you'd handle with cards from your sideboard (i.e. after game 1).

Thank you in advance for your answers!

I wouldn't trade Unmask for a 4% chance,specially because dredger + Unmask is significantly stronger than dredger + dredger, in my opinion. As for the +1 Balustrade, i'm more of a grindy player myself, so i don't feel the need of an increased chance of comboing, i prefer being able to lock the game in my favour, which is something Unmask(or Chancellor of Force, they fullfill a similar role) helps doing, due to the ability of removing the the few threats that can actually annoy us. Basically, comboing often helps only when you're ahead in the game, Unmask helps in complicated situations. Also, a dredge 3 in the opening is quite weak, and it's not good enough in quite some matchups. Still better than no dredger, but not something i'd dedicate 4 slots to.

I wouldn't rely too much on g2-3's, they're much more difficult. Having a good chance of winning g1 is good with this deck.

[d0nkey]

I also like Unmask for when my opponent tries to get crafty by giving me the play.

Unmasking a dredger with a cantrip or 2 in hand is pretty nuts. I have been pretty surprised at how many unmask + black card + phantasma + dredger + cantrip hands I have come across while being on the play.

[Mr. Froggy]

When I play Manaless, I know I win maybe 70-75% of my G1s (dependent on match-up) it's the other ones that are much tougher.

[Echelon]

Alrighty, that made me reconsider . Thank you very much for your answers!

[jimmythegreek]

I also like Unmask for when my opponent tries to get crafty by giving me the play.

Unmasking a dredger with a cantrip or 2 in hand is pretty nuts. I have been pretty surprised at how many unmask + black card + phantasma + dredger + cantrip hands I have come across while being on the play.

Against certain blue opponents that line of play is asking for a blowout. .....sexy but super risky. I used to run the blue list but realized that even with force against said decks most always had counter backup. For me personally I perfer the spy list and am interested in trying unmask, I have chancellor occupying that spot presently. Why play grisel over spy?

[ahg113]

Why play grisel over spy?

In corner cases, specifically Show'N'Tell and some creature based decks with removal (RUG, Jund, Patriot Delver), Gris > Spy. That's cause Spy forces the issue, but is not itself an isolated wincon. Gris is an isolated wincon. Both are very reliable at flipping decks. Spy obviously flips it, Gris will virtually flip it. Spy means no free uncounterable creatures in Dryad Arbor, whereas Gris allows it.

So there are pluses and minuses. Typically comes down to card availability, and preference. I'd say the Gris list offers a bit more SB flexibility as well, as there are options for lands, which leads to an option of including green anti-hate spells, and Bloodghast too.

Survey says... Spy list have had recent better higher showings, but to each their own.

[Echelon]

You could run a Progenitus (or something similar) in your SB for when you face S&T. They cast S&T, you drop your Spy on the battlefield, put Progenitus back on top of your library and it's GG. Thank you, S&T player! Even if they dispose of your Bridges and board that turn, you'll still have the win when your turn comes up .

Perhaps Worldspine Wurm would fit the bill better. If you somehow end up with that in your hand, you can just drop that for your side of the S&T, during your turn sac the Wurm for a Therapy and use the tokens as you see fit while the Wurm jumps back into the library.

Coincidentally, it also gives you an insta-win vs. Imperal Painter

[Mr. Froggy]

In corner cases, specifically Show'N'Tell and some creature based decks with removal (RUG, Jund, Patriot Delver), Gris > Spy. That's cause Spy forces the issue, but is not itself an isolated wincon. Gris is an isolated wincon. Both are very reliable at flipping decks. Spy obviously flips it, Gris will virtually flip it. Spy means no free uncounterable creatures in Dryad Arbor, whereas Gris allows it.

So there are pluses and minuses. Typically comes down to card availability, and preference. I'd say the Gris list offers a bit more SB flexibility as well, as there are options for lands, which leads to an option of including green anti-hate spells, and Bloodghast too.

Survey says... Spy list have had recent better higher showings, but to each their own.

I think if people had the budget to play Griselbrand, they would. Spy lists have been doing better because its a 0.05$ card whereas Griselbrand is $30.

[scottpou]

I think if people had the budget to play Griselbrand, they would. Spy lists have been doing better because its a 0.05$ card whereas Griselbrand is $30.

I would actually disagree with this. I actually changed over from Grizzy over to Spy before going with the blue build. Every now and then you have to wait a turn to attack in order to get those 7 sometimes necessary life points before activating. Losing on that turn you were waiting is pretty frustrating. I actually did what Mr. Froggy suggested and would run 1 Progenitus for against S&T and Imperial Painter. I agree that Griselbrand is a better creature in a vacuum, but speed and consistency is our greatest friend in Manaless. We have already extensively discussed that it is viable to run the green board. However, I don't like setting myself back for more than several turns just to fight hate before even playing. That's just my personal choice.

Also side note:

Spy means no free uncounterable creatures in Dryad Arbor, whereas Gris allows it.

At around the same time as Hollywood's last list, I started playing around with 0 cost creatures. To me if someone is countering your 0 mana creatures, they don't know how to play against dredge. My research objective was to be able to get around Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. So I focused in on Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker and Noxious Revival instead of cards like Memnite, Shifting Wall, and Phyrexian Marauder. I wouldn't say I succeeded in my objective, but there was some really interesting interactions with Noxious being an instant when/if Deathrite Shaman targeted a Cabal Therapy or Dread Return OR when Surgical Extraction was played on my first Bridge from Below.

[Eclipsebolt]

I would actually disagree with this. I actually changed over from Grizzy over to Spy before going with the blue build. Every now and then you have to wait a turn to attack in order to get those 7 sometimes necessary life points before activating. Losing on that turn you were waiting is pretty frustrating. I actually did what Mr. Froggy suggested and would run 1 Progenitus for against S&T and Imperial Painter. I agree that Griselbrand is a better creature in a vacuum, but speed and consistency is our greatest friend in Manaless. We have already extensively discussed that it is viable to run the green board. However, I don't like setting myself back for more than several turns just to fight hate before even playing. That's just my personal choice.

Also side note:

At around the same time as Hollywood's last list, I started playing around with 0 cost creatures. To me if someone is countering your 0 mana creatures, they don't know how to play against dredge. My research objective was to be able to get around Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. So I focused in on Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker and Noxious Revival instead of cards like Memnite, Shifting Wall, and Phyrexian Marauder. I wouldn't say I succeeded in my objective, but there was some really interesting interactions with Noxious being an instant when/if Deathrite Shaman targeted a Cabal Therapy or Dread Return OR when Surgical Extraction was played on my first Bridge from Below.

i agree that spy is played over griselbrand not for price but because its the better card for the deck in most cases. my last event i played 2 griselbrand in the side for the show and tell matchup but 4 spys in main.

could you post your list with the revivals?

[LDX]

Quick question, how the hell can you build a Painter sideboard when you play Manaless? I heard of it, but never saw an actual list.

Can someone provide?