[Primer] Elves!

[Kayradis]

[danyul]

Your pictures appear to have been uploaded improperly. I just see a little error question mark box.

[SpencerS]

Councils Judgement

Why should this card be on our radar? Well, this card is going to be picked up by D&T and Maverick. What is one of those decks worst match ups? Elves. Now, why is the matchup so bad for them post board after they get to access their white disruption? Progenitus.

I think it will replace O ring in their side boards as a way to deal with TNN, and more relevant to us, the soul of the world. Something to keep in mind for the post board plan versus these decks. We can no longer blindly win through NO-PRO, and must plan for the possible out they now possess besides low CMC artifact hate.

[Julian23]

This is WAY too early to call and I think it's very likely things won't end up that way, but with Toxic Deluge and that new Über-Vindicate, I keep growing less of Progenitus lately. If only Aetherling was green.

On another note, had great success with Packmaster maindeck in the Legacy Daily Events today. Also Bitterblossoms, Meekstones, Surgicals and 1 Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Trying to get out of the "old" flow to get a feel for the new stuff. Needless to say, I'm super soft to combo with the current configuration but I don't mind right now.

/edit: went 3-1 twice in today's Legacy DEs only losing to Elves (twice!).

[nudon]

Do you guys think packmaster would be better than imperious perfect? Packmaster can store a guy pre-sweeper but imperious perfect is better post-sweeper.

[dte]

I really think tat we need a decay/bolt-proof elf with a +1/+1 effect in SB. So, not imperious perfect, or as an addition to Wilt-Leaf Liege/Wren Run's Packmaster.

If we had enough SB slots, we could have more than one target, but SB slots are quite hard to have if you don't want to be soft vs combo.

Wilt-Leaf Liege vs Wren Run's Packmaster
WRP is better once in play, and very strong in some MUs. It's even playable in some MUs where WLL is not (or at least bad).
However the need for an elf has been an issue for me against jund, which is one of the MUs this target is included for. So unless there is more fair decks and I could include a second GSZ-target against fair decks, I will stick with WLL (if I put a second it would be WRP over imperious/archdruid/2nd WLL).

[Zombie]

This is WAY too early to call and I think it's very likely things won't end up that way, but with Toxic Deluge and that new Über-Vindicate, I keep growing less of Progenitus lately. If only Aetherling was green.

So.


Sigarda is probably just better, though.

EDIT: Asd, Deluge/ûber-vindicate. Should be ok for big-midsize beater slot though.

On another note, had great success with Packmaster maindeck in the Legacy Daily Events today. Also Bitterblossoms, Meekstones, Surgicals and 1 Sylvan Library in the sideboard. Trying to get out of the "old" flow to get a feel for the new stuff. Needless to say, I'm super soft to combo with the current configuration but I don't mind right now.

/edit: went 3-1 twice in today's Legacy DEs only losing to Elves (twice!).

How's Bitterblossom been for you?

[Echelon]

Councils Judgement

Why should this card be on our radar? Well, this card is going to be picked up by D&T and Maverick. What is one of those decks worst match ups? Elves. Now, why is the matchup so bad for them post board after they get to access their white disruption? Progenitus.

I think it will replace O ring in their side boards as a way to deal with TNN, and more relevant to us, the soul of the world. Something to keep in mind for the post board plan versus these decks. We can no longer blindly win through NO-PRO, and must plan for the possible out they now possess besides low CMC artifact hate.

Or you just NO-Hoof for the win... Seriously, there isn't all that much to worry about.

Played this today:
Also, fuck Dredge. That matchup is just made of frustration. T2 Ooze too slow, yay -_-'. Really makes me want to play the fourth Therapy to have more sac outlets.

Facing a lot of dredge? Try Dryad Millitant! GSZ-ing that T2 is often quick enough, the only exception being when they already have a Dread Return in their graveyard. You instantly shoot down all their flashback cards. Sure, it doesn't instantly win you the game, but often will give you the time you need to get the kill. I know most people here are against running one, but this little bugger has done quite some good work for me so far in my meta (I tend to face quite a bit of Dredge, and it also buys me a little bit more time vs. ANT). Regardless, also keep running some non-GSZ'able graveyard sweepers.

[Yanley]

I use one Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard to fight dredge since you can land it on turn 1 but the Dryad Militant idea isn't so bad. I'm more afraid of Dread Return than any of their spells. Last time, I was on the draw and my dredge opponent unfortunately used a Dread Return to reanimate an Elesh Norn. Rough beats..

[Echelon]

And landing a Millitant before they have a DR in their graveyard prevents that from happening :)

The last dredge-opponent I faced knew of my Millitant-shenanigans and opened with a T1 Carefull Study, dropping a Dread Return in his graveyard. On my T1, I dropped Millitant but unfortunately Elesh Norn hit his graveyard soon after. Oh well :P

[Julian23]

4-0'ed today's Legacy Daily Event as well, #boom, I'm back! Still only at 1800 Constructed Rating but after losing so hard last week, it feels really good to 10-2 over the last three DEs with the two losses only from the mirror match.

Here's what I was using. It's probably super bad but the heavy hitting sideboard cards such as Meekstone were a lot of fun. It's like taking hardcore revenge on RUG for all the crimes it committed to me in the past. #Booyakasha!!!

[D@N]

How many combo decks did u face where you would want ruric md? Im also thinking of running the packmaster main.

[Zombie]

New, crazy idea for SB

Crazy Board (aka Blame Lejay):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy

Probably needs an 8 fetch manabase with only 1 basic or 1 Arbor. (In my 19 land version, anyway)
Is nuts, but hey :D
Not like the combo matchups put much, if any, pressure on your manabase. Just play a trop and a Savannah, everything else is green already and you have 4 DRS 2 Birchlore as bonus.

[dte]

New, crazy idea for SB

Crazy Board (aka Blame Lejay):
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy

Probably needs an 8 fetch manabase with only 1 basic or 1 Arbor. (In my 19 land version, anyway)
Is nuts, but hey :D
Not like the combo matchups put much, if any, pressure on your manabase. Just play a trop and a Savannah, everything else is green already and you have 4 DRS 2 Birchlore as bonus.

Too crazy I think.

Meddling Mage is not better than seize/cabal vs combo, especially in our deck and with your SB which had no other blue or white card than Meddling.

Combo will enter bounce/decay for ScOoze/Gaddock/value (slowing us down)

Meddling is already not so great in white/blue decks, but it's terrible in elves: hard to cast, to protect, not tutorable...
Play at least one gaddock before this!

And bitterblossom, which is here almost only for miracle, is I think worst than Needle/Choke/Garruck/Xenagos in this MU, and not playable in others.

Otherwise,
What's the logic behind WRP MD?
Better MU vs Miracle/Jund/BUG/D&T?

[danyul]

I think the WRP is there for the fair matchups or against decks wit Bolts and Decays. I could see it's application against Miracles but it doesn't seem that strong vs Swords to Plowshares. I could be wrong. I have one coming in the mail and I should be able to test it out this weekend at one of our larger local events.

In other news, the thread hasn't seen much action lately. I was gold fishing and thought this was an interesting dilemma. I have started my second turn after playing DRS off a fetchland. How would you play out the rest of this hand and why? For those who can't make out the pictures, there is a DRS and Forest in play with a land in the graveyard. Your hand consists of GSZ, 2 Elvish Visionary, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Gaea's Cradle, and 1 fetchland. I'm just curious to see other people's thought processes. There are quite a few ways to play out this hand.

[haganbmj]

In other news, the thread hasn't seen much action lately. I was gold fishing and thought this was an interesting dilemma. I have started my second turn after playing DRS off a fetchland. How would you play out the rest of this hand and why? For those who can't make out the pictures, there is a DRS and Forest in play with a land in the graveyard. Your hand consists of GSZ, 2 Elvish Visionary, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Gaea's Cradle, and 1 fetchland. I'm just curious to see other people's thought processes. There are quite a few ways to play out this hand.

I might go with a GSZ for Heritage off of Forest+DRS, tapping Cradle for 2 to play Quirion Ranger, returning the forest to untap the Deathrite into Visionary+Visionary or something (depending on the draws).
If you have some idea of what your opponent is playing then maybe you need to save the GSZ for a Viridian Shaman or something later, in which case I'd be satisfied with Visionary, Cradle for 2, Visionary then having 6 mana available on turn three with a GSZ and a Quirion + 2 cards.

So the two board states could be

Cradle, DRS, Quirion, Heritage, Visionary x2
(Verdant, Forest, 2 cards in hand)

Forest, Cradle, DRS, Visionary x2
(Verdant, 2 cards, Quirion, GSZ in hand)


And I personally think it really depends on what the first visionary draws and if you know what you're playing against.
I'm partial to the more conservative second line though since it leaves your GSZ open and provides a sufficient amount of mana on turn three.

[danyul]

Interesting. I actually wanted to just play Q.Ranger, fetch (into D.Arbor on opponent's EOT), pass. I'm perhaps over-valuing having an active Dryad Arbor in play on the next turn. Then I can play Visionaryx2 and have a superpowered Cradle to try and push that GSZ into a Hoof, depending on what I draw off the Visionaries+draw step.

Your second line provides a nice compromise though. The more I think about it, the more I like that.

[haganbmj]

Interesting. I actually wanted to just play Q.Ranger, fetch (into D.Arbor on opponent's EOT), pass. I'm perhaps over-valuing having an active Dryad Arbor in play on the next turn. Then I can play Visionaryx2 and have a superpowered Cradle to try and push that GSZ into a Hoof, depending on what I draw off the Visionaries+draw step.

I think the active Dryad is probably a bit less relevant when you already have a Deathrite in play, but that's more of a preference thing.
That said I might be overvaluing the two cards you draw off Visionary.

Well the nice thing about leaving the GSZ in your hand is that you have access to Symbiote on turn three if your draws were subpar.

[danyul]

I think the active Dryad is probably a bit less relevant when you already have a Deathrite in play, but that's more of a preference thing.
That said I might be overvaluing the two cards you draw off Visionary.

Well the nice thing about leaving the GSZ in your hand is that you have access to Symbiote on turn three if your draws were subpar.

You're right on both fronts. I guess I mostly wanted to keep the GSZ in hand and play the Cradle at the last possible moment for fear of Wasteland. Of course, having a live opponent would change everything. That's just another reason why over-goldfishing with this deck can actually make you dumber sometimes.

[cachipus]

T1 Fetch to Forest and GSZ=0 for Dryad (I have 2 Visionary and quirion to play next turn. I dont like the DSR on this T1 because y I want 2 extra mana of my T1 mana generator in T2 and if my opponent doesnt fetch i doesnt have it)
T2 Quirion, DRS, Cradle for 3 mana, Visionary.
Depending on the Visionary draw there are multiples plays of the turn but at least you could play the other visionary and pass turn with the forest and 2 new cards.
Sorry for my terrible english.