I'm not rock lee but I can try and answer some of the questions:Originally Posted by Ivan
Q: Why no cavern of souls?
A: Cavern of Souls is indeed very powerful and it can win games. However you already have ways to help fight counters. Common plays include Show and Telling, getting it countered, then playing Primeval Titan after. Another play is to cast Crop Rotation and have a plan for if they do and don't counter it. If they do counter it, that's one less Force of Will which makes Primeval Titan resolving really easy. If they don't counter it, you can try and ramp, gain life, get Eye of Ugin if your board is developed enough, or just get a shuffle out of it. It's a win-win (usually)
Q: Why no Ulamog?
A: I would personally prefer playing Ulamog rather than Kozilek but based on what Rock Lee has said before, he said that he now has other ways of destroying any kind of permanent (Karn, Krosan Grip, Repeal, etc). He also said a long time ago about the reason being related to multiples of 15 which you have 3 Cloudpost, a candelabra, and an Eye of Ugin to get a really fast eldrazi.
Q: Why no Tabernacle?
A: Tabernacle doesn't actually stop anything. It slows them down a little but most games where Tabernacle is out you can win without it and it is only really good vs. Empty the Warrens, something you shouldn't let happen in the first place.
Q: Why no Venser?
A: In my experience Venser is only really good against Show and Tell. Sneak and Tell is a great matchup and Omni-Tell isn't very common but you would rather have other type of hate for it than Venser.
Q: Why no Obstinate Baloth?
A: You shouldn't be relying on Obstinate Baloth to play vs. discard, as good as it is. Use Sensei's Divining Top and Cantrips smart.
Miracles is quite possibly the best matchup for this deck so you shouldn't be too worried about it. Against that deck unless you're bad at MTG in general the deck becomes auto-pilot to the point of hilarity. You should do great there.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
Thank you alot bro, the other tournament I only lose 2 rounds in 2-days. They was vs UR Burn and Team America, do u know about side plan and game vs this? Rlly thanks ^^
As Rock Lee said, there isn't really a clear-cut plan on how to go about beating certain decks. It comes with experience. Play vs. Good players and learn.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
I actually run Cavern as my 26th land and have liked it a lot in our metagame. It's best when crop rotating into it or sandbagging it as 6th land for Titan when opponent is clearly representing FoW or daze, etc.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
I almost bought a Foil Japanese Karn in PA. They wanted 300$ for it.
muahaha
I do have Foil japanese Emrakul and Titans.
Its a delight when I smash them to the table <3
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ARC] Khalni Garden
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [OD] Moment's Peace
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 2 [MMA] Glen Elendra Archmage
Here's the list I'm tinkering with post-event. Very similar.
As Promised I'll go over some basic side in's. Side outs will be more vague and amorphous.
Swan Song -> In vs Blood Moon, Counterbalance, nearly every form of Combo
Phyrexian Revoker -> In vs Reanimator, Storm, DnT (if mangara or more aggro heavy ie many angels/flickers/equipment), Most forms of combo (Omni the only one that comes to mind where you don't)
Ensnaring Bridge -> Anything aggro'ing you with creatures or that makes you discard, or both. Don't worry about not winning through it, there are tons of ways to win with all the turns.
Mindbreak Trap -> Fast Combo, Counterbalance, Lands, Elves.
Karn Liberated -> Combo, BUG, or when needing to hide behind an ensnaring bridge.
Glen Elendra Archemage -> Combo, when flying blocks are relevant
ROE? or Promo?
The RoE is 2000$+
The titans are from booster.
The emrakuls are promo ones.
Yes I know they cost a lot. But I got the emrakuls when I was in japan so I keep playing the promo ones. Really dont understand how can an emrakul cost more tan a jace...
You could also post what u usualy side out. I know its not always the same. And depends but a more or less list would be great. Cause for example against cunterbalance I dont side the counters. Just sided the 2-3 krossans and was good enought to smash them game after game.
I suppose a general "when I side these cards out" in combination with sideboard "when I side these in" could help people compose a holistic sideboarding melange. Here are the cards I side out and when.
Emrakul/Kozilek/Eye of Ugin -> Only against fast combo. I normally side out Emrakul versus many forms of combo, and if I'm siding in revoker I usually keep in Eye just to tutor it. Kozilek if they run discard or I need many counters.
Primeval Titans -> If Show & tells are coming out 1-2 of these come out, ifnot all of them.
Lands -> If density needs to go up I'll side out a Karakas, Chasm, Glimmerpost(1-2), Cloudpost (1-2). Don't be afraid to side out lands if you need to add en-masse, ie against specific types of Combo.
Crop Rotations -> I side these out versus Chalice @ 1, Counterbalance, or when Chasm/Bog/Anti-wasteland aren't huge priorities.
Expedition Map -> I rarely side these out as fixing mana on zero colored is important, but sometimes 1 can get slipped out.
Repeal -> Really only against Elves, but any deck with nothing good to bounce. Repeal can't be used solely for draw/acceleration.
Sensei's Divining Top -> If I suspect Revoker/Null Rod/Needle this is often a 1-2 card out. Also against super aggressive combo you won't have the time to abuse this. so 1-2 come out.
Show & Tell -> Obviously against anything super combo-y. Racing opponents is dangerous. Controlling them is far safer. Only keep these in against combo if it is combat-based or graveyard based.
Pithing Needle -> Really only side these out if nothing gets hit. (Omnishow, Dragon Stompy, Storm, Chalice @ 1 decks sometimes)
Candelabra of Tawnos -> I side these out against decks that run both discard and abrupt decay. THe combination can leave you with no loci and a card that does nothing.
Moment's Peace -> Anything pressuring your life total with combat this stays in. For most else it can ditch.
Long post ahead because I wanted to cover a bunch of things. If your idea of "TL;DR" is more than a few sentences, move along ;)
Thanks for the information, Rock. Maybe I'm weird, but like I said: I find siding in to be easy, but siding out to be difficult.
I'll take a stab at some of these questions too, as I feel a little better equipped in this category.
Cavern of Souls comes in and out of my lists and ultimately I feel like it falls into the "good but not great" category. One thing I've noticed is that I almost never tutor for it. The fact that it can only situationally produce colored mana is a huge downside. Sometimes you'll only have one colored source to play with anyway, and if that colored source is Cavern it means you can't Crop Rotation, Show and Tell, or even Brainstorm. If I'm tutoring, it is almost always to either ramp, gain life, or get access to colored mana. Cavern is none of those.
I may be the only one, but I maintain that Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is just plain better than Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre for a number of reasons. First, he's cheaper. I have counted a larger-than-you'd-expect number of instances where that one mana was the difference between casting an Eldrazi and wishing I was casting an Eldrazi. Second, he's larger. While swinging with an Eldrazi usually means you've won anyway, it doesn't always, and sometimes an extra damage here or there adds up. Kozilek and Ulamog are also Swords to Plowshares magnets, and an extra two life could even represent another upkeep payment of Glacial Chasm. Third, the fact that Ulamog is indestructible is almost irrelevant. The only removal spell I've ever had played against me that handles Kozilek and not Ulamog is Maelstrom Pulse. Finally, Ulamog's cast trigger, while powerful, is also redundant. With patient play, Repeal, Krosan Grip, Karn Liberated, Karakas or sweepers (if you're running any) will get rid of the problem card. There is no Legacy-viable card in all of Magic that does what Kozilek's trigger does for you. You can even cast Kozilek into a Standstill and barely care at all.
I don't have 400+ dollars to spend on a single card, so I'm theorycrafting, but I don't think The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is necessary anymore with where the deck has been evolved. Right now, we're running lots of abilities that function as pseudo-removal as it is. While it is tutorable, all the places where Tabernacle is strong can be covered with other cards. Want to slow down the opponent by making him choose between developing his board and attacking you? Elephant Grass does this twice as well. Fearing a large swarm of Empty the Warrens dorks? Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm can handle them pre-emptively, and Elephant Grass, Ensnaring Bridge and Moment's Peace can handle them once they're on the battlefield. You could also still run Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. It's still a fantastic card...but it just feels unnecessary.
I love Venser, Shaper Savant but like 203995014 said, he's only really strong in a couple of matchups. He's actually way stronger against us than he is for us: I know Miracles is an easy matchup, but do not underestimate the power of Venser bouncing one of your lands every turn with the help of a Karakas. Don't get cute: if you let it happen, the odds of you winning go way, way down.
Obstinate Baloth is really strong against discard and Burn, and that's about it. Even saying that, if Burn is running Skullcrack, Baloth goes from good to "I wish this was basically anything else". Be smart with your cantrips and use Pithing Needle on the small number of threats heavy discard decks have.
And one more time, to re-iterate: play tight. Play smart. Even against Miracles, if you're careless or if the deck craps the bed, they are very much capable of beating you.
-----
And on the lighter side, one last thing. I just got these yesterday and wanted to show them off. I've been telling my play group that Wastelanding one of these would be like killing a unicorn:
Last edited by Zotmaster; 05-28-2014 at 11:52 PM.
Great art mods! Love extensions.
Glad to see Moment's Peace is getting the love it deserves in this deck!
About Karn, I have to say i didn't have the occasion to test it lately (expecially because i'm constantly not attending any legacy tournament in favor of more mundane things) but i'm perplexed about him, don't you think it may turn out as a pretty overcosted vindicate most of the times?
From what i see, the occasions Rock told it was awesome where when he had no way to send the big guys into the red zone due to an Ensnaring Bridge or the battlefield was scarcely crowded. Against a deck like Jund i honestly think it can't pull its weight, where you would end exiling a Tarmogoyf or so and then losing your planeswalker to a couple of little dudes. Also, remember that with a Glacial Chasm in play you can protect your planeswalkers from direct damage spells, like Bolt, but not from a direct attack, so crop rotating to get Chasm in hope to safe the life of your cardboard friend from a horde of creatures isn't going to let you go far.
Maybe it's just me, but since I consider Imperial-painter a long, tedious but absolutely easy matchup and i don't mind about opponent's artifacts (MUD exluded, of course) i think i would employ All is Dust instead of Karn, because for the same cc it's a huge blowout immediately. But please feel free to disagree and to motivate your choices.
About Cavern of Souls, I think it deserves a place. You do not always have the luxury to play your only Titan into your opponent Fow and live to tell and it is also a wasteland magnet for any blue opponent, for they cannot really allow your Titan to stick. Last but not least, most people do not expect it, so if you crop rotate in their eot with already 6 mana in play, they have a lose-lose option: use their counterspells on crop rotation, freeing the way for your titan the very next turn, or let cavern of souls sticks, making their spells useless.
Thank you alot!! I will test these days all things u write. Last question, how is revoker in sideboard? I think he has narrow uses.Long post ahead because I wanted to cover a bunch of things. If your idea of "TL;DR" is more than a few sentences, move along ;)
Thanks for the information, Rock. Maybe I'm weird, but like I said: I find siding in to be easy, but siding out to be difficult.
I'll take a stab at some of these questions too, as I feel a little better equipped in this category.
Cavern of Souls comes in and out of my lists and ultimately I feel like it falls into the "good but not great" category. One thing I've noticed is that I almost never tutor for it. The fact that it can only situationally produce colored mana is a huge downside. Sometimes you'll only have one colored source to play with anyway, and if that colored source is Cavern it means you can't Crop Rotation, Show and Tell, or even Brainstorm. If I'm tutoring, it is almost always to either ramp, gain life, or get access to colored mana. Cavern is none of those.
I may be the only one, but I maintain that Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is just plain better than Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre for a number of reasons. First, he's cheaper. I have counted a larger-than-you'd-expect number of instances where that one mana was the difference between casting an Eldrazi and wishing I was casting an Eldrazi. Second, he's larger. While swinging with an Eldrazi usually means you've won anyway, it doesn't always, and sometimes an extra damage here or there adds up. Kozilek and Ulamog are also Swords to Plowshares magnets, and an extra two life could even represent another upkeep payment of Glacial Chasm. Third, the fact that Ulamog is indestructible is almost irrelevant. The only removal spell I've ever had played against me that handles Kozilek and not Ulamog is Maelstrom Pulse. Finally, Ulamog's cast trigger, while powerful, is also redundant. With patient play, Repeal, Krosan Grip, Karn Liberated, Karakas or sweepers (if you're running any) will get rid of the problem card. There is no Legacy-viable card in all of Magic that does what Kozilek's trigger does for you. You can even cast Kozilek into a Standstill and barely care at all.
I don't have 400+ dollars to spend on a single card, so I'm theorycrafting, but I don't think The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is necessary anymore with where the deck has been evolved. Right now, we're running lots of abilities that function as pseudo-removal as it is. While it is tutorable, all the places where Tabernacle is strong can be covered with other cards. Want to slow down the opponent by making him choose between developing his board and attacking you? Elephant Grass does this twice as well. Fearing a large swarm of Empty the Warrens dorks? Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm can handle them pre-emptively, and Elephant Grass, Ensnaring Bridge and Moment's Peace can handle them once they're on the battlefield. You could also still run Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. It's still a fantastic card...but it just feels unnecessary.
I love Venser, Shaper Savant but like 203995014 said, he's only really strong in a couple of matchups. He's actually way stronger against us than he is for us: I know Miracles is an easy matchup, but do not underestimate the power of Venser bouncing one of your lands every turn with the help of a Karakas. Don't get cute: if you let it happen, the odds of you winning go way, way down.
Obstinate Baloth is really strong against discard and Burn, and that's about it. Even saying that, if Burn is running Skullcrack, Baloth goes from good to "I wish this was basically anything else". Be smart with your cantrips and use Pithing Needle on the small number of threats heavy discard decks have.
And one more time, to re-iterate: play tight. Play smart. Even against Miracles, if you're careless or if the deck craps the bed, they are very much capable of beating you.
-----
And on the lighter side, one last thing. I just got these yesterday and wanted to show them off. I've been telling my play group that Wastelanding one of these would be like killing a unicorn:
I have a few specific questions:
1) why do you side Phyrexian revoker in against Reanimator? He stops only Griselbrand draw 7 and lotus petals, but if Gris hits the battlefield early can win without drawing a card, and by the time you can cast revoker petals have almost lost value. Maybe your plan is to deny Griselbrand ability so that you can search for karakas without fear of counters? Am I right?
2) Why mindbreak trap against counterbalance?
3) Why mindbreak trap against elves? It's true that they play many spells in a turn so you'll end up casting it for free, but the spells you really want to stop are glimpse and natural order, both of which are played before getting the discount on MBT. In a glimpse turn, even if counter their craterhoof/zenith/natural order they're likely to represent a nearly lethal board for the next turn.
Thank you!
Ignorance is strength
Against reanimator if u just revoke griselbrand u can just win with karacas. Cause without the griselbrand draws he gets out of gas and is not so able to entomb and reanimate so many times for value and or counter all ur responses after a grisel is landed.
Yes, that's what I wrote too. But Reanimator players will often favor some kind of shroud guy, like inkwell leviathan, over griselbrand for this true reason.
Ignorance is strength
Then I just dont care about a 7/11 that i can just stop with moments peace or glacial chasm.
That may be true, but it depends on how fast they are, if you draw your answers, ecc.. .
My point about Revoker against Reanimator is that it only stops Griselbrand draw 7, which is nice, don't misunderstand me, but it does nothing about that deck strategy itself, which is killing you fast with big monsters cheated into play.
I know that this deck already has some circumstantial answers in crop rotation/map->karakas or crop rotation->bojuka bog, so maybe revoker is sided in as a supplement to those strategies, while other more effective cards (like surgical extraction) didn't make to the side because maybe too narrow.
I was asking about this basically.
Ignorance is strength
The big issue is that in reanimator you aren't going to come back from a griselbrand draw 7, too many counters. You can handle the fatties (tyrant isn't very easy to come back though), so in making griselbrand a 7/7 lifelink, you turn the game plan into the same plan you have against goyfs. If you don't proactively shut off griz, you are relying solely on crop-bog, preventing any monster from entering at all - add show and tell into the mix and you're in a bad spot.
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