Everyone's been in that situation once before.Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
It's a 2/1, not a 2/3 though.
Hey guys! Been following the thread now for a while, you're all doing some good work here. Arianrhod, I especially like the innovations you're working on lately. Keep it up!
As for me, I finally put together BUG Pod, and it looks like this:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
- 22 Lands -
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thragtusk
- 18 Creatures -
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
- 20 Spells -
The Sideboard is still way up in the air; still unsure how to address the combo MUs.
As for initial impression, JTMS is totally sick - he is the perfect swiss army knife for the deck IMO. Depending on how Garruk fares I might just want to up him to 3 copies.
Is there a consensus on the number of Lands we should be running? I feel like as long as Deed is in the deck I always want to be hitting my land drops. Might be a bit prone to flood, but Explorer does a good job of pulling your basics out anyway.
Things I'm unsure of:
Deciever Exarch - having some trouble finding a decent 3 drop for the chain, figured the ability to bounce right up to cmc4 with Pod adds a lot of value. Still, Finks might be better here, but there isn't a lot of aggro in my meta and frankly we should crush aggro anyway.
Entomber Exarch - Seems really good, actually, surprised no one is trying him out yet. Tons of value + flexibility vs control, and some playability v combo if you live that long :P Requires further testing to be sure, but I like that its a 4 drop with with a ETB ability that I can be happy podding away right after.
I feel like I want another 5 drop of some kind; possibly even just another Thragtusk. Acidic Slime is looking good though, and could probably take the place of the Wickerbough Elder. I like that you can run out the elder ahead of them getting Batterskull or whatever down and threatening instant-speed removal while delivering pressure. Ofc, I could just run both in this crazy Equipment meta...
And then, there's Grave Titan. He's not in my list atm as I haven't found the one I thought I had, but I'm honestly unsure whether he actually NEEDS to be there. Most of the time I'd be happy enough with a Tusk in a race, and there are few situations when we'll be able to pod into him. That being said, he is a Big Mean Zombie Machine.
Thoughts? Recommendations?
@MrShine
Just a couple of points of constructive criticism:
Your list seems very light at the three-drop slot, which means your Pod chains might fizzle more frequently. You can probably drop a land for something like Kitchen Finks, since Persist is awesome with Pod and because I think most lists have only been running 21 lands.
At the four drop slot, I'd lose Entomber Exarch for Murderous Redcap. Again, Persist is awesome and because you can kill a creature or do damage to a Planeswalker with it, you probably want to be able chain into it.
On Grave Titan: I don't think Thragtusk is big enough to be at the peak of your Pod chain. Grave Titan is huge and can bring you back from a losing position. It's also very, very important against swarm decks like Goblins.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
The land counts for Nic Fit versions is really interesting to consider.
21:
Pod versions -- 4 DRS + 4 Veteran + relatively low mana requirements comparatively speaking (Pod does much of the heavy lifting as opposed to 'casting' things.
22:
GBW versions -- 4 Veteran + 2 Sakura-Tribe is fairly stock for most pseudo Rector/Thune/rock/whatever decks
23:
Punishing Fire versions -- I think? PFire likes having a lot of lands because it lets you PFire more often, and they usually run a lot of utility lands.
Jace Control / Superfriends versions -- also I think, not certain. Land drops for planeswalkers, plus they usually run Brainstorm to shuffle away extra copies of resolved walkers.
24:
Scapewish -- 4 Veteran + 2 Sakura-Tribe + 2 Wood Elves -- primary wincon is based around having 7-8 lands in play, plus manabase has stringent requirements between Vet and Valakut.
Just an interesting observation in that the number of lands you're running in Nic Fit varies tremendously based on what you're trying to do.
Yeah, I was a little worried about the 3 drops. cutting a land for one was my first instinct, I kinda just threw it together without checking to see what the consensus was on how many land to run. Finks will be a placeholder for the moment.
I'm going to keep testing Entomber Exarch; I think it has versatility but Redcap may just be better to off a SFM or Jace or what have you.
Do you guys feel like 19 creatures is too few? Somehow it worries me a bit. Generally it just seems like there's just too much to fit into the deck :P
@ Arianhod - I think the land count discussion is an interesting one. I'm running 3x Deed for now (very good in my meta) and I definitely want to be getting enough land to play + crack in one turn, and hopefully even enough to play around soft counters too. More testing!
I'd recommend 22 lands and at least 20 creatures in a pod list. I've never tried it with less than 22 (and a green sun's zenith so 23 really). The 3 slot is definitely the weak point in the chain, but I've found finks to be satisfactory. For 5 drops, I've liked Shriekmaw because of the capacity for it to be evoked early.
Jace is a good card and has a lot of synergy with your own creatures, since you can bounce them and get their enter the battlefield triggers again. But it is hard to find space for all the creatures I think are needed for Pod to function if the space is occupied by other cards. There's a tension - the spells are much more powerful individually, but you need the synergy of the creatures for the deck to fully function as a pod deck.
Hey, I've been running Punishing Jund on MTGO to some decent sucess, but there are some things I'd like to change but I'm not sure what
The list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
I would like to find room for another abrupt decay in the mainboard. I also find that my GSZ aren't very good early if I don't want a veteran explorer. I have been having problems with shardless bug and esper stoneblade, mainly with Jace. I usually don't bring in all 4 ReBs since it doesn't have that many targets, is that a mistake or is there some other cards I could have to help those matchups.
You know, eventually WotC is going to print an Acidic Slime variant that can kill planeswalkers (noncreature permanent?) and all of our Jace problems will disappear overnight.
Keep in mind that I'm not a Punishing player, but I can still give some general thoughts.
I don't like the miser's Thoughtseize. I think that would be better served as your 3rd Decay that you wanted. I also don't like the 4th Top. I see Top plenty / too much as a 3-of, and I think that as a 4-of you're just going to be drowning in Tops. I would probably bump that into the 4th Punishing Fire, which should help a little with your Jace problem.
Punishing Fit is a very, very controlling version -- your early Green Suns are always going to be kind of ass in that build. Green Sun is basically how you find your finisher, with a few toolbox utility options along the way. Don't go into it with the mindset of "I'm Maverick, I have every GSZ option ever invented." You'll just be disappointed. Generally speaking you want 1-2 Explorers in the early game, and then beyond that just hold your Zeniths for higher-impact cards at choice moments when you have control of the game. Don't feel compelled to use GSZ as soon as you draw it.
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So, I was trolling around on Gatherer the other day, and I found an interesting card: Crack the Earth. I'm not sure that it's necessarily WORTH the exploration, but I remember around two years ago there was a chain of discussion about a Naya Explorer build that used Punishing Fire to simulate Cabal Therapy. Crack the Earth seems like a much better option for this -- it opens up RUG and Naya as potential Nic Fit combinations.
My thoughts immediately went to two specific cards with two different build paths in mind: Animar, Soul of Elements and Riku of Two Reflections. Animar's protections are absolutely laughably good in legacy (pro Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay? fuck yea), and anyone who's played with or against an EDH deck with either Animar or Riku as a general knows the bullshit that those two cards are capable of.
I don't have any lists in mind at this point, but it's definitely something that's worth considering. Yes, Therapy with Explorer is backbreaking -- but really, how many decks are going to be happy with t1 Explorer -> t2 Crack -- especially if they don't run basics. Likely either eats their 1-drop creature or their land...either way it's a beating.
Hello all! I'm baaaack!
Unfortunately haven't had much chance to post in here in recent months. Life has been happening. But here I am!
Hasselbalch I'm very surprised that those matchups are giving you a hard time as those are traditionally very good matchups especially for the p-fire version. The fires do tons of work in those matchups especially in keeping Jace in check. If those are problematic for you, then play the 4th p-fire. The 3rd decay will definitely help you out with shardless too since goyf is literally the only card that should matter. I would cut the singleton thoughtseize and 4th top for those changes in your list.
22 is like just the edge where I'd want to be. I often think about making a cut of a creature to get to the 22nd land, but feel marginally comfortable with 21 lands. It's definitely a "how aggressively to you want to find lands" sort of deck at that point and time, because you are indeed playing less Veteran Explorers, but, it gives you better draws late in the game. I cut the 4th Explorer a while ago because I felt the 4th DRS was better, and I actually am pretty sure on that one. Clogged up with 1 drops isn't necessarily great, even with Pod out, because while your best card in a lot of situations is Baleful Strix, those times you don't have an active pod, they're rarely good. It's where the GSZ makes sense, but you also want to naturally draw your DRS and VE's early, and reducing their count on the order of GSZ doesn't do the trick.
Reiterating the 3 drop spot, it's definitely the hardest to find good cards to put it. Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, Thassa, Pestermite, Trinket Mage, Man-o-war, Uktabi Orangutan, Edric Spymaster, Bone Shredder/Fleshbag Marauder and Wood Elves are pretty much the only decent pieces to the puzzle.
I don't think the 4th top is cuttable. Games that you have a top on turn 1 are so much easier to win than when you don't. And I generally don't have an issue shuffling away extra tops. I would rather have 2-3 tops in my opening hand than 0.
Hey all, I've been interested in Nic Fit for awhile and I think I want to go Junk colors(not set on this, however), but I'm not seeing any recent lists. Instead I'm seeing BUG colors. I have the lands for non blue versions, but I don't want to proceed any further if the non blue versions aren't viable any more. What color combinations should I play? My meta has all the Delver variants, Shardless, Reanimator(I don't think this is fixable, no matter the colors), D&T, Elves, Goblins, Miracles, and Jund.
I don't think its a viability issue. I am playing BUG pod right now, but have also played the scapewish variant.
Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and play style to suit preference.
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What does each color variant do? As in when you go Junk, what does it shore up while becoming weaker to? Same with Jund and straight GB?
I'll try to come up with a rough overview tonight or tomorrow morning. To be honest, a lot of it is just preference more than anything else. And it's not so much that different versions are more or less viable as it is that the community here in this thread tends to get fixated on a [topic] and then it rides that [topic] until someone changes to a different [topic2]. We're kind of wonderfully schizo =)
Hey, I've been away for a long long time :P. I am still the only one playing the rector version? lol
Quick comparison from my experience:
Scapewish Nic Fit: stomps any fair deck, and can win via combo quickly against stalled board states... Or just outta nowhere. Great burning wish toolbox.
BUG Pod: slight help against combo with FOW outta the board. Pod is slow... But once online it's nuts... And offers a creature toolbox. Blue gives you access to some great creatures: aetherling, sower of temptations, glen...Archmage,baleful strix, notion thief and llawan (both SB in mine)
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Last edited by Ish; 06-03-2014 at 08:11 AM. Reason: additions
More importantly, the draw of BUG being the access to Brainstorm and Jace, The Mind Sculptor. With so many 1-ofs in the deck multiple sources of card selection is ridiculously good. Jace is also an alternate wincon that some decks can't deal with effectively. And yes, better anti-combo options post-side.
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What are all your thoughts on Snapcaster Mage? Seems good w/ Decay + Brainstorm, we don't run RIP, and it gets us extra utility out of Flusterstorms or whatever out of the board... We certainly should have enough mana to run it, anyway.
Here's how I would catalogue each major variant:
BG -- Highest consistency of all variants by virtue of 2-color. Runs extra discard, usually in the form of Hymn, primary anti-fair plan is Primeval -> 2x Treetop Village or Primeval -> Volrath + PhyTower. Pretty light on combo hate since it stays strictly GB, but can steal games with discard + Surgical/Extirpate effects. Most likely of all variants, I'd say, to beat graveyard combo decks. Weakest overall average fair.dec matchup in my opinion -- it has a plan, but that plan is very attritiony and gives the opponent a lot of time to react to it and solve it.
Scapewish -- Crushes fair.dec, but is relatively unstable despite my best efforts and can give up match% to anything randomly. Has a 1-card combo which can enable free wins or wins out of nowhere, stealing victory from the jaws of defeat. Has access to Slaughter Games, which is arguably the best anti-combo card that Nic Fit can run, and typically runs 3 of them between main and side thanks to the extra ramp spells present in the maindeck. Can never beat graveyard combo, but is pretty strong against Show and Tell and ANT. Has a reasonable creature backup plan, and is somewhat customizable. Scape is also one of the most explored and tuned versions of Nic Fit, with thousands of dollars in winnings over two years across multiple pilots.
Punishing -- Another long-standing, well-developed version. PFire is arguably the hardest control of all of the Nic Fit family, running a host of spot removal and sweep main with complements in the sideboard to tune for specific matchups. Arguably has the strongest Elves matchup of the family. HoneyT swore by this version for vs combo decks of all varieties, but I think that it actually has somewhat of a weaker matchup vs fair.dec because it is suppppppppper grindy and slow. Like, its wincons are typically a Thrun and Punishing your face. This version fell off a bit since True-Name came out, since it can't really easily kill the critter and, as aforementioned, it struggles with killing the opponent (which is usually our backup plan to if we can't kill the TNN). That being said, it does get to play Liliana of the Veil for free courtesy of Punishing Fire, which is a significant point in its favor.
BUG Planeswalkers -- The McDarby special. This version is pretty balanced, I'd say, and is a good choice for longer tournaments where it's an unknown meta. The planeswalkers provide significant raw power, and the deck has more than enough spot removal / sacrifice effects to solve basically any creature-based wincon. It also sports a fairly significant countersuite. The danger of this version is that it's pretty linear, and doesn't really have any quality backup plans. McDarby's list runs 4 Veteran 1 Baleful Strix as the only creatures, which makes you lean on the planeswalkers super hard. Not running Thragtusk and company makes Burn significantly more dangerous, too. I would personally opt for something like my Cryptic BUG list over his planeswalker control, but that's more because, as a pilot/designer, I would rather have backup plans. This deck is probably the most 'powerful' of the BUG lists in terms of raw strength, but it lacks flex and tech.
BUG Pod -- The best-performing list on the big-scene, with 1 (2?) GP top 16 and either the same or one more SCG top 8/16s. The exact opposite of BUG Planeswalkers -- this deck is wildly nonlinear, with branching decision trees that can answer basically any situation courtesy of its extreme toolbox. The best Glen Elendra Archmage list, which is significant because that card is a beating. Overall, BUG Pod is a very promising deck, but as with any Pod list is extremely challenging to play and build/tune correctly. It can be tuned to beat almost anything, but whether or not you match up your tuning with what you actually play in an event is kind of a crapshoot.
Rector Rock -- Probably the oldest list that's still functional. GB is tied for longevity, but sees little play these days. Rector's biggest issue is that it's kind of a moneybags deck -- most of its power comes from Academy Rector and the attending toolbox, but when the attending toolbox includes things like Moat, Nether Void, and The Abyss, it's an issue for most legacy players (let alone anyone new to the format). Rector Rock runs the most spot removal of any non-PFire version, and typically runs either the Archangel of Thune / Spike Feeder combo, or just goes beatdown with Baneslayer Angels and Elspeth, Knight Errants.
Junk Pod -- The other Pod deck. This one plays a lot like Melira Pod from modern, and typically involves a lot of the same cards. Some are all-stars, like Orzhov Pontiff, while some others are meta-calls and thus can be questionable depending on your pairings on the day. Basically everything that was said about the BUG Pod deck is also applicable here, except that it has a worse combo matchup at the tradeoff of having a better fair matchup (Junk Pod gets to run Stoneforge Mystic but can't run Glen Elendra Archmage). Your combo plan basically comes down to hatebears like Thalia, Canonist, Mindcensor, et al, which unfortunately combo decks tend to be prepared for since it's a common line to attack them by. You can hybridize a Rector package into the deck, which shores up some of its combo issues, but attaches a significant money problem to the deck.
This isn't including the other, more experimental builds such as Cryptic BUG or theoreticals like Jund Pod which -should- exist but, to my knowledge, nobody has spent any time on yet. This also (obviously) doesn't include the theoretical RUG or Naya builds that are possible with Crack the Earth.
Here's the list of experimentals/theoreticals that I / others have in the oven brewing at the moment:
GB Scapeshift (Ob Nixilis)
GB turboramp (Culling the Weak)
Jund Pod (Ruric Thar and Sire of Insanity? yes pls; Olivia Voldaren & FTK)
Flat Jund (control jund with no pfire but with Rakdos Returns et al)
Cryptic BUG (eternal command styled deck with a planeswalker suite and 8 maindeck counterspells)
Deadeye BUG (this floats around on the edge of being really good...uses Deadeye Nav and ETB creatures for intense value + combos)
Spirit Junk (aka Kamigawa block constructed. Kirins are grossly powerful, Karador is a spirit and plays well with Iname, Death Aspect, etc)
Legendary Junk (Sisay / Time of Need-oriented)
RUG Animar (probably uses Food Chain / Griffin / FoW alongside Animar, eldrazi, mulldrifters, etc)
RUG Riku (might be a better Deadeye version)
Naya X (no idea where to go with this. like, what does Naya even do? I'm sure there's something, I just dunno what)
5c Pod (the best creatures from every color, multiple combos and pod chains, rainbow lands, whatever sideboard we want)
Basically different versions have differing places on the combo/fair.dec slidebar with regards to both how they function and what they can beat. The Animar RUG list is probably one of the most exciting to me, since you get two combos, a solid beatdown plan, a disgusting lategame, and a ton of disruption all built-in to the deck. I'm always looking for the 'next big thing'. Scapewish is my 'main' competitive deck, but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily the best Nic Fit that could ever exist. There's always new possibilities lurking around every corner -- it's just a matter of exploring (pun intended) the archetype and finding something that works for you.
From a pure spike perspective there are different Nic Fits that could be used for different purposes, but you'll be much better served to find one that really works for you and master it, in my opinion. I've warned new players to the archetype before (and will do so again) that it takes upwards of one year to actually start seeing consistent results with Nic Fit, regardless of which version you adopt. Nic Fit is a ludicrously challenging deck to master, but it brings with it the satisfaction that you get to play stuff that nobody else does. And, to me, there's no feeling quite like having your opponent exclaim WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT and reach to read it as you slam some random cube/EDH staple on them and proceed to molest them with it.
IMO: Snapcaster is situationally great, whereas Baleful Strix is always good. I prefer Baleful Strix. The flying deathtouch can also matter sometimes... I love the little owl against DnT.
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