I talked about it before a few pages back, but only got miserable answers comparing it to Razormane Masticore and the 3rd Entreat.Originally Posted by princeofperasia
As i wrote, i like it alot vs decks that lead to grindy games, where i need a house that shoots Planeswalker and creatures EVERY turn if you want to.
It helps alot vs Shardless BUG and the mirror, where i never really liked the 3rd Entreat and i haven't looked back since i swapped the SB Entreat for Keranos.
Recently i also found it is reasonable to bring him in against Death and Taxes, because you don't need much setup to crush them after a boardwipe.
One thing you should do if you play Keranos is to add a basic Mountain somewhere in your 75, as you really need to rely on red.
Switching a Volc for a Mountain works fine for me, as it also allows me to play 4 Blasts postboard. I really recommend it.
True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Let me first agree on some of your points: Yes, I'm on the 2 Ponder train like you, and I have no intention to get off this train.
As to the E.T. vs 4th CB. In MU you want CB, a lot of them are combos. However, you don't always want to expose yourself when you play CB too early. Hence, I don't see the card disadvantage as an issue, because you are not going to want to play CB or E.T. at that point anyway.
The only time I would want to play CB and the card disadvantage can be an issue is the loam match-up. Even then, E.T.'s so-called card disadvantage can be a plus, if you already have CB in play and no Top. Being able to instant search the correct CMC in respond to the CB flip trigger is something you can be happy about.
Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?
First of all, against tribal decks, Ein's list (the one with Ponders) will do better. Against Goblins, you have to immediately Entreat after a Terminus/Verdict. You cannot allow Goblins too many turns to "rebuild" after a mass removal. Both decks can have trappy/tricky SB: I have seen TNN, Standstill, and Flusterstorm from Merfolk; Thalia, Labyrinth, and Anarchy from Goblin. Some Vial deck players would activate-vial as a fake move, I guess they're trying to make you draw Top.
They're hard matchups for sure since your counters are soft to Cavern of Souls. Focus on stopping Aether Vial and survive long enough to start generating card advantage through Jace or set up an entreat that can swing the board state in your favor. Merfolk is definitely the easier of the two though since you have access to REB and their creatures are generally lords whereas Goblins tend to generate CA (ringleader/matron/etc.) making it more difficult.
Congrats on your finish! Seems like you won the tough matchups and lost the easy ones unfortunately. I would absolutely board out all 4 FOWs against any of the delver lists. They don't really have any cards that I would want to 1-for-2 myself, especially when our sideboard is so strong. Against UWR and RUG, your main goal is surviving long enough to safely resolve CounterTop. This obviously requires playing around their soft counters or baiting them out by playing 1-for-1 removal into pierces and dazes. Once you have CounterTop online, you have all the time in the world to dig for your win-con so I usually do shave 1 Entreat and 1 Jace. BUG delver, on the other hand, only plays Daze so you can easily play around that knowledge and you should actually bring in the 3rd Entreat. Based on this list from Schönegger I sideboard:
UWR Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
+1 Clique
+2 Blast (if you're playing a basic Mountain, then bring in more)
+1 Disenchant
+2 EE
(If you don't think they bring in most of their Meddling Mages then -2 Snares, +2 Fluster)
RUG Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
-2 Snare
+2 RIP
+2 EE
+2 Clique
+2 Fluster
BUG Delver
-4 FOW
-3 Counterbalance
+2 EE
+1 Disenchant
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterspell
+X Clique (if they play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Fluster (If they don't play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Blasts (If there's TNN or Jace)
Thanks for your replies ThoSha and Marcus! I think I'll test out a Keranos, as well as switching a Volcanic to a Mountain. I'm sure Einherjer will show up and tell me that's a terrible idea, but I'm curious how the god plays out.
This is off-topic from everything else that's been discussed, but I've been wanting to play a third graveyard hate card (I play two RIP currently). While normal convention dictate that I should play a Relic in the third spot, I've been wondering if a Surgical Extraction would have any merit in the list especially alongside 3 Snapcaster Mages. While it's not as powerful against Dredge, it can still severely slow them down by hitting Narcomoeba or Ichorid. It's also a bit more flexible as you can justify bringing in Surgical against any Combo matchup and maybe against the mirror (to hit FOW or Jace etc.). Obviously it's terrible against any fair match though...
I've always preferred Entreat in the American MU over the BUG MU actually. Sure American has more soft counters, but BUG is more likely to be boarding stuff like Envelop, Clique, and Flusterstorm which I think are harder to play around. If you can play around Pierce then it shouldn't be hard to resolve Entreat against American and even two Angels can usually race any board they have since they have no good way of removing them. BUG Delver has more tools for stopping Entreat and more ways of making non-lethal Entreats obsolete with Abrupt Decay and Liliana.
My plan involves boarding in the third Entreat for American Delver and sticking with the two MD Entreats against BUG Delver. I could be wrong about the third Entreat against American, perhaps its better to leave in the Counterspell instead, but I'm certain that going down to one is wrong.
Also, as a side note, I used to bring in Flusterstorms against BUG Delver, but since Miracles has become more popular, most BUG lists are running specific Miracle hate like Clique and Envelop. As a result, I think REB (over Flusterstorm) is usually correct against the average BUG Delver list now.
Some even play 1 Jace in their sideboard, but Clique is indeed very common. So I also side in 2 out of 3 blasts ^^!
Alright I can see the reasoning for not wanting to bring in the 3rd Entreat against BUG and that might be the better sideboard plan than what I had, but I have a hard time seeing the justification in bringing in the 3rd Entreat against UWR when they play even more countermagic than BUG will have. UWR will have something like 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 3-4 Pierces, 2 Flusterstorms which is still a lot more to play around than BUG's 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 1 Clique, 1-2 Pierces (or flusters). I haven't seen too many BUG lists that play Envelop in the board.
Maybe that's right, but remember that American has virtually no way to remove an Angel token. While you may have to play around more counter magic, it's fine to Entreat for only two and that will probably be enough. Against BUG, if you Entreat for less than lethal, you can likely expect an Angel or two to get eaten by Abrupt Decay or Liliana. Also, Counterbalance is very reliable against American and once it's online their Pierces become pretty awful. That said, I've definitely thought about having a Counterspell or Pithing Needle over the third Entreat but Entreat is by no means a bad card against American.
Some great, collaborative discussion in this thread lately. Thanks to all for that.
My issue with going to 3 Entreat, 4 Terminus against Delver decks is that you can open with so many bad hands. e.g. Terminus, Entreat, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Fetch, Tundra, Plains...is this a keep? Brainstorm says yes, but once they G. Probe you they will Force your Brainstorm and likely win. Resolving a Jace to set up Terminus/Entreat is also very very difficult during the stage of the game when it is most critical.
Turns 1-3 are so critical in the UWR and RUG matchups and Probe gives them an even greater edge. Sequencing your lands, fetches, and spells while weighing the tradeoff of life loss vs playing around conditional counters are essential. (Personally, I also need to get better at recognizing when jamming a Swords into Daze might be correct as a pure tempo play while I set up my mana.) For these reasons, I have thought about reducing the average CMC of the deck in the post-board games against Delver/Wasteland strategies. Venser, Jace, Entreat all get trimmed or cut (this is easier to do if you have won G1). I'm also thinking of going to 3 Counterbalance post-board against RUG and UWR. They are a huge part of your gameplan but you'd rather have removal in the earlier turns of the game. Then find and resolve a Counterbalance mid-game and win.
On grave hate, I have been thinking of Grafdigger's Cage as the third piece like I believe Joe mentioned a few pages back, especially since I have cut EE from the sideboard and slightly weakened the elves matchup. Though I may be overreacting after getting smashed by Dredge.
@Third entreat
I haven't been playing the third entreat since I moved to sideboard SFM-package but when I did I sided it in versus Delver-decks with black rather than red. The slower clock your opponent has the better it becomes... Against RUG-delver for example Im happy playing 2 and versus jund/team america I want my third for sure.
@Patriot sideboarding
I think you all should consider siding CB out versus Patriot. I wrote about that earlier but can't seem to find the post :(
I remove 4 fow 4 cb 1 jace for blasts, wear/tear, sfm-package and 2 flexslots.
@new tech!
Im going to play without the stoneforge package in this daily and instead trying to push the durdliest of durdle; Future Sight.
Not only is this totally ridiculous with top (and slow as molasses, sure) it's also a way to activate Keranos with only cb/jace/venser/clique. I'll write a summary after im done.
Talking about Tech.. I am currently testing 2 Personal Tutors in the main for more consistent miracles. I also added one Devastation Tide in the side, i'll let you guys know how it worked out.
Edit: It was really bad. Might be good as a 1of tough.
Last edited by ThoSha; 05-29-2014 at 05:33 PM.
True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter
At least keranos has some utility. But personal tutor?
I' m not an arse licker but I can't see if there is still room for improvement in the list of this deck.
Keranos cost 5 mana and I think is a lot for a winning condition that you have to play it as a sorcery speed( yes you cant miracle eot like entreat).
Jace is way better than the god. We don't need extra removal our deck is well equipped to deal with that.
Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?
My personal opinion
in order:
12 posts 10/90
goblins 30/70
Sneak & show 40/60
Merfolk 40/60
Jund 45/55
Bug delver(with nemesis and confidants) 50/50
Death and Taxes(with mangara) 50/50
Uwr Delver 55/45
I've found pretty much all other match ups highly favorable my a mile
I added in my comments, but otherwise I agree. Those are definitely the harder matchups. Some other tougher ones are Shardless bug (50/50) and Scapewish (55/45). I have also found Grixis/BURg delver with Pyromancer, Therapys and stifles to be rough.
I have noticed SB blood moon, moat, and humility in conjuncture with 1-2 Etutor make all of those matchups (excpet D&T and delver) much better. If the meta ever shifts to include more of those decks, and less things like delver or D&T where you just need value and consistency, the Etutor package might be worth including again.
The Sneak & Show matchup varies a lot depending on your build. If you play the legend build with Venser and 2 Karakas, it's a pretty positive matchup in my experience. I wouldn't call it negative with any build really, I would call it an even match at worst.
12post is obviously the worst matchup, but it can be improved with extra Pithing Needles and aggressive mulligans. Tons of counter magic with a quick Entreat or Clique + Karakas is your only hope really.
In other news, I took Ein's maindeck -1 fetch +1 Karakas to the local on Wednesday. I went 3-0-1 and split 1st/2nd (no playoffs, just swiss with top4 payout), my matchups were-
Rw Painter 1-1-1
Ub Reanimator 2-1
5 color Maverick 2-0
Deathblade 2-1
The list feels extremely solid and consistent. I never had a problem digging for answers and wincons, and I assembled CB Top very easily. I've found the extra Ponders to make CB more reliable without a Top online, and they make it easier to find key sideboard cards. If I can make it out to SCG Providence I will definitely be on Miracles.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
12 Post is nearly unwinnable and Goblins is extremely difficult. Merfolk and Burn are both winnable but very much a pain and matchups that I'd rather not see. I feel like just about anything else is even or favorable.
Burn seems fine... we have CB and PoP isn't very good vs. us.
Against decks like Storm, we have Counterbalance and it wrecks them, but in addition we can easily beat an all-in combo deck with FoW, Flusterstorm, Counterspell, etc. Against Burn, if you don't have Counterbalance and Top then you can't realistically survive for very long only 1-for-1ing them.
If we have Counterbalance and they don't have a Vexing Shusher then we are golden. If we don't have a Counterbalance, we are probably dead. If we have a Counterbalance and they have a Shusher then we are only dead if we can't find removal.
So, just for fun... I did some math. On average, Burn's cards deal ~2.2 damage (assuming things like Goblin Guide only hits once, PoP only hits for 3, and Vortex only hits us twice, etc). Without Counterbalance + Top, Miracles has only about a 23% chance of stopping one of their cards (4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 1 Counterspell, 1 Snapcaster, and 4 Counterbalance (assuming that each Counterbalance blind flips an average of 1.5 times in a game, which is likely generous). Without interaction, it will take Burn an average of 9 cards to kill us. At 10 cards each, we should be able to stop ~2.3 of their cards. That means that at around 12 cards each we should be dead, so around turn 4 or 5.
Last edited by Dzra; 05-31-2014 at 03:44 AM.
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