I don't think this deck "Can't work" without Wasteland. I probably have close to the most, if not the most, cash finishes with this deck this year. I play two wastelands. And I rarely think they ever do too much. Also, I don't think he ever was too serious about Death's Shadow. Same way I am never serious about Erebos. Local events are noncompetitive and just for fun. Why would I play a real deck at an event where I am paying five dollars to potentially win an Andrew Jackson? Hell, both time's I have played with my Bitterblossom, Erebos, Loxodon Warhammer build I have cashed! Anyway, I don't post often and just saw a lot of no-nonsense negativity that I don't think has much of a spot here in the Deadguy Ale forum. If you want to be a hard ass, go to a forum where people play brainstorm, we obviously aren't the most competitive here. Lol.
Essentially this. I lived the dream of scavenging a deaths shadow on Varolz equipped with a SoFaI and attacked a stoneblade opponent for 19. Doubt I will ever replicate that feat.Originally Posted by MBSegal
So, I've got my first big legacy tournamet in a couple of weeks and even though I'm not playing brainstorm I've been trying to tune my list a bit. I expect a pretty varied meta, since we only have big opens every 3 or 4 months and ton of people that don't regularly play the format show up, sometimes you can even find people playing barely modified Modern deck too.
Currently this is where I'm at:
4 Dark Confidant 4 Verdant Catacombs 1 Ethersworn Canonist 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Marsh Flats 2 Rest in Peace 4 Stoneforge Mystic 2 Arid Mesa 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 2 Phyrexian Revoker 4 Wasteland 1 Enlightened Tutor 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth 3 Scrubland 1 Grafdigger's Cage 3 Lingering Souls 1 Isolated Chapel 1 Pithing Needle 1 Bayou 2 Disenchant 3 Liliana of the Veil 2 Swamp 2 Zealous Persecution 4 Swords to Plowshares 1 Plains 1 Perish 2 Vindicate 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Disfigure 1 Humility 4 Thoughtseize 2 Hymn to Tourach 1 Batterskull 1 Sword of Fire and Ice 1 Umezawa's Jitte
(I'm pretty new here, but I'm guessing there's a better way to post a decklist, right?)
I consider the 2 revokers, 2 Spirits and Disfigure flex slots and I'm not sure if they are the right choice.
I've been liking the revokers, they help against LED decks and almost always there's something for them to name, so I'm leaning towards keeping them in.
I haven't casted the Spirits as much, but I haven't hated them. Almost every deck except D&T runs cantrips, and it even hits random stuff like Sylvan Library. I like that they do a ton in the Shardless matchup since they usually beat me by just drawing a ton of cards. I'm not sure yet how much Shardless there's gonna be though, and I'm wondering if they are worth it if I don't expect to face any.
The disfigure is kinda random and I'm pretty sure it's wrong to play it here. I had Shriekmaw in it's place but seemed too cute, and also didnt hit Deathrite and Bob. This of course doesn't hit Goyf, which is probably even worse.
I'm considering running an Inquisition of Kozilek or a Cabal Therapy in it's place, but I don't want to go overboard with the discard. The fourth Lingering Souls is another option, but I'm not sure if it's the best.
I've played around with Aven Mindcensor and I found the flash to be nice, but it usually comes down pretty late and I haven't find it's ability too good if I'm behind.
I've also tried a single Stillmoon Cavallier and while it has won me games, I felt it often didn't do much. I'll probably come back to this one at some point though, since the protection seems very good.
Regarding the sideboard, I want to include something to help against Miracles since I expect to see at least a moderate amount of it. I think I'll take out the Explosives for a Choke, since others have found it good, works with E Tutor and it seems reasonably good against most blue decks too.
I'm still not that experienced with the deck nor the format, so comments and recommendations are more than welcomed.
I like Disfigure as it kills deathrite, bob, stoneforge, Bloodbraid and delvers. Saving plows for other targets.
IMHO, I feel wasteland is fairly integral to the deck. In conjunction with Vindicate I've been able to completely destroy a player's manabase.
Having said that, Ghost Quarter + Mindcensor and/or Leonin Arbiter can work. I think in a big tournament in Europe, a Death and Taxes player had Wasteland and Ghost Quarter with Arbiter. And it did really well, at least top 8. You will have to alter the deck. Less Fetchlands and maybe even less Stoneforges (I believe that death and taxes build had 2). I can see Arbiter being really freaking annoying. Not only screwing Fetches, but any tutor effects as well...Green Sun's Zenith, Enlightened Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Transmute Artifact etc.
So that may mean you will have to dig deep into black/white mana sources. Godless Shrine, Isolated Chapel, Fetid Heath etc.
LOL, even though it's a non combo, non Brainstorm deck, it's very competitive. For me it is anyway.
"Only Wilkin can win with this pile"
I agree. Wasteland is probably the best card (imo). I personally wouldnt play without it, but to each his own. Segal, you obviously have had a lot of success without the full set, so it can be done. Will anybody be testing the new Will of the Council?
Edit: Yeah Arbiter seems interesting, though that would probably require a VERY different build.
You are right. The build would be very very different.
Our deck has B as is primary color. If mana-denial was picked as the main strategy, primary color would shift to W.
In that build, aribiter, mindcensor, revoker and even Thalia would work well. The deck may looks like... "Death and taxes with Bob".
BTW: That build could not be a "budget choice". Wastelands are must, Port and Quarter may be also needed. What is the price of Port today?
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
130~? Usd
Wasteland is fine. I don't speak in extremes. When I say I may cut a Dark Confidant, that does not mean I am cutting them all as you guys seem to have jumped on a few weeks ago. Same goes for Wasteland. The best cards in this deck are Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Thoughtseize and Liliana. I wouldn't leave home without any less than four in my deck at this point in Legacy. Swords to Plowshares is close as well.
Currently, that Leonin Arbiter idea sounds kind of interesting and is the first idea from this forum I may actually try in an SCG Open. It actually disrupts cards that we want Thalia to stop, without hurting our own cards as much. A little nervous it will harm the Stoneforge Mystic package though. In addition, adding more creatures to my list may not be what I am looking for. Sweet idea though! I played the Leonin Arbiter decks in Modern last year and that card is incredibly efficient and its recent exposure in Legacy is no joke. For the first time since Isolated Chapel, I am quite excited!
Not much of a brewer, but I'll put some work into it next week after I finish up my homework
I think if I were to play it, I'd go the route of Wilkin and play a few chrome mox.
I like your deck. Only some minor thoughts. First of all, Spirit of the Labyrinth has proven to be subpar. I played it in a vialversion of dga where you can exploit its ability even more and it never felt like the bomb I hoped he was. I would drop both or run one in SB. Also, 10 Fetchies are quite a lot. I would drop a Mesa and add a Karakas.
Regarding your sb, of course I donīt know your meta. But Thalia has always been of low worth for me. Often she hurts us at least as much as she hurts the opponent. Especially with those 3 mana non-creature spells we wanna drop early. I would cut one of them. I play a single forest in my deck, thatīs why i can justify green in my sb. Found gaddock teeg and choke to be really awesome from time to time.
I like the list too. SotL is a tough nut to crack. Punishing cantrips can't hurt as so many decks run a ton of them, but sometimes the effect doesn't matter. It's sort of like Aven Mindcensor that way. However it is a 3-power creature which is occasionally relevant, in the same way that AMC being a flash spell is occasionally relevant. I would cut the Chapel and run a Karakas if you have it and another swamp (assuming you don't have the 4th scrub). If you don't have a karakas a plains and a swamp seems fine. I don't think risking chapel-wasteland openers is worth the extra dual since you have a lot of ways to grab basics.
I like running 4 wastelands as it is probably the free-winniest card in our deck and is insane with DRS, especially on the play. But I do think you could get away with less and run more mana-intensive creatures or spells if that's what you prefer. Having a couple for value can't hurt, but those could always be GQs if you're on a budget since you're likely going to be using them to kill annoyances like Tar Pit, Cradle, Maze of Ith, or Tabernacle.
Segal, why do you think SFM is so much more important than Bob? Because it finds our real wincons, which is equipment? I can see that. I ran 3 SFMs for a while because I felt the 4th was better off as something more proactive, but I found that to be wrong because voltroning a Souls token is so often how we win. At the same time, though, cutting Bob seems insane. Letting us untap with a DRS, SFM or Confidant is almost always handing us the game. The only creature at a similar CMC that's even close to those three, in any color, is Mother of Runes (which we could also play!)
Bob is one of the best cards in the deck. It is the one card I would never go below 4 of. Maybe that is me though. Stoneforge I cant see myself cutting any copies of either unless something completely insane gets printed. Basically I would begin this deck with 4 DRS, 4 Bob, 4 Stoneforge. That core right there is powerful enough to win a lot of games.
It's likely I'm pushing it with SotL since I feel like it has to be good, plus I think this kind of deck ends up losing to blue decks due to card selection often. Pushing decks like S&T against the wall and then ruining their cantrips seem decent enough too.
I'm gonna cut it though, since you guys are right in that a lot of the time it doesn't do much, and while a 3/1 is not bad, it's not the best use of a card either. Sadly I don't think I can find a spot for it in the SB either.
I've liked Thalia so far, it does hurt us to some extent although I board out some amount of Lingering Souls everytime I bring her in. Still, I really like her against Storm decks. I've been boarding her in against S&T too, which I'm not sure if its right, but it hasn't hurt much since I have a good amount of dead cards in that MU.
I've experimented with Teeg and Choke in the SB a bit but didn't get to cast them much. I went back a few pages but couldn't find your list Valech, what does your mana base look like? I'd like to give one of those a try.
No karakas and no 4th Scrubland for now, working on both of these. Karakas are hard to find, and getting stuff shipped here is, let's say, complicated. Should I cut Chapel and one Mesa and add Swamp and Plains? I haven't found Chapel to be too much of a problem, but it does come up and this decks luckily doesn't have too strict mana requirements.
I agree with the whole wasteland thing. The card is very powerful and let's you steal games before they began.
I'm going to try 2 Cabal Therapy instead of the 2 SotL. In that case I feel like I want the 4th Lingering Souls so I can get value out of Therapy so I'll take the Disfigure out and try that. 4 StP + 2 Vindicate + 3 LotV seem like enough removal, but I may be wrong.
Thanks for the help guys.
Currently:
4 Marsh Flat
4 Scrublands
4 Wastelands
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Bayou
3 Swamp
Thinking of -1 swamp +1 Verdant
But as I mentioned I play Choke and teeg sb and decay mb. Forest is clearly the weakest card in my 60 right now.
Right, I'd rather not play a forest if I can avoid it. Decay could be nice though, specially to deal with Counterbalance.
My current plan against Miracles is sideboarding in a Needle for Top plus a Tutor and Humility with Persecutions, but I don't feel like it's an actually good plan to be honest. I have one open spot and I'd like it to be something to help in that MU which I expect to face in my next Open. Sadly I can hardly get any testing with it locally. I'll probably just jam a Choke in there and try to be mindful of my fetch use so I can actually cast it.
Imean, souls is sooooo good against miracles. As long as you don't over extends I feel like you should be ooky. Also as you said, Choke is real good. Especially when they tap out or something
The arbiter version o dnt runs 26 lands 4 ports 4 wastea 4 ghost and mix of karkas flagstones canopy and 9 plains. So arbiter verion is teally dedicated to it. 4 arbiters and 4 SotL quarters kan still be normal fetch with flagstones.
But för deadguy ghost could still very much work there is so many greedy decks out there. Even againd dnt the card is far from dead its an extra way to get out of port lock. Pretty much only against miracle its bad but making them shuffel after protecting spells with brainstorm still seem like a nice plan or shuffeling when draw with top.
After getting destroyed by RUG, and more specifically, nimble mongoose, last night I think that EE needs to seesome love. However, I think I need to drop the whole tutor package to do it
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