@nerv2004. I see what u mean. Very seldom to we actually get to 7. Deck development is he name of the game lol.
@darkghost. Being on the play with this deck makes you really thing about how you play definitely against tempo. A loss g1 makes a hard decision for g2. What would you suggest cutting MB for metalworkers? Plus do u think it beneficial to put lightning greaves back in?
@souleater. I think I'm gonna be developing the stax version for a while. I need to get a list of the upcoming tournaments in the Dallas area so I can get those weekends off. I just missed scg Dallas. One of the guys Austin Palmer plays at our shop a Geek World Tyler, TX made top 8.
For anyone playing the Post version how do you feel about upping the count of lands or adding crucible of worlds to the deck. It seems like every time I lose it's because of getting mana screwed by the opponent in the first few turns before I can get to metalworker or lodestone. I've been flirting with the idea of cutting karn for a while now because it always just seems like a win more card, the only time it's really been great is in the mirror but this deck is fringe enough that I feel like preparing for the mirror to be a useless endeavor, I've lost many games with karn in play or stuck in my hand. I've also never been impressed with the forgemasters, sure you can win but without greaves the lodestone + forgemaster beatdowns end the game at about the same time, and forgemaster facilitates a lot of dead cards, namely blightsteel and redundant forgemasters have never been great. I feel like it would be fine if the deck was blue for thirst for knowledge and brainstorm but that's not really possible. Again the only time forgemaster has been good for me is in the mirror, it is also ok against elves but I feel like there are just better cards. In my experience forgemaster has just been a 3/5 that I couldn't activate because it wouldn't do anything or I didn't have chalice against RUG because the threat of stifle. Anyway the deck has been performing really similar to something like rug in so because when RUG is ahead it feels like the best deck ever, like with our nut draws, but you have to work really hard to win from stalemate or from a deficit. What I've been thinking of switching to is a stax version, the basic shell being lodestone, metalworker, and tangle wire + stacks. I've been thinking of a mana base of something like 8 sol lands, 4 wasteland, 4 rishadon port, maybe mox diamonds, 4 monolith, then probably fill out the rest of the lands base with stuff leading up to 20 lands at least. I can post the current rough draft when I get back from school.
@Souleater734: Yup, that's why I switched to MUDstax. I felt the exact similar things about Karn, Blightsteel, and Forgemaster... Same thing even with Greaves and Staff of Domination.
Also, I run 24 lands, but not the full set of 12post. I tested Ports before and they are good too, and great against 12post landbases.
@Shawn_ozz: Take a look at Souleater's post. Those are good suggestions on what to cut. Karn Liberated and Metalworker are not synergetic, though it still works when you have a lot of artifacts in your hand. Forgemaster and Stax will make you sacrifice a lot together. Some more easier spots to cut are some Spheres (Trini or Resistance). I loved Phyrexian Metamorphs when I tested them. My next step of testing is taking out the Stax and adding in more beats (Steel Hellkites and Metamorph), but I have considered MUDstax to be a solid build and is a go-to strategy for me.
Staxx is a dead end. Legacy is filled with decks that run on 1 / 2 mana spells, i dont staxx is legit because of this.
Not that i am against staxx-effects, i loved lodestone, tanglewire etc. Especially tangle wire with welder out! But as a whole it doesnt work. Thats why i just run 4 chalice and 4 trinisphere because of obvious reasons.
forgemaster is awesome, even without haste equipment. Its a 3/5 for 5 wich isnt bad with sol lands. block batterskull and tarmogoyf all day. The only thing to fear is swords of plowshares but that isnt important with chalice as backup. blightsteel wins you games as does emperion.
ratchet bomb & steel hellkite deserve more love!!!!
If I want a beater and a blocker for 5 mana I want Karn's Silver Golem. Sure forgemaster has more versatility but it also adds more dead cards
This is the deck that I have been testing the last couple days:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn's, Silver Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Staff of Domination
2 Ratchet Bomb
The deck has been performing pretty well and so far I haven't missed the Forgemasters. Usually the games go resolve lock piece followed up with Lodestone or metalworker then just win while they can't really do anything. Karn has been fine, though I wish his activated ability had more use than turning crucible or staff into 3/3s but the body has been fine. I'm still not sure if the 4/2 split of Wurmcoil and Hellkite is correct. It used to be 3/3 but I always wanted wurmcoil over hellkite most of the time. The sideboard is still a work in progress but I like the step up so far.
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
2 Karn Liberated
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 All is Dust
I've been considering cutting the spellskites for spine of ish sah or something for the show and tell match up but no one at my lgs is playing show and tell anymore so it seems fine for now. The ghost quaters have been interesting and I still don't know if 3 is the correct number or if I want them at all. I did get a miracles palyer in ghost quarter lock in testing today, it is also better than cavern against D&T or jund, and has been a lot better than the ports against delver. Karn Liberated has been fine in the sideboard against decks that can't deny mana like miracles, stoneblade, and is fine against shardless bug since they can't really wasteland anything besides port under a trinisphere or lodestone. All is dust hasn't really done much so that is something else worth considering. I like the 4th crucible for abrupt decay decks and has been fine against D&T as well. I've only done limited testing so far so any advice is appreciated.
Dead cards? You know whats a dead card? Staff of domination is a dead card 95% of the time. It only functions when u have a metalworker out, wich survives then get staff in uncountered, then still have 3 artifacts on hand in a deck that likes to play..Originally Posted by Souleater734
Forgemaster is a win con and a decent body. Its also a safe button to forge in duplicant or emperion against certain decks. Blightsteel is awesome because of indestructible and one hit oops i win reasons. Getting hellkite eot and a one sided ratchet of your choice? Awesome.
Blightsteel is easily the worst card to draw, I would rather have redundant trinispheres or chalices than a blightsteel in hand. Sure eot hellkite or instant speed duplicant is fine but you are sacrificing 3 artifacts each time you activate it. Do you realize how often in an interactive game where you don't have any spare artifacts in play to actually use the forgemaster. Like I said in an earlier post forgemaster just doesn't do enough unless you want to cut or shave other cards to add a more versatile forgemaster package, but that adds stuff like duplicant or spine to your deck which are also dead in a lot of matchups. Staff doesn't just combo with metalworker, I like the versatility at such little cost, compared to forgemaster, that the staff provides. Being able to ambush attackers with staffs untap, reduce your opponents attackers or blockers with the tap creature ability, and if all else fails you can draw a card if you really need to. Another reason for staff over forgemaster is that staff is 2 cards in the build I just posted and the forgemaster packages are at least 5 cards, 1 that is dead when you draw it unless you have metalworker, unlike staff which isn't completely useless without the metalworker.
@Souleater734: While Alex has a good build of his own, you won't get much discussing card choices with him, other than bashing and nonconstructive feedback.
Steel Hellkites handle the Merfolks, Goblins, and Elves match ups for you (over All is Dust)?
Thats a bit to harsh. His second point was very valid regarding the utility of forgemaster, especially post sideboard when your looking that silver bullet card.
@Souleater734: id rather play karn in a more prison styled deck as your describing, as late game he turns other cards into beaters, but for the more traditional version forgemaster just provides so much utility.
Me and Souleater are trying to build stax. And no way stax is a dead end in legacy. Telling us that it is does not help in any way at all... And you don't think that's harsh? I have used stax to great success, and is no way a dead card in legacy.
Forgemasters are good, but not what I am aiming for, and not what I really wanna play with.
Karn liberated is also a dead draw sometimes, thats why i cut it. Its nice when out but it isnt a certain thread. Mud should utllilise its mana advantage by playing threads any turn. I love a blightsteel in hand. Not 2 but 1 is fine. I play 3 copper gnomes. Uncounterable cheating for a reasonable amount of mana. When i drop gnomes they must answer. When i follow by a metalworker they must answer. Forgemaster? Must answer too. I dont really care about the sac 3 artifacts thing. A: activate and i most certainly wil win. B: i play artifacts. And not only that i play 8 manlands who can become artifacts too for saccing. I never had a helpless forgemaster out.
Well if i look at souleaterslist i wander does 4 chalice 4 sphere make it stax? Or is ot the 2 crucible that makes it stax for you?
I heard white had a few good stax cards so splashing that seems mandatory. Thalia obviously is lodestone 5-8. How does karn interact with humility? Tangle wire is awesome too and very staxy.
He is thinking of using a stax like version, but as it is he is not using stax yet. I am. And thank you for your suggestions.
You added a 4th Blinkmoth to your list? How are your MU's against UG variants (bug, rug) percentage-wise?
1. I cut Karn, Liberated for similar reasons, except with Karn there were times when I would lose with him in play. Karn is great against control decks without anyway to cut off mana so I think its a fine sideboard card for decks like miracles and such
2. Copper Gnomes isn't really used in the most successful list, not saying it's bad, just not popular
3. There are times with forgemaster in the post version where are you have in play is forgemaster, 3 sphere, and Chalice for 1 in play, and that is where forgemaster is extremely bad.
I was only talking about the post version of the deck, the version I have the most experience with, I can't speak for forgemaster in other versions since I don't have the same experience level with other variants.
P.S. It is also very likely you will only have a couple threats in your opening hand and won't draw any and your opponent can just run you out of threat, this is especially likely off mulligans , or even ok 7 card hands that you can't really mulligan since it has mana and some lock pieces but only 1 or 2 threats.
Karn is really bad when he cant be dropped fast or when the opponent has a lot of creatures. Shooting one a turn just wont work sometimes. Thats why i run all is dust sb, at least that clears their board.
Copper gnome is very rare, and thats a shame. I run a lot of creatures. 4 wurmcoil 3 hellkite 1 blightsteel 1 emperion 4 kuldotha. Its just a tuned up grim monolith for me. Sol land into gnomes is just something that u want to answer. If not i might drop a second sol land, pass then do something nasty EOT. Youll never know. Plus it makes what you drop uncounterable. Sweet.
I can imagine u dont want to sac ur lock pieces, maybe i dont care because i run 8 manlands. i very often sac a factorie or nexus to forgemaster to keep from hurting my board presence.
8 Manlands really shines, feels like i am playing some sort of manland deck sometimes. a 3/3 factory is a awesome blocker early game, and a nexus kills delver and buys time against big guys like marit-liege. A turn can be all u need when forgemaster is out. I think thet also help engulf an opponent late game.
- regarding stax did anyone ever explored the way tangle wire has synergy with storage matrix? matrix goes off after untapphase, wire in upkeep? Maybe with welder?
Also http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7410&d=242410&f=LE top 3 dies from a single blood moon.. wtf
Here is the link http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal
During the week I play in the 11pm (eastern time) daily and on Saturdays I play on the 10 am and 2 pm daily events.
@Lilevo: Awesome, thanks.
@Everyone: Post MUD on camera right now R8 of Indianapolis.
EDIT: Nicely done. Hopefully we'll see him in top 8.
Legacy decks-
MUD
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
Hi All,
I've been playing MUD for about a year now, and reading this site for nearly as long. Thank you for all of the advice and ideas! I played in SCG Indy and finished 24th. I was in the top 10 for most of the day and just missed a camera match. (I was next to play, but they decided there wasn't enough time left to cut into our match.) Anyways, here's the list I played. I'm going to the Invitational in Columbus, and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks again!
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1198020
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