All B/R update speculation.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Well blue wouldn't have the most aggressively costed creature ever anymore, so prolly very different

[Megadeus]

Sure sounds like fun for the other side.

I mean is it worse than T2 show and derp? Fun factor shouldn't be a determining factor to whether or not a card should be on the ban list. Some of us enjoy prison strategies.

[Darkenslight]

Well blue wouldn't have the most aggressively costed creature ever anymore, so prolly very different

Still has the best efficient beater, though in SFM.

[Barook]

I'm just curious as to how the meta would become with Delver banning.

It would certainly shake up the metagame for sure since some Delver variant has pretty much always been the top dog of the format since its release.

What are the decks Delver excels against? Those decks would probably benefit from it.

I don't think other aggressive decks would suddenly appear in the metagame, mainly because Miracles still takes a crap on those strategies.

There are not nearly enough Suppression Fields, Chokes, Chalices, Thalias or mainboard REB's in the metagame to adress the named blue core, that I would even consider the discussion valid, because the cardpool in Legacy can't handle it itself and needs the help of the banhammer.

- Suppression Field sucks since it hinders you too much from having an effective, consistent strategy yourself. There's a good reason people never play it.

- Do the green non-blue decks really just not do well right now because they don't run enough Chokes?

- Chalice: Same issue like Suppression Field. There aren't many shells where you can effectively run it. Stompy sucks because it's too inconsistent, which leaves us with Lands and maybe Merfolk variants.

- Thalia is already adapted by D&T with huge success. Deathguy Ale and Maverick also incorporate it, but aren't as successful as D&T. Everything else prefers a blue shell for greater consistency.

- How many decks can actually afford dead cards for the 30% non-blue metagame, aside from Imperial Painter and maybe other blue decks that can shuffle away dead REBs with the help of Brainstorm? Just suggesting that one should run a color-specific sideboard card in the maindeck just shows how warped the metagame has become. Kinda reminds me of "Affinity is fine, just run more maindeck artifact hate!".

The solutions to Brainstorm are too narrow, too slow or require specific, often suboptimal shells. Otherwise, Brainstorm would be solved already.

Still has the best efficient beater, though in SFM.

SFM is much slower and more beatable, though. Double Delver on the play, backed-up with disruption/protection is just beyond stupid.

I mean is it worse than T2 show and derp? Fun factor shouldn't be a determining factor to whether or not a card should be on the ban list. Some of us enjoy prison strategies.

Worse? Certainly not. S&T just a dumb card. And I certainly enjoy Prison strategies to some extend, otherwise I wouldn't play D&T.

[ahg113]

Still has the best efficient beater, though in SFM.

And it's A-ok if Goyf becomes the best blue creature again too.

[nedleeds]

I mean is it worse than T2 show and derp? Fun factor shouldn't be a determining factor to whether or not a card should be on the ban list. Some of us enjoy prison strategies.

... and Vise is often a cinder block if drawn late ... it can't attack or block. I guess it can be Shrapnel Blasted. Or I guess if you unban Vise and leave Brainstorm it can be shuffled away with Cheatstorm.

[Zombie]

SFM is much slower and more beatable, though. Double Delver on the play, backed-up with disruption/protection is just beyond stupid.

Nut draws happen sometimes.

[Lemnear]

How many decks can actually afford dead cards for the 30% non-blue metagame, aside from Imperial Painter and maybe other blue decks that can shuffle away dead REBs with the help of Brainstorm? Just suggesting that one should run a color-specific sideboard card in the maindeck just shows how warped the metagame has become. Kinda reminds me of "Affinity is fine, just run more maindeck artifact hate!".

If 30% of the average metagame was non-blue we would not have the discussion nor see Miracle lists like the one of Maxime Gilles during the GP. I don't see why the metagame, if infested with blue cantrips, cannot react with dedicated hate. I mean, we are fine to be forced to play MB creature hate as well because of the metagame, aren't we?

[Barook]

I mean, we are fine to be forced to play MB creature hate as well because of the metagame, aren't we?

Maybe because creatures are one, if not the centerpiece of the game, unlike blue cantrips? I'm not arguing for a "Standard Herp-a-Derp turn fat dudes sideaways"-format, but stating that the format should revolve around a subclass of a color's spell is ridiculous. That's like saying "Legacy should revolve around burn spells because casting spells is awesome and all people should be forced to maindeck hate against me."

As far as hate i concerned, I miss Vial in your list since it puts a dent into blue's counterwall and goes extremely well with Thalia + Karakas. If anything, you should ask why not more people are running Vial.

[Megadeus]

I t really boils down to, are there enough ways to fight BS and such? Yes. Certainly. But doing so requires you generally to run a less consistent (because you lack brainstorm), or simply too weak of a deck. Sure, I could run a deck with like 4 Spirit of the Labyrinth and MB Chains of Mephistopheles. But I shouldn't really have to. Consistency is the real reason BS is such a powerful card. Over a longer tournament (Oh look, the 15/16 brainstorm tourney happened to be one of the very few 10 round Legacy events SCG has had in awhile) the Brainstorm decks will rise over the non BS decks simply on the fact of consistency. Hence why Delver did so well this time around. It is an aggressive deck that punishes poor draws, while it doesn't require too much to have playable hands to operate, plus it has BS to dig out of a mediocre draw.

[Lemnear]

Maybe because creatures are one, if not the centerpiece of the game, unlike blue cantrips? I'm not arguing for a "Standard Herp-a-Derp turn fat dudes sideaways"-format, but stating that the format should revolve around a subclass of a color's spell is ridiculous. That's like saying "Legacy should revolve around burn spells because casting spells is awesome and all people should be forced to maindeck hate against me."

As far as hate i concerned, I miss Vial in your list since it puts a dent into blue's counterwall and goes extremely well with Thalia + Karakas. If anything, you should ask why not more people are running Vial.

Despite the fact that WotC wants creatures to be THE centerpiece of MTG which is clear if less than 10% of cards in the last Expansion did not have the word "creature" written on it, I get your idea. Non the less we had Vintage evolve around artifacts for the mayority of the time since it's creation and is in a chokehold of a subtype of "artifacts" called "creatures" since Feb 2010 with the whole metagame evolving around Lodestone Golem.

You are right about Vial to beat counterwalls, but aside from Countertop or some RUG openers there is nothing like a counterwall in Legacy, The Problem aren't endless counters; it's counters backed up by a clock which would bring is back to the easy splashables SFM, Delver, Goofy or TNN. The topic however wasn't counterwalls, but Brainstorm+Ponder+Fetches as an omnipresent core which people rather adapt than fight. The question I asked was "why" and I think we only scratched the surface

Edit:

Hence why Delver did so well this time around. It is an aggressive deck that punishes poor draws, while it doesn't require too much to have playable hands to operate, plus it has BS to dig out of a mediocre draw.

I think this is the core of the current Problem: T1 Delver on the play (often backed up by the usual suspects) just runs away with the game

[Adryan]

The point of a fun format is that every archetype is competitve and can win you a tournament, it's not that every color is as strong as the other colors. Blue will always be the strongest color in every format, given enough time and therefore enough cards to enter the format card pool. Just look at Modern.
Legacy is already more diverse than any other format. By diversity i mean archetype representation, not color representation. And one color being more played than all the other colors is fine, especially when the majority of the playerbase has fun playing the format and the more played color is fun, complex and decision rich.

No one knows what will happen to Legacy if they ban Brainstorm. One can only guess. Saying that everything will be better is just dumb.
I think Combo decks will benefit a lot from the Brainstorm banning. The number of Delver decks would without a doubt decrease, the loss of Brainstorm would hurt fair decks more than combo decks. Maybe Combo will start to become really oppressive, maybe Jund/ NicFit will become opressive. Yeah maybe. That's just guessing. Everyone is guessing. The potential damage of a banned Brainstorm is too high, and i think it's a lot safer AND FUN FOR EVERYONE when Wotc introduces non blue TNNs in supplemental products, that make decks like Maverick good once again.

Personally Legacy is near perfect for me. I have two decks i love to play: Death and Taxes and Miracles. The first i start to like more and more because it stomps those dumb S&T strategies, is one of the best decks and is good against most combo decks (i play the Land Destruction list of the BoM with 4 Spirit etc.) One funny thing is that there is no deck in the format that plays lands that can win against the god draw of this deck. Even Delver God draw loses against Death and Taxes God draw.

[Barook]

The point of a fun format is that every archetype is competitve and can win you a tournament, it's not that every color is as strong as the other colors. Blue will always be the strongest color in every format, given enough time and therefore enough cards to enter the format card pool. Just look at Modern.
Legacy is already more diverse than any other format. By diversity i mean archetype representation, not color representation. And one color being more played than all the other colors is fine, especially when the majority of the playerbase has fun playing the format and the more played color is fun, complex and decision rich.

No one knows what will happen to Legacy if they ban Brainstorm. One can only guess. Saying that everything will be better is just dumb.
I think Combo decks will benefit a lot from the Brainstorm banning. The number of Delver decks would without a doubt decrease, the loss of Brainstorm would hurt fair decks more than combo decks. Maybe Combo will start to become really oppressive, maybe Jund/ NicFit will become opressive. Yeah maybe. That's just guessing. Everyone is guessing. The potential damage of a banned Brainstorm is too high, and i think it's a lot safer AND FUN FOR EVERYONE when Wotc introduces non blue TNNs in supplemental products, that make decks like Maverick good once again.

Personally Legacy is near perfect for me. I have two decks i love to play: Death and Taxes and Miracles. The first i start to like more and more because it stomps those dumb S&T strategies, is one of the best decks and is good against most combo decks (i play the Land Destruction list of the BoM with 4 Spirit etc.) One funny thing is that there is no deck in the format that plays lands that can win against the god draw of this deck. Even Delver God draw loses against Death and Taxes God draw.

It's interesting to see how everybody thinks that their archetype is probably off the worst. You say that combo might be oppressive. Lemnear (whom I'd classify as a Storm player) thinks that combo would essentially disappear from the meta without Brainstorm.

While the meta rotates, it is kind of stall. Why? Delver is kinda oppressive, and so is Miracles (at least towards aggro) and both feed of Brainstorm. It's impossible to say how the meta would evolve, simply because two major format oppressors would be weakened alot with Brainstorm gone.

About the color thing: Nobody claims that the format needs to be a perfect split in color which is impossible, but when the format is loop-sided towards 70+% Brainstorm decks, it does kind of force you into a blue choice if you want to have the best shot at winning a tournament, which is again clearly showcased by the lasted Open. D&T mainly prevailed since it had a) a decent pilot b) a metagame to perform well and c) appearently draws/matches that weren't completely ass. Consistency is king, especially the longer the tournament goes, simply because the chance of shitty draws is lower.

About the D&T build: It's probably the closest I can think of that is competitive and what Lemnear wants in terms of an anti-blue metagame deck. Personally, I'm not a fan - it can do strong things, but is also alot weaker than the standard build when your plan doesn't run perfectly or against decks where the hate is irrelevant.

@Lemnear: I don't play Vintage, but from what I gather, Lodestone is a major oppressor of the metagame. If that's the case, why isn't it banned yet (since they obviously won't ban Workshop)?

[nedleeds]

People have cried for lodestone to be banned but, Moxen, bolt, claim, and other outs exist. Workshops also suffer the same fate over long events that legacy tomb chalice decks do: little card selection and inconsistent openers that can't be fixed with blue cards. Also being on the play impacts a shop deck heavily, so a few bad die rolls and you may have 2 losses. In legacy if you could get the play and tomb chalice 8 out of 9 rounds you would likely top 8, its just not that likely to get those openers and the play.

[Lemnear]

It's interesting to see how everybody thinks that their archetype is probably off the worst. You say that combo might be oppressive. Lemnear (whom I'd classify as a Storm player) thinks that combo would essentially disappear from the meta without Brainstorm.

About the D&T build: It's probably the closest I can think of that is competitive and what Lemnear wants in terms of an anti-blue metagame deck. Personally, I'm not a fan - it can do strong things, but is also alot weaker than the standard build when your plan doesn't run perfectly or against decks where the hate is irrelevant.

@Lemnear: I don't play Vintage, but from what I gather, Lodestone is a major oppressor of the metagame. If that's the case, why isn't it banned yet (since they obviously won't ban Workshop)?

I did not say it would disappear, but shift towards FoW-check decks like Belcher as you can't sculpt winning hands with Brainstorm anymore to get rid of junk in your hand, which decks like storm or S&T require. I'd predict that shift because the decrese of consistant combo decks would likely result into a decrese of Spell Pierces and the like overall. After 4 years on Legacy storm I dare to say that I might have an idea about the impact of a BS-banning ;)

I disagree with the previously mentioned idea that Delver decks would decrese, because without BS, fighting back T1 Delvers on the play can become an herculean task considering the upcoming manadenial

D&T indeed punishes greedy keeps and shacky manabases with its Wastelands, Ports and Thalias while Vial gets around counters. We need more of such decks in the format and I think that 12-post is a perfect example of how to punish the Delver/Miracles metagame as well.

@Lodestone: I have no fucking clue why it's still legal as a 4-off and is not restricted. It turned Vintage right into the diceroll-format it was called by people since the formats intoduction which was plain nonsense until Lodestone saw print. I "played" too many games against MUD in which I was basically locked by losing the dice and having to witness Lodestone, Thorn, Chalice, 3Sphere or Phyrexian Metamorph making it impossible to play even a single spell. Trinisphere got restricted for being uninteractive, but the same concept attached to a 5/3 body is legal as a 4-off. WotC didn't give a fuck to this very day and I decided to do the same and sold my beta power during 2013. I usually pick up the Lodestone example if people call for 1cc aka turn 1 hatebears for Legacy...

[Megadeus]

Only played one match against shops and won. I guess playing against it more often would help

[Adryan]

Saying that Miracle will be as weakened as Delver from a Brainstorm ban is just wrong. Yes Miracle would be weakened, but you have to consider that Delver decks are gone or like 5 % of the meta.

Delver is an aggro deck and if it is less played, we have no deck that comes out of the gate as fast and tries to kill you as fast as possible. Zoo will never make a comeback, because of SFM, SCM, Batterskull, TNN and of course Miracle which is still highly favored against Zoo even without Brainstorm.

The stock Miracle list if Brainstorm is banned will play 4 JTMS. They will also play 4 Counterspell, because there is less aggro in the format and it will still crush all the Maverick decks and will be favored against Jund. It will adapt to the slower metagame. So if you want dead decks like Maverick to exist once again, the only way to make them good again are new cards, not a banned Brainstorm.


Edit: From a Miracle players perspective i have no problem with Brainstorm being banned. I think it would be one of the least affected fair decks in Legacy. I would actually enjoy the fact that Delver is played a lot less in the format, because i always wanted to play 4 Counterspells in my Maindeck, but i think Delver & Brainstorm are very healthy for this format, because Delver is the only aggro deck in Legacy that is competitve. If you want Legacy to be better in some way banning some cards is not the solution.

I agree that it's kind of a problem that Brainstorm decks are more consistent than non Brainstorm decks, but the solution is not banning Brainstorm. Why take consistency away? Why not add consistency to other colors? I think Green Suns Zenith is one of the best designed cards in the last 5 years. Power is a reason, that we don't see any GSZ in Standard Formats, but with the upcoming Commander Set this year Wotc has the perfect opportunity to give more consistency to other colors without affecting Standard. Blue players will be happy, non blue players and Wotc because they sell more stuff.

[Adryan]

We need more of such decks in the format and I think that 12-post is a perfect example of how to punish the Delver/Miracles metagame as well.

You really think 12 post is anywhere near favored against a Delver of Secrets.deck? I played sometimes against 12 post on Magic Online, but i never faced it when i was 2-0 or 3-0 because Delver decks and Combo completely crush that deck.

[Barook]

Saying that Miracle will be as weakened as Delver from a Brainstorm ban is just wrong. Yes Miracle would be weakened, but you have to consider that Delver decks are gone or like 5 % of the meta.

Delver is an aggro deck and if it is less played, we have no deck that comes out of the gate as fast and tries to kill you as fast as possible. Zoo will never make a comeback, because of SFM, SCM, Batterskull, TNN and of course Miracle which is still highly favored against Zoo even without Brainstorm.

The stock Miracle list if Brainstorm is banned will play 4 JTMS. They will also play 4 Counterspell, because there is less aggro in the format and it will still crush all the Maverick decks and will be favored against Jund. It will adapt to the slower metagame. So if you want dead decks like Maverick to exist once again, the only way to make them good again are new cards, not a banned Brainstorm.

Edit: From a Miracle players perspective i have no problem with Brainstorm being banned. I think it would be one of the least affected fair decks in Legacy. I would actually enjoy the fact that Delver is played a lot less in the format, because i always wanted to play 4 Counterspells in my Maindeck, but i think Delver & Brainstorm are very healthy for this format, because Delver is the only aggro deck in Legacy that is competitve. If you want Legacy to be better in some way banning some cards is not the solution.

Wouldn't Delver list just play Serum Visions or Preordain instead? Setting up a Delver with Brainstorm is okay, but rather the exception than the norm. The deck would lose power without Brainstorm, but I doubt would suddenly vanish from the meta.

Miracles only being able to put back drawn Terminus copies with Jacestorm seems like a huge blow to it since part of Terminus' power comes from being able to ignore clear Magic design rules due to being outlandishly cheap for its effect. And unlike Brainstorm, both Jace and SDT can be blocked by Revoker/Needle. But I can only speak from the perspective of a D&T player, but I'm certain Miracles would lose ground in this match-up due to this.

[Megadeus]

I think that if you dont resolve pithing Needle on Wasteland vs Delver, you basically lose right? Especially since they arent playing as many copies of Repeal