All B/R update speculation.

[JPoJohnson]

I've thoroughly enjoyed the format and so I've continued playing, but a Brainstorm ban would confirm a lot of people's worries that Legacy is drifting more towards Modern-heavy rather than Vintage-light, and that takes a lot of the fun out of the format. Right now we have an objectively diverse format with a ton of truly viable decks. Why constrict the tactical pool because a lot of people have latched onto a a powerful spell that doesn't make the games less fun, less interactive, or less skill-intensive?

I would completely second this thought process. I really don't see the card being banned, or needing banned, at any point in the near future. WotC continued reprinting and support of the card would also suggest this line of thought.

[davelin]

Right now we have an objectively diverse format with a ton of truly viable decks.

I don't think most would stand behind this statement given the top decks are heavily comprised of a delver variants, Miracles and occasionally blue-based combo.

[Zombie]

Nonblue decks would be most helped by killing things that remove nuance and interaction from the board or curb the efficacy of nonblue answers to blue stupidity. Brainstorm is too strong maybe, but I have far bigger issues with cards like the Dumb Team, TNN, Council's Judgment and Leyline of Sanctity. Delver and Snapcaster I can deal with.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

If by objectively diverse you mean, blue based midrange, tempo, control and combo all featuring 4x brainstorm than sure diverse format is diverse

[Lord Seth]

I would completely second this thought process. I really don't see the card being banned, or needing banned, at any point in the near future. WotC continued reprinting and support of the card would also suggest this line of thought.

By that logic, they'd unban Sol Ring, because they've reprinted that a fair amount of times.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If BS is the card that differentiates Legacy from Modern, then I'm sad. I thought that there's something fundamentally different, be it card pool, etc.
Even though I enjoy playing Brainstorms, I wouldn't shed a tear if it get banned. There are tons of second-tier cantrips and several tier-1 ones, and the fact that BS is an unmulligan device that helps to play responsively instead of planningahead, makes it pretty powerful card; there's no other card that makes this effect for this cost, esp. not non-blue card. BS might be grippin the format by the neck, and I'm not sure that's a positive thing. As much as I'd hate to lose my last one deck, if I'd have the power to swing the banhammer, I'd kill two cards without a blink of an eye: Brainstorm and Delver.
Delver, being a stupidly good card with an awful design, should be removed from our format immediatelly, as it outclasses most of combat.oriented dudes and is on pair with many of the utility ones; e.g. Delver doesn't produce CA like Bob does, but the sheer tempo it creates is more than worth it.
BS, the unmulligan card, protection from discard, etc., all that packed in one card for one mana, is freaking good and might have been banned once Mystical Tutor left the format. If MT was too powerful for Legacy, then I don't see how BS might be kept in T1,5 cardpool.

[Megadeus]

I dont think both should be banned. I'm not even positive either should be banned. I am just saying that the precedent set of a card being so heavily represented and being banned because it restricts the format, Brainstorm meets the criteria.

[Tyrio]

Like someone mentioned earlier, Brainstorm brings consistency to the game and that's good. It's part of the reason why I almost always play Loam decks; it's a real bitch to lose just because you drew two more lands than your opponent who drew all spells. However, the problem is that only blue has such a flexible consistency card while the only other options in other colors force you to build around them (Loam, Birthing Pod, Mirage Tutors, Wishes). Unbanning some of the weaker cards on the banlist (Twist, Earthcraft, and a few others) won't do anything to solve this disparity and no knows the true ramifications to banning Brainstorm.

What WotC should do is print comparable cards in other colors, but since no one at Wizards cares about Legacy or bothers to test it such a card will probably be a long time coming. Things like selective cantrip or scry bears that are aggressively costed may be a start?

[Megadeus]

I think it's pretty funny that people think Belcher will suddenly become 50% of the Meta if BS got banned

[Dice_Box]

I have seen that said before, hell I have said it myself, but when you say "Print things of equal value in other colours" What options are really available? I mean, the pie is a farce now, but that aside there are still things that Wizards will not do. So the cards would have to be flavourful. That limits what you can do and honestly kills off the idea that you can make someone comparable in the other colours.


Just to note. I think Black already has something close in Dark Ritual. That said, it offers a different kind of power.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Like someone mentioned earlier, Brainstorm brings consistency to the game and that's good. It's part of the reason why I almost always play Loam decks; it's a real bitch to lose just because you drew two more lands than your opponent who drew all spells. However, the problem is that only blue has such a flexible consistency card while the only other options in other colors force you to build around them (Loam, Birthing Pod, Mirage Tutors, Wishes). Unbanning some of the weaker cards on the banlist (Twist, Earthcraft, and a few others) won't do anything to solve this disparity and no knows the true ramifications to banning Brainstorm.

What WotC should do is print comparable cards in other colors, but since no one at Wizards cares about Legacy or bothers to test it such a card will probably be a long time coming. Things like selective cantrip or scry bears that are aggressively costed may be a start?

You're right, but then there's the trouble with the whole idea of color pie and the differencies between the colors. Imho, the very idea of color pie is somehow flawed, because unless you balance the things (which iscompletely impossible ina a game iwth 15k interchangeable pieces), there's always some aspect/part of the game that is the most powerful. In Magic, card selection and CA seems to be the most important ones, and denying it to non-blue colors makes them weaker. (Otoh, in a game more akin to e.g. Etherlords, where there is a greater focus on combat, card selection would be less important.) So, WotC could do something to make the game (or at least the eternal formats) less blue-centric, but I hope that this won't turn all the non-blue colors into blue-lite.
Card selction and stack control is what the other colors lack, and with proper tools this could be changed... if it's needed, which is to be discussed.

Lets say this?
stack control:
white: conditional counterspells (taxing counterspells and protective counterspells - similar to Dawn Charm), hatebears
black: conditional counterspells similar to Planar Chaos cycle? Idk...
red: cheap copy effects (might be dangerous, also Fork is RL), Ovinize.like counterspells, randomizers (probably with scry attached), etc.
green: something like Seedtime?

card selection/draw:
white: Ummm... I cannot come up with any reasonable idea. Do cantrips sound good?
black: cards for life
red: looting type of spells and effects, scry (instead of "deal X to target..." writen on each red spell), random tutors/draw
green: Mirri's Guile and friends

[Tyrio]

Ironically, Future Sight has options they could explore further. Things like Heartwood Storyteller and a more aggressively costed Llanowar Empath. Empath seems super sweet actually; he even gets around Spirit of the Labyrinth. More cycling and scrying in general would be nice.

[maharis]

I think it's pretty funny that people think Belcher will suddenly become 50% of the Meta if BS got banned

Or that Legacy-Brainstorm=Modern, a format where Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Glimpse of Nature, Dark Depths, Chrome Mox, Sword of the Meek, and Jace the Mind Sculptor are banned. The two best decks in modern have infinite combos, the format is a total mess.

I think a Brainstorm ban would be interesting for Legacy. It would slow the fair blue decks down a tad against non-blue fair decks, while still allowing most decks that play the card to replace it with Ponder, Preordain, or some other effect and still have a blue count high enough to support FoW against really fast decks like S&T or Belcher. Because honestly, I think the play of digging for Force at instant speed matters way less than just having Force against turn 1 or 2 combos.

However, I think Show & Tell is the best ban candidate to try and de-blue the format, followed by True-Name Nemesis. While S&T isn't oppressive, its presence drives more people to play Force/Daze/Spell Pierce decks, which are Brainstorm decks. It also means that decks that don't play countermagic have to play really narrow cards in their sideboard like Ashen Rider or Oblivion Ring and then pray to draw them in games 2 and 3. Of course, S&T itself is a Force/Brainstorm deck.

TNN is just stupid. We were having a discussion in the Dega thread about which three-drop to run. All of them are shit next to TNN, which is ridiculous because which color should have the best equipment-holding creatures among red, white, black, or blue? And now we have Council's Judgment as an "answer" which opens up a whole new can of worms. WOTC needs to stop the bleeding, like they did with Mental Misstep.

[Barook]

Elves splashed Blue, added Swan Song...

I was thinking about a maindeck splash, but that's fair enough.

I have seen that said before, hell I have said it myself, but when you say "Print things of equal value in other colours" What options are really available? I mean, the pie is a farce now, but that aside there are still things that Wizards will not do. So the cards would have to be flavourful. That limits what you can do and honestly kills off the idea that you can make someone comparable in the other colours.

Just to note. I think Black already has something close in Dark Ritual. That said, it offers a different kind of power.

As always, the problem to give other colors library manipulation is not only the color, but also how to prevent blue decks from abusing it the most. GSZ is a great example, and then there's a huge hole of nothing. Chances that Wizards prints another dumb, blue combat creature are higher than printing decent library manipulation in other colors.

Let's say Wizards would print Mirri's Guile as a 1/1 for , thus making it fetchable with GSZ. Sounds great, right? But what would prevent blue decks to pick up a few GSZ for it, DRS, Tarmogoyfs and maybe Ooze as toolbox?

[Megadeus]

I have seen that said before, hell I have said it myself, but when you say "Print things of equal value in other colours" What options are really available? I mean, the pie is a farce now, but that aside there are still things that Wizards will not do. So the cards would have to be flavourful. That limits what you can do and honestly kills off the idea that you can make someone comparable in the other colours.


Just to note. I think Black already has something close in Dark Ritual. That said, it offers a different kind of power.

So does Green Red and White right? Bolt, Healing Salve and Giant Growth ;)

[Michael Keller]

People love white weenies, that's why Wizards keeps printing them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is an obvious shot at Brainstorm, but if they had been really serious about hosing it, it would have had other stats, but Flash instead. A white "Counterspell" for cantrips with a body attached.

So after reading this and the conflicting other comments some folks have made, do people honestly think they take Legacy into consideration at all when creating new cards?

Legacy is a sanctioned format of Magic and represented wholly throughout the world culminating in Grand Prixs. It also is supported by arguably the largest gaming vendor in the U.S.

I honestly believe Legacy is mulled over when contemplating some aspect of card design.

[Megadeus]

I think that they do make cards with Legacy in mind, like the Spirit, however I don't think they necessarily test every for legacy. I'm not sure how much they tested Delver in Legacy, but I also don't think it was made with Legacy in mind.

[nedleeds]

Bringing up the point of why Elves doesn't play Brainstorm, if the arguments above about its ubiquity are true...

Glimpse and to a lesser extent Visionary. Combo elves is constructed with a creature density that makes Glimpse (then Cradle) dumb. You aren't looking to assemble 2 cards, you aren't fishing for counters so Brainstorm doesn't make a ton of sense here. A land drop and use of said land can't be spent on a Brainstorm because so many of the synergies in combo elves revolve around having N creatures in play or in hand ready to be cast.

Death and Taxes mostly doesn't want to play fetchlands, duals and minimize the things that are choked by Thalia / Canonist. That being said, drop a few ports add some fetches and Tundras and add 4 x Brainstorm in a W/u vial deck and you probably have a pretty good deck. Shuffling away redundant legendary things is pretty good, Brainstorm could help with some of the stiff or removal free draws you can get in straight white vial.

[Barook]

I think that they do make cards with Legacy in mind, like the Spirit, however I don't think they necessarily test every for legacy. I'm not sure how much they tested Delver in Legacy, but I also don't think it was made with Legacy in mind.

They only print cards especially designed for Eternal in products that aren't Standard/Modern-legal. TNN and Council's Judgment are a clear indication for that and they're just dumb since they're designed to be forced into the format in disregard of the color pie or basic design rules.

[Lord Seth]

So after reading this and the conflicting other comments some folks have made, do people honestly think they take Legacy into consideration at all when creating new cards?

Legacy is a sanctioned format of Magic and represented wholly throughout the world culminating in Grand Prixs. It also is supported by arguably the largest gaming vendor in the U.S.

I honestly believe Legacy is mulled over when contemplating some aspect of card design.

They've stated that they take Eternal formats into consideration and do design cards with Eternal formats in mind, but that they do little (if any) testing for said formats.