woah woah woah! i got first in the four rounder you posted! :Originally Posted by Qweerios
Okay, here's how I would sideboard that junk pod list that I posted yesterday. Here's the list again, for reference:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Roots
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Blade Splicer
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Restoration Angel
1x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan
3x Birthing Pod
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Batterskull
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
//sb
3 Natural Order
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nether Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Agent of Erebos
2 Ethersworn Canonist
I'm going to assume that we opt for Craterhoof for the NO-monster. I think it's probably slightly better than Worldspine.
I'm going to cover Jund, Deathblade, Miracles, Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves, and BUG Delver. Note that most of the same logic can be applied to similar decks within the general family -- ie, you sideboard vs Junk as you would sideboard vs Jund; RUG Delver and UWR Delver as vs BUG Delver, etc.
Jund:
+3 Natural Order
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Cabal Therapy
The rationale:
Natural Order finds Sigarda. Sigarda is better than Jund's entire 75. There are also situations where having extra Primeval Titans is worth it. You don't board in the Hoof here because you are not the beatdown. 9/10 you're going to be the control role in this matchup. Jitte can take over a game and is a strong anti-fair option to board in, in general.
You shave out a Pod because you're bringing in the 3 NOs, and you don't want to be overloaded on expensive tutoring options. Teeg does nothing in this matchup except help your opponent. These matches usually come down to who topdecks better, and while Nic Fit is generally favored in that, I still like shaving out 2 Therapies here. You don't really need them -- Jund has no way of getting around Veteran Explorer without setting it off, and the discard isn't that important vs Jund. I'd rather have better topdecks.
Wickerbough stays in because Jund likes to sideboard in extra Sylvan Libraries to try to out-grind us.
Deathblade:
+3 Natural Order
+1 Craterhoof
-4 Abrupt Decay
I'm of the opinion that Decay doesn't do much in this matchup. Usually the game state will come down to your creatures vs their TNNs / their planeswalkers, and Decay doesn't do anything to that. There is an argument that says that you can Decay their equipment, but I would rather have the NOs and the Hoof than the ability to kill their Jitte and the Sword of Feast/Famine. Good Therapy usage will render this need moot anyway. You are the beatdown this matchup, which is going to be amusing because most deathblade players are going to try to out-beatdown you, and then get Hoofed.
Miracles:
+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+1 Natural Order
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Cabal Therapy
Miracles is a deck that is based entirely around topdecking, either with or without a Top in play. As such, you basically never want to draw a Therapy. In other versions I frequently sideboard out Veterans here as well, but this list has the sideboard Jitte, and Veteran is a good body to hold a Jitte. Basically your gameplan here is to run out a single threat, bolster it with equipment, and force them to react to it. Two threats is acceptable, in case they have Swords or Jace bounce, or some such -- but I would never go over 2 bodies in play unless you're purposefully trying to end the game as quickly as possible and damn the torpedoes.
Cranial/Memoricide can be used in two ways. You can either take their win conditions (Jace + Entreat) or you can take their protection (Terminus + Swords) and try to kidney punch them as hard as possible. I usually opt for the wincons, but there's something to be said for snapcalling Terminus with this deck. You have a lot of dangerous creatures, and if they can't derpsweep them away, things could get rough very quickly for them.
Storm:
+1 Nether Void
+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Canonist
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Natural Order
+1 Craterhoof
+1 Orzhov Pontiff
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Batterskull
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Sigarda
-1 Shriekmaw
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Wickerbough Elder
-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Wall of Roots
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-4 Abrupt Decay
13/15 baby. Basically, you're transforming into an aggro deck. Decays are useless here, as is your top-end -- you'll never live to get it out, and you don't need to get it out to win anyway. Wall of Roots and KotR are both do-nothings here, and open some space lower in your curve. The gameplan is to disrupt them, maybe make a few hate bears, and NO for a lethal Hoof as quick as you can. Jitte replaces Batterskull. Skull isn't that great against Storm, but Jitte is surprisingly reasonable -- it allows you to neuter Empty the Warrens, and represents both a quick clock and the ability to gain a bunch of life and make Tendrils harder. Pontiff comes in to pump your team and kill the enemy quicker, while also offering Empty the Warrens protection.
Note that if you're against TES, call Burning Wish on your first Cranial, but if you're against ANT, call Tendrils.
Sneak:
+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Thoughtseize
-4 Abrupt Decay
We don't have much for this matchup, but I'm not convinced that we need a lot. We have a LOT of ways to get to Karakas, which is good, and we also have Teeg to shut down Sneak Attack (although they can Snow a Sneak). Shriekmaw kills Emrakul, and Wickerbough kills Sneak Attack. I mean, they can very easily go t1 Tomb Petal Show Griselbrand kill you, but that's the price we pay for not being a blue deck. Belcher happens. There'll also be games where they sit there and cantrip for 5 turns while we just make them dead.
I don't board the Natural Order / Hoof plan here because we neither need the extra tutor nor wish to expose ourselves to Force of Will/Spell Pierce/etc needlessly. Sneak runs a lot of countermagic, and we're going to be more worried about taking their combo pieces with discard than their protection. Better to do it the old-fashioned way here IMO.
Elves:
+1 Cranial Extraction
+1 Memoricide
+2 Canonist
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Orzhov Pontiff
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Batterskull
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Sigarda
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Wickerbough Elder
-1 Birthing Pod
-1 Wall of Roots
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
Pontiff and Jitte are gods. Everything else is just standard disruption to try to get one of those two things to happen. Decays are obviously insane here. We're more controlling in this matchup than we are against Storm, say, where we're balls to the walls aggressive. We're not going to out-hoof the hoof deck, so there's no point in burdening the deck with the NO plan. It could probably steal you a few games, but I'm inclined to believe that it isn't worth the slots.
BUG Delver:
+2 Natural Order
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Wickerbough Elder
They might bring in a Library or two vs you, but that's what Deed is for. As with Jund, Delver decks have a very hard time beating Sigarda and Primeval Titan. Just be very careful when Ordering, because Delver decks play a lot of soft countermagic. Most of that will have probably been boarded out vs Nic Fit, but it's usually wise to still play around Daze and Spell Pierce anyway just in case. You -can- board in Jitte here if you really want to, but I don't find it worthwhile in this matchup. The biggest issue with Jitte here is that most of your cards are already really good against these decks. While Jitte is a fine card against Delver, it's not better than what you're already packing.
Hope that helps.
Ok, got some questions.
First great stuff Arianrhod.
Teeg: he's totally anti-synergistic with pod and zenith.
Anyone doing any testing with Archangel of Thune / Spike Feeder anymore?
What about thrun MB? No enter/dies effects but a reliable beater.
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Teeg is fine. You can always bounce/re-cast him with Karakas if you need to -- Pod is awful in multiples, so if you have 1 pod in play already you don't care about the others. If you played Teeg at all, he's probably hurting the enemy worse than he's hurting you.
I'll still be working on Thune/Feeder versions here soon -- this was just because I was asked my opinion on a deck for SCG Vegas and my reply was too large for a private message. I do think that there's a lot of strength in that Junk Pod list, though -- it's very no-frills and no-nonsense, which I do like. The Thune/Feeder versions are just a different style of deck, really. I'm actually moving tomorrow/this weekend, so I should be able to actually test and such again soon -- my cards have been boxed up and packed away for almost a month now =(((
Thrun's bad. He's a reliable beater that is worse than Sigarda in almost every conceivable way. If you're playing Punishing or some such and you don't have access to Sigarda, then sure - but he's a just a poor man's Sigarda. MAYBE if you were running a heavy SFM version with multiple Sword of X and Ys/Jitte/etc...but that's about the only reason I could think of to run a Thrun alongside Sigarda.
I am still on the Fire version with 2 md Thoughtsieze. My last 4 weekly tournaments have gone :
2-0 Cephalid Breakfast
2-1 ANT
1-1 DnT
2-1 Dredge
--------------
0-2 SnS
2-0 Dredge
2-0 enchantress (stax)
1-2 enchantress (combo)
---------------
2-0 Dredge
1-1 SnS (went to turns, needed 1 more to win)
2-1 Shardless
1-1 Lands
---------------
2-0 Rug delver
2-0 Dredge (non-dread return version)
2-1 oops
1-1 Uw Blade
Waaaaayy to much combo match ups for me lately, especially dredge. 4 weeks in a row...Wtf! Our weekly gets about 25-30 ppl so not sure why so much of that deck but 4-0 against it.
Better mana base than the previous one.
As promised, I tested it a bit last week against several Delver.decks.
Punchlines:
- 1) Not enough "black" color. I got stomped by delver.deck many times because I could not cast AD, Deed, therapy. You seem to have fixed this issue in your most updated list (So did I last week :D)
-2) Deck feels even slower than my punishing Vraska and I was playing at a decent pace... In sanctioned events, I can see having some issues to finish them-off in due time, even if ultimately, I have the board control.
-3) Finally, while powerful, the witness-cryptic combo is certainly what slowed games down. If the board state is in their favor, you keep blocking with witness to bounce it back and draw a card, looking for drawing into a true removal for their goyf or whatever.
-4) Anyway, I have yet to kill with Kiora and I did enjoy playing this version (might be the "blue" thing)
-5) True story: no life gain MD is a pain...
Take this with a grain of salt as I only tested it against delver.deck
I'll keep you posted after several more tests to come.
Cheers,
Not a very big surprise here. With "n" DRS and maybe 1 Ooze MD, dredge will always have a hard time against Punishing Fit.
I'm surprised by your draw against D&T ? Maybe you could give us a more detailed story ?
SnS is a bitch, no matter what.
Enchantress could be a pain and I am always struggling to find the perfect tempo to blow a deed and prevent them from recovering before I kill them.
Finally, congratz for such BIG figures, I am really impressed by your result against storm/oops, I guess the added 2 TS MD were the thing ?
@Ralf-
-I actually do not run any DRS. 1 ooze md and 2 surgicals and 2 slaughter games post.
-As for the DnT if i remember the game 1 was long as i got waste/port to keep me off of anything relevant but i wasnt getting killed so i kept playing. game 2 i crushed and didnt have time to finish 3rd. it is odd to lose to DnT but if i remember it was a 2 lander in game 1 so took me too long to actually get smth going.
- Game 1 SnT is miserable but post board its actually not too bad. i run 2 more duress in board as well as the rebs and exile effects and so it can actually be hard for them to build up a hand that wins. expecially as liliana actually provides another avenue of cutting them off. i beat turn 2 emrakul off of show. he had turn 2 show in em, me i had land vet. i put a land into play. next turn i cabal which he lets resolve and i say force leaving him with i think a pierce. drop lily.
- the combo enchantress deck ran the 3 mana white enchantment that when you destory a perm of theirs they can do it to you. it was a real tough card for me to pay around and one of the other games i had to mull to 4 but i still think enchantress is a pretty favorable deck. both versions.
- I think while this deck is never going to be a combo killer i think post board it is very underrated. slaughter games is amazing, and for me i get 8 1 mana discard plus 3 lily which can be hard for decks like storm or oops to build up enough of a hand to go off out of. the rebs, surgicals and like also make it so they have a lot to fight through so while game 1s are pretty bad 2/3 can be good.
Tom4ik, what does your Punishing Fit list look like? That's what I run as well, so I'm curious what other people have going on with that these days.
- I get what you mean as with Scapeshift (1 Ooze MD, no DRS) I'm like 8-1 against dredge in sanctioned events.
- OK against D&T, that makes sense.
- Enchantress is kind of fifty/fifty. If you don't get to see a quick Deed you lose (the "quick" thing depends on your ability to snipe or not their draw engine -> do you get your discard going/AD or are you screwed by an early leyline of sanctity)
- Having 8- 1 cmc - discard + 3 lily is sure great against a lot of combo.deck until you meet combo.deck packing 4 leyline of sanctity in SB. But it is rather linked to your meta !
Are you on the "Protect the Troll" bandwagon with your punish list ?
@benofzongo
List is:
4 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtsieze
2 gitaxian probe
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
3 pernicious deed
2 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 liliana of the veil
1 garruk, primal hunter
My land base is the normal 6 fetches, 4 groves, 4 duals, 6 basics and tower and wolf run.
My SB is very skewed to meta but here it is:
2 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 surgical extraction
2 slaughter games
2 golgari charm
2 blood moon
3 red elemental blast
The reason for probe is not so much to 'crutch' the therapy hits but more there because with this version of the deck I love being able to see the hand to help decide on how I want to sculpt the game. I don't want more discard but probe fills that niche. I have tried it in the last 2 weeklies and i am still undecided. What I like is that in my opening hand it allows me to make the best choice in spell sequencing. What I dont like is that it makes those hands less stable as you do not know what that new card is.
It kind of ties back into my thinking that the way I play this deck is not as a tool-box style where I want tons of different cards but that I want a certain subset of cards every game. Liliana + Fire, Deed, and a big guy/green sun is what your looking for. I have already considered cutting Ooze (I have seen way too much graveyard based combo though) and/or Huntmaster but he has dominated games as well.
@Ralf
-about the leyline, yea I agree. Leyline screws me pretty hard for a lot of my hate. I do usually trim decay/deed for golgari charm as that does hit a few relevant enchantments in some combo games (or against some decks stops the empty plan). Also, if they have to mull to oblivion looking for leyline that buys time for the exile effects anyway
- I am ideally on the crash with the Troll plan, but with the wolfrun it usually doesnt matter any creature will do when you have the ability to +5 it.I get more scoops to boardstate without a threat then actually needing to play it out actually.
Why is there no top in this list? In my junk pod I have been very reliant on topdecks and top helps quite a bit.
Is there anyone that has tried creating a Jund POD list (with or without Punishing Fire package)?
I have been reading back thru the thread, but was unable to find anything (useful). Also i have looked thru a large amount of G/B/R creatures and some of them where cute, but not to exiting (yet).
I do not think that red does much for a pod deck. Both blue or white add much more to the pod game plan as well as better side board options. What red creatures were you thinking of specifically?
So far i found these to be of some interest, but it's not groundbreaking material. I was exploring the idea of a Jund POD version because i enjoy playing my Punishing Nic Fit list and thought maybe i could find something to give it an edge. But like you said, both Blue and White offer the better options (so far).
As i said, i enjoy playing PFire Nic Fit, but i was exploring towards another Nic Fit list. I have been puzzeling between 4c RectorStrix, Junk pod and bug pod. Can't make up my mind. I would love to see both planeswalkers and a combo finish in the list...
Inferno Titan
Flametongue Kavu
Olivia Voldaren
Huntmaster of the Fells
Mogis, God of Slaughter
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Anathemancer
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Xenagos, God of Revels
Master of Cruelties
Zealous Conscripts
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Sire of Insanity
Mindclaw Shaman
Is there someone who been playing the BUG walkers version of nic fit? Been slowly putting my list together. Haven't got many games in on it though. Here's my take
2 veteran explorer
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 baleful strix
4 jace, the mind sculptor
3 liliana of the veil
2 karn liberated
4 pernicious deed
4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
4 gitaxian probe
4 innocent blood
3 hymn to tourach
2 green Sun zenith
1 ponder
2 island
2 forest
3 swamp
2 tropical island
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
I like having GSZ since I'd rather draw them then the second explorer and because I run a little more creatures and the other walkers list.
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Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
I am still thinking about a Jund POD list and did seem to find some cool ability's and am coming closer to a possible creature package. It is still very rough, but i have broken it down into CMC and for the "unknown" creatures have given very short explanation. I do think that Purphoros, God of the Forge is the best option in this deck where he has synergy with Pod, persist and token generators. So even playing Garruk, Primal Hunter with this one is an option.
So what are your thoughts on further breaking down the creature package to a small strong package?
CMC 0:
Dryad Arbor
CMC 1:
Deathrite Shaman
Dragonmaster Outcast
(has to survive...)
Vexing Devil
(pressure, but dies to easy. And will mostly be unusable for Pod)
Flamekin Harbinger
(digs up the evoke creatures)
Norin the Wary
(synergy with Purphoros, God of the Forge)
CMC 2:
Mogg War Marshal
(Generates tokens, synergy with Purphoros, God of the Forge)
Young Pyromancer
(Generates tokens, synergy with Punishing Fire and Purphoros, God of the Forge)
Wall of Blossoms
(Pod fodder)
Wall of Roots
(Pod fodder)
Scavenging Ooze
CMC 3:
Anathemancer
(Possible finisher or just pressure. At least it is Pod fodder)
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Tuktuk the Explorer
(Pod fodder which gets a 5/5 token)
Goblin Sharpshooter
(Can shoot down an army of x/1's)
CMC 4:
Mogis, God of Slaughter
(sort of The Abyss, but gives a choice. Which will always be the less good one for us. Indistructible and builds pressure)
Purphoros, God of the Forge
(with Pod, persist and tokens can deal big amounts of damage, Indistructible and builds pressure)
Huntmaster of the Fells
(An allstar, has ETB life gain and token generation. When transforms deals damage or more lifegain and a token.
Wickerbough Elder
Murderous Redcap
(persist, direct damage)
Anger
(When he is in the graveyard he gives Haste to everything. But is easely removed by DRS or graveyard hate).
CMC 5:
Mindclaw Shaman
(Steal an instant or sorcery for free from your opponents hand seems cute/awesome)
Zealous Conscripts
(Steal a creature for one turn. Like an Emrukal of an SnT, but do that trick in your own turn...)
Shriekmaw
Ingot Chewer
Thunderblust
(Persist, pressure)
Acidic Slime
Thragtusk
CMC 6:
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
(Storms just has to scoop)
Sire of Insanity
(Near instant win end-of-turn?)
I've long theorized the potential of a Jund Pod list -- never actually put the work into creating one, though.
I see no reason why the core pod chain wouldn't be Redcap -> Conscripts untap Pod -> Kiki-Jiki go infinite.
Flame-tongue Kavu is still good enough, imo. 3-spot gives you Sprouting Thrinax, which I think is better than Tuktuk -- both are likely worse than Finks, though. Olivia is worth considering at 4, but I think that you'll find that for Jund-colored decks, the 4-spot is actually super clogged.
Xenagod is not good enough, sadly. Thundermaw is, though.
2-spot you'd likely want to consider Putrid Leech as a solid offensive and defensive ground-pounder.
Just some random thoughts -- I don't have time to go deep on this thought right now, but I do agree that Jund has its own unique tools and advantages over Junk and Bug (not the least of which is the ability to run Slaughter Games out of the board).
Nice catch with the Zealous Conscripts and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo. I suppose these would be at the end of the pod chain, meaning we have some space to go just a little lighter on the creature package and get some spells in return.
When Reclemation Sage (or whatever) comes out there would be a good CMC 3. I think that Sprouting Thrinax is strong in conjunction to Purphoros, God of the Forge. But for the latter the entire list has to be build around this tactic to make it work (i guess).
For a CMC 1 i have found: Goblin Arsonist which serves as both POD fodder and can deal with a lot of early threats like a Delver.
For CMC 2:
Vexing Shusher (altough i don't want this a POD fodder, but when you get POD online its not that necessary anymore)
Wall of Blossoms
Wall of Roots
Ravenous Rats
Black Cat
For CMC 3:
Goblin Sharpshooter Goblins, elves, Empty the Warren or w/e swarms. And he can be used as fodder once dealt with the swarm.
Dragon Egg flying token.
Eternal Witness
Kitchen Finks
CMC 4:
Mogis, God of Slaughter Might just be cute, but he looks scary to me.
Wickerbough Elder Will be replaced ones Reclemation Sage comes out.
Murderous Redcap
Flametongue Kavu
There where some other option, but theres soo many cards to dig thru...
EDIT: Fleshbag Marauder can also be very useful
EDIT 2: incoorperate the Melira, Sylvok Outcast combo.
Murderous Redcap
Thermopod
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Scorched Rusalka
Aerie Ouphes
Last edited by Bobmans; 06-24-2014 at 10:23 AM. Reason: (another) Brainfart
I would look to include some number of these:
Veteran
DRS
E.Wit
Finks
Redcap
Nekrataal
FTK
Conscripts
Kiki-Jiki
Thragtusk
Primeval Titan
Sire of Insanity
Bolt
Decay
Therapy
GSZ
Pod
The 2-spot is probably the weakest for Jund -- Junk gets Stoneforge and BUG gets Baleful Strix.
Something that I noticed while assembling the rough list is that a lot of these creatures double as creature control. That suggests that we could run fewer actual removal spells in this deck (perhaps just 4 Bolts, say), and just really double up on the creatures and creature tutors.
Note that you don't want to run cards that are bad without Pod, Bobmans -- something like Black Cat is just bad, as is Dragon Egg. Synergy is good, but you don't want to force it. You don't want to NEED a Pod for your deck to function reasonably.
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