Time to bring out your Pulse of the Fields everybody.
Entreat is useless most of time. It's only useful for 2 things:Originally Posted by Dzra
1. Float CB to flip Vortex and rift bolt
2. Race opponent's life total if Vortex resolves for whatever reasons.
Your goal in this match-up:
1. get CB into play asap.
2. float 2 and 6. 2 would keep Price, Revel, and Searing away. 6 would keep Fireblast away. Try to hard-counter anything that cost 3.
3. once you have a clean board and you're able to stick in a Jace with immediate 5 loyalty, you're way ahead. if CB-T is applied, it's pretty much over.
Like Sullivan said, you'll probably lose if you cannot find CB in time. The hidden gem in this match-up is actually StP. Lossett's only 2 StP can really hurt here. I save myself plenty of times by StP my own creature.
I played in a daily over the weekend. Still having time constraints but managed to win some games and go 2-2 beating Elves and Reanimator but going to time against D
Currently running this build. Considering dropping the Spell Pierces for the 2nd Ponder and 4th Counterbalance but I dislike getting hit by Hymm to Torach and Liliana and Spell Pierces are good vs fast combo.
Artifact (4)
Sensei's Divining Top
Blue (23)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
Multi Color (1)
1 Supreme Verdict
White (10)
1 Council's Judgement
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
Lands (22)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Council's Judgement
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
FortyThree:
Do you find that you get hands with multiple miracles in hand too often with 7 miracles. Most lists run 6.
Ltj999:
No main deck creatures blanks removal spells. Relics are good if your expecting grave yard decks or Tarmogoyfs. They do cycle if you see neither. Really depends on your meta.
Adryan
I don't think burn is easy. Even if you get an early Top Counterbalance they do have Susher after board and can get a Sulfuric Vortex down and Eidolon really needs to be deal with immediately. Stoneforge helps but it usually gets bolted and you still have to watch out for Vortex.
Andreas Schnass:
Really nice alters. Would be nice if you can get a clearer picture.
Dzra
I am not sure Leyline is actually that effective you need to mulligan for it and Miracles isn't a deck that likes mulliganing. That and it doesn't stop creatures, price of progress or sulfuric vortex.
@Einherjer
I might have to switch to 4 counter balance. Only running 3 right now. I do like Spell Pierces for early Hymm, Liliana and against combo though. Will have to try cutting Spell Pierce for the 4th Counterbalance and a 2nd Ponder.
I find I win vs burn if I get a quick counterbalance + answers for their creatures and they don't get Vortex. Otherwise I tend to lose.
I ran into a bunch of burn on MTGO in the dailies and tournament practice. There is less burn in paper but there might be an uptick with Burn winning the recent Star City.
Entreat really helps finish out the match as you need to be killing them as soon as possible.
Dzra
I was taking out my Jaces and Cliques maybe I should keep Cliques in?
This is what a board vs burn. List is above.
-2 Vendillion Clique
-3 Jace the Mindsculptor
-1 Supreme Verdict
-1 Tundra
+1 Batterskull
+1 Wear and Tear
+1 Counterspell
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
@Burn
I've been siding out all my terminus as my default plan against burn. The reasoning beeing that a terminus in hand is the same thing as a mulligan in the matchup. With fewer jace, brainstorm allready working over-time and a game that could be over by turn 4-5 I found relying on miracles beeing far to greedy. Beeing a six for Fireblast when we allready have CB is gravy. I run the stoneforge package in my sideboard but even without it I feel clique or snapcaster is enough to seal the deal.
Some notes about Eidolon.
Terminus becomes better (but I still think it's bad).
Spell Snare is nice (I sided it out earlier as it only stopped flame rift and maybe PoP).
Jace is actually fine since he can bounce the eidolon saving you atleast 6 damage.
My current sideboard plan for the matchup;
-1 jace -4 terminus -2 entreat
+2 flusterstorm +2 sfm +1 batterskull +1 council's judgment +1 venser
Venser is my current flex-slot and could be EE or wear/tear which would be sided in also.
I always hated loosing to burn.. What I did was add Warmth / Chill to my enlightened tutor sideboard, never lost a game after that! :)
One other play I love to make against burn is plowing my own creatures, especially angels.
They seldom expect that move, and is especially backbreaking for them when they overextend with a fireblast when you have 3 life left, and you plow your own snapcaster in response. Really puts them on tilt.
Nothing is as tough as admitting a point of discussion where you were very sure about. Yet it's one of the most important things in communication.
So here we go:
I admit I was wrong.
Ever since people brought up Keranos I stood up and manned the barricades on the opposite side. I havn't been afraid to argue for Entreat the Angels over Keranos, God of Storms for a long time. I've convinced quite a fair share of people but many stayed true to the blue and red god. And even though their arguments were lacklusterly worded and inappropriately used in the discussions we had, they were correct. So here they are: My reasons of why Keranos, God of Storms is a welcome addition to the deck, and what reasons have been the convincing one. (Not that I havn't heard them before - but they havn't really been brought up in the right context)
Keranos' role is one that isn't easily determined. It basically have to be in the slot of the third Entreat, any other change might be outright wrong. This very changes leads to the first misconception about this card. Even though it has(!) to take Entreats place, it does not replace its role, at least not entirely. It is a worse finisher than Entreat. Easily stated and correct in every aspect. It's worse, no discussion. But it doesn't have to be a better finisher than Entreat the Angels, as this isn't possible for this kind of deck. This card is basically 50% Entreat the Angels and 50% Jace, the Mind Sculptor with various up- and downgrades to both.
As said before. Keranos, God of Storms doesn't win games. He just happens to kill the opponent somewhere down the road, but this does not classify as a winning card. He also isn't able to bring as much oppressive power to the table as Jace, the Mind Sculptor is. Drawing a card or casting a free Lightning Bolt a turn does not compete with a Brainstorm every turn. Never.
But as said, there are things to this card that are easily overlookable. First and foremost: This card is god damn hard to kill, and not too easy to counter aswell. Being Spell Pierce proof while also blanking 99% of the options to destroy this thing makes it incredibly persistent in its effect on the battlefield. Keranos will never win the game as fast as Entreat, and he will never be able to give you enough cards to bury your opponent in CA just like Jace does. He does both, but in an inferior way. He will close out games, eventually. He will draw you a few cards, somewhere down the road. But due to his ability to stay onto the battlefield this is good enough.
The above mentioned split-nature of this card gets upgraded by the fact that this mix of cards makes it extremly powerful against a plethora of cards/situations/match-ups that are hard to overcome with a traditional Jace-Entreat-split. While both of the prior mentioned cards put up a fight against Liliana one way or another - Keranos just dominates her. Lightning Bolting every turn is just as good as it gets, - that's pretty powerful against Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The inevitable effect pushes this card over the top in the Shardless-MU where he also provides an unkillable out to nasty small creatures that made it through to the lategame, but aren't worth using Terminus on.
This repeatedly mentioned split nature of this card offers new ways of boarding too. I'd never ever bring in Entreat the Angels in the Mirror. Keranos? Any day of the week. I even had a situation where I could decide whether I'd cast an altered Jace, the Mind Sculptor and protect it with Force of Will and pitch Keranos or cast Keranos, and pitch the Jace. I did cast the Keranos, which lead to an concession of my mirror-opponent shortly after, due to him not playing Judgemental Miracles *coughs*.
I'd also never board in a 4th Jace in a match-up where I will be facing Punishing Fire. Keranos? Sure thing!
Let's summarize. Keranos is a split card between Entreat the Angels and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Its strength lies in its versatility, as well as it's steadfastness considering convential means of removing it. Additionally it opens up other boarding plans - generally leading to more live sideboard cards.
I do not claim that this card is a must-play but it is def. a valid addition to any optimized list at the moment, as the meta is just right for it, as of now.
So here we go. Let me know what you think! Do you agree? Do you disagree? Let me know.
Greetings
Hello fellow sourcers,
So I am considering picking up this deck. I am getting tired of Team America and the ups and downs of Delver in general. I want something more consistent and stable. I also feel like trying to play the best Jace, the Mind Sculptor deck. Where should I look for a stock list to get started? I know for sure that I prefer European style lists with more StPs than the Joe Lossett ones (no offense to Mr. Lossett) so I'd like a stock European list, if there is such a thing.
@Einherjer: I'm intrigued by playing Keranos in Miracles. Are you playing it in the main deck in place of an entreat or in the sb? Forgive me if you already mentioned it. Just jumping into this thread now.
In regards to Legacy:
Don't worry and welcome on board!
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgement
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Council's Judgement
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
Greetings
I would agree with this assessment, and I hope to test Keranos later this week as a one-of in my board.
To sort of add to the Keranos vs. 3rd Entreat:
One of the problems I and other Miracles players I know personally have had is drawing hands filled with... Well... Miracles. Running a full set of Brainstorms as well as a few Jaces can help mitigate these poor draws, but a hand full of miracles is still a nuissance, given that in the early game at least miracle cards are dead as long as they remain in our hand.
Keranos, as mentioned, is pitchable to force of will. This fact alone means that it is not 100% terrible in your hand. Do you want to pitch Keranos to force of will? No, not at all. But if it's the difference between a win and a loss, it becomes acceptable.
I don't think that this alone is an acceptable means by which to measure whether running this card is worth it, but I am willing to give it a shot.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Oh, and I always meant to ask Ein, why Disenchant over Wear//Tear?
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Yep, agreed that being blue is an upside, though it's not worth to mention as a standalone point.
I think I touched on Disenchant vs Wear/Tear already either here on TheSource or in the comments in any of my articles (speaking of which, Dragonslayer, you might want to check them out to get you started with Miracles the right way - link in my signature). But anyways, here are the points in short again.
First and foremost: Being able to cast it without any red source is important, as Volcanic Islands often have to be used as a Wasteland-magnet against many strategies. You keep your fetch, grab your Volcanic and cast your REB, only to have your Volcanic getting wasted shortly thereafter. In order to mitigate this very problem it seems pretty important to play as few red spells as possible, while maintaining the minimum of powerful REB-effects, concluding in the hopefully(!) correct and optimal number of red cards and Volcanics.
Being able to cast Disenchant of any combination of lands that you have in play already is a big plus too, if you don't want to shuffle (Miracles on top) or simply cannot. It's simply more efficient at what it does, compared to Wear/Tear which is certainly more powerful in some circumstances, the big one being the Mirror. Most of my points I made above do not matter for the mirror match where you can easily access all of your red sources very early in the game. Being able to cast it the fused way is a big plus too, in the mirror.
But with the addition of Councils Judgement to Miracles Disenchants arguments actually count a little stronger than ever before - as I find myself even grabbing more Tundras than ever before in the Mirror, due to the Councils Judgement. Being able to cast more and more cards relieably is important, even more so for Control.
Then there are some minor arguments like being able to cast Disenchant and Snapcaster Mage it back, which isn't going to work all the time with Wear/Tear and other stuff like this.
Summarizing: For a version with many cc1s (Ponder), few lands and even more so few Volcanic Islands and no Mountains and Snapcaster Mages Disenchant is superior, whereas Wear/Tear seems to be better for a version that does not have that many cc1 spells and has more red sources, as well as not playing 3 Snapcaster Mages. (I'd love to fit in a 4th, though!)
I hope this did answer your question - if it does not - let me know and I'll try again. I am well aware that this post is not as well structured as the one above, getting tired already, so just let me know.
Greetings
That sums it up nice enough for me, thanks!
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Einherjer, the list is interesting. Can you discuss your approach to sideboarding for various popular matchups?
I've covered the MUs with my old GP Paris list in one of my articles which you can find in my signature. Even though it doesn't have 4 Ponder and stuff but its still the same principles! This should give you a basic idea of how to sideboard with this kind of Miracles.
Once I've got more free time (in like 2 weeks) I will finally write a primer for this thread. From the scratch to the last bit, on my own. I'll cover the MUs there - so if you can wait like 3 weeks you should be fine.
If you cannot wait and are very concerned about one specific MU - dont hestiate to ask and I will gladly cover this very MU in depth. But covering all the MUs and all the sideboarding approaches(!) is tough, to be honest :)
Greetings
I'm glad to hear you are going to write a new primer Ein. Can't wait to read it. I was contemplating doing that myself once I get some experience with the deck under my belt, but better a master of the deck write it :)
As for MU advice, I was wondering if you have any input on the MUD matchup? Yes, it is an inconsistent fringe deck that I wouldn't worry about at a big tournament, but it is something I have to worry about at the local game store I currently play at, where there is at least one person who plays MUD frequently. If it matters at all he plays the cloudpost variant instead of the (I think) more common welder variant. From what I have seen it seems like a really bad matchup since their good hands are hard for miracles to deal with.
In regards to Legacy:
According to SCG stream, which may or may not be credible, Lossett lost to a MUD deck at Vegas. Most MUD Posts run Chalices over Welder. The obvious must-counters are:
1. Chalice
2. Sundering Titan
The thing about Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster is that some versions run Cavern on Construct. Good thing Titan is a Golem. They have some less obvious card choices like: Platinum Emperion, Staff of Nin, Bottled Cloister, and All is Dust.
How do aproach shardless bug, especially how many red spells do you side in? Keranos and 1 reb or more? Assuming no basic mountain in 75.
Also; how has Council's Judgment performed?
Hey, I'm wondering if you guys have any insight on the burn matchup? I was the 2nd place player at SCG Vegas, and I have to admit to not being familiar with the matchup at all. I believe I did
+1 EE
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Wear // Tear
+1 Sulfur Elemental
-2 Terminus
-2 Ponder
-1 Entreat
-1 Force of Will
against Burn. Sulfur Elemental was probably not correct, but I wanted a blocker. I didn't want to Ponder too much into Eidolon of the Great Revels, so they came out.
I'm sure my play wasn't spectacular either. Game 1, I felt like a Plains + Top + Counterbalance + some other stuff on 6 cards was more playable than a 5 card hand on the draw. Then, I was considering racing with my Angel token instead of blocking Eidolon, since we were both at 14 with a Vortex on board. In the end, I felt like I had to block and hope for the Angel to eat a Lavamancer activation and hope to top my one out to Vortex. Searing Blaze sort of ended any hope I had.
Game 2, I opened Counterbalance + Top + Pierce in hand, and I topped on my second upkeep instead of slamming Counterbalance so I could Pierce Sulfuric Vortex if necessary. The Vexing Shusher sort of wrecked me. I had a bit of hope after I Terminus'ed it away, but I Brainstormed a one drop back on top because I thought he had a one drop he wanted to play with Vexing Shusher, and I didn't think he would keep Price of Progress against me.
I had played against Burn a few other times over the weekend, and I've been on the losing end more than the winning end by a small margin...
@funnywille: Read the last 2 pages, we've talked about the Burn-MU quite a lot there :)
@MUD: Lol, someone asked me on Twitter too. This MU seems to trouble everybody. First, I'll you what my score in high-level-tournaments is. 0-1-1. Yes, that spectatular! Even though this deck is by far easier to beat than MUD it's still troublesome, at least some variants. If they have the Cloudpost-engine it's super tough, because its basically Cloudpost. If they play the Vintage-version then we have the best shot, as killing and countering is no problem. But if they play the Port+Skull - version it's tough once again, at least when the opponent knows how to operate this deck. As said previously, I wouldn't worry too much about this MU. It is winable, but a decent keep vs unknown will probably not cut it. All you basically want is a Top, Removal and Counterspells. Let their easy lockpieces resolve (like sphere of resistance, trinisphere and other stuff) and try to get them by just dealing with their creatures and Karn.
@Shardless BUG: Glad you picked the worst MU of them all :D - Sure let's get into it.
Shardless BUG is one of the decks in the current metagame that has the best shot of supressing Miracles in the long run of a tournament - meaning it is def. possible for Miracles to displatch one Shardless BUG on its way for the Top8, but also that reaching Top8 is going to be very tough if there are many Shardless BUG players in the room, because they'll get you, eventually. Their strengths lie in the fact that they abuse many angles of attack, reaching from Tarmogoyf beatdown, to creating CA with Ancestral Vision to Planeswalkers. Dealing with one, sometimes even two angles is no problem at all. Getting to fight the war on all three angles on the other hand is a tough one, and the basic reason why this MU isn't good at all. I tested the MU against one of the best Shardless-players (Lejay) and our 20-match-test-row ended in a fashion that represents the percentage of how this MU plays out if neither of the decks is overly tuned to beat the other one. --> 9:11. I obviously tested this MU more than just 20 games, but games against masters of their deck add more value to the testing than hundreds of matches against somebody.
Due to the natura of their restrictive deckbuilding you shouldn't worry about any countermagic, with the exception of the omnipresent Force of Will. This makes resolving Entreat the Angels pretty easy, which wins the game on the spot, most of the time. Preboard they might have Toxic Deluge, however they can't afford to keep it in in the sideboarded games and will probably rely on something like Maelstrom Pulse. - so keep those Angels flashy if you can.
So let's get to how to board:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgement
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Council's Judgement
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
There is no such thing as a 100% correct boarding plan. There's a general direction that's correct and you can choose to which extent you will follow this approach, but following its direction is mandatory.
So first we are looking at the sideboard, what do we want in the sideboarded games?
Keranos is obviously very good against Shardless BUG, and very good doesn't even catch how insane he is there. Council's Judgement deals with everything but Creeping Tar Pit - sure. Vendilion Cliques pressure Planeswalkers, can kill the opponent and are able to chump-block, easy include. Disenchant will answer some evil stuff like Sylvan Library, at the very worst it deals with a Shardless Agent. Flusterstorms aren't good here. Counterspell is easily on of the best cards here, auto-include. Engineered Explosives are very potent when it comes to dealing with various threats from multiple angles. So it's correct to put them in. REBs and Pyros are very good as Jace + Vision are two of the main-threats here, whereas RIP isn't good enough. So we now have:
1 Keranos
1 Judgement
2 Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
2 EE
2 REB
1 Pyro
That's 11 cards, which is quite a lot. Now let's look at we can take out:
Force of Will is not where we want to be, due to the nature of FoW, you all know that. Counterbalance is pretty unrelieable, not only due to Decay but mostly due to the fact that we have to deploy Counterbalance fast, in order to counter Vision, which then let's them Decay it EoT or in their Upkeep, leaving us with less ressources and therefore ensuring their Vision to resolve, which is crucial. Swords to Plowshares isn't at its best here, too, but is still a powerful tool to deal with a card like Creeping Tar Pit, which can be rather annoying to handle, otherwise.
The first thing you have to ask yourself is whether you want all 3 REB or only 2. Going less than 2 is no choice, as REB answers Jace+Vision, which is very crucial to our game plan. I'd go with three in the second game, and cut to two if I see enourmous amounts of Wastelands. But generally it might be correct to take all 4.
The next step to think about is how afraid you are of Sylvan Library and other mean enchantments/artefacts. You do have access to up to 5 answers to it, being 2 Judgement, 2 EE and 1 Disenchant. Despite the fact that EE does not deal with Null Rod it might be too much. I think that 4 is the minimum, and 5 being the maximum, with Disenchant being the 5th card, which can get the axe, depending on how you wish to board.
From all the cards that are coming out, Swords to Plowshares is the one that can stay the most, so this should be the place where fill mainboarded cards back to the sideboarded deck should you decide to not include all the possible options. So if you want to be on the safer side you can bring in less REBs and keep more Swords.
This leaves me with the following approach, but as said above, you can easily board a card more or less, the direction is all that matters here.
-4 Force of Will
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Counterspell
+1 Keranos, God of Storms
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Council's Judgement
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
General tips for the MU:
Utilize Terminus to combat their enourmous CA.
Counter Vision with Counterspell as you can. It may not be worth countering with your Force of Will, though - at least if you don't hardcast it.
Be patient with the deployance of your game-ending threats (Jace, Entreat, Keranos)
Counterbalance can counter Ancestral Vision with a Land on top
Waste most of your effort on their Planeswalkers + Vision. Their creatures will be dealt with, eventually. (hopefully)
Okay, well this wasn't as extensive as I'd have liked it to be, but I gotta head to university now, if anything is unclear, leave a comment below and I'll go into more detail. Do you disagree? I'd gladly hear your counter-opinion!
Greetings
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