Counter half hits Show and Tell, the Miracles, Glimpse, N.O., Infernal Tutor / Burning Wish, Reanimate, Exhume, Time Spiral, Hymn.Originally Posted by btm10
(Sorry for double post.)
I played BUG control at a small (22) tournament and went 3-0-2 (IDs), won t8, lost t4 today, and liked my list well enough to share. I spent maybe 10-15 hours testing through a basic Legacy gauntlet with several different versions, starting with the 4 DRS, 4TNN, 3Strix, 1 Clique, 3/3 Walkers list that has been reasonable successful lately (which I ran at a smaller event last week and went 4-1). I eventually ended up with this 75:
3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
10 BUG Fetch
4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 JTMS
3 LotV
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
1 Hymn
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
Board (15)
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
1 Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Disfigure
2 Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
-No basics. I tried Island+Swamp some in testing, but most of my spells are so expensive that if I'm in Wasteland trouble, Island+Swamp isn't good enough anyway. Playing DNT was dreadful when they started porting. This means Moon is really good against me, of course, but I wasn't going to win through it with 2 basics anyway.
-Lots of redundant/similar 1 offs which are worse in duplicates but fine by themselves.
-The Goyfs provided a really solid clock against combo, and I liked having them. This ties into..
-Liliana: very good at most of what she does, but puts you in an awkward position as a UBx control deck, because your ideal scenario often means you're both hellbent but you have the advantage, which makes counterspells pretty awkward and situational spells (and there are lots) all worse. In testing, I often found myself stabilizing and taking half-control with a Liliana, looking like I had a reasonable advantage, and then losing lots of ground to a good top-deck. And meanwhile I'm pitching discard spells and Abrupt Decays to keep their hand empty. Hitting Lily+Jace is great, but Lily+ (say) Deathrite Shaman is not really good enough in many matches, and makes my deck-full-of-answers much worse, since I'm in topdeck mode too and grinding away can be real slow. Goyf was great here for ending the game. Library+Lily was insane, for floating a couple answers for when you need them. I had one game against UWR Delver, both in topdeck mode after Lily is bolted, with Library floating Decay+Pierce and got to perfectly plod through his drawn Batterskull by sequencing the answers perfectly. The biggest thing I wanted, in grindy matches, was the ability to float answers so that Lily's discard goes from advantageous to super-insane. I think SDT is probably the best way to do this (besides Jace), and I'll probably include 2 maindeck (over library and hymn).
Honestly, I think solving the Lily question better is the main thing this deck has to do. By analogy, the Delver/Tempo ideal is to land a Delver and then keep the game in the "early" game while you press them out. Stop their mana development so they play weak cards and soft counter the stuff they do have while your board-advantages takes it home. With Lily, you want to grind them down in the mid/late-game mode while everyone is hellbent. Jund sorta does this in the mid-game, where they leave you resource-constrained with discard->Lily, then use Bob for card advantage and get aggressive with stuff like Bolt and Elf. BUG probably has even better early disruption and even more powerful possible late-game, and TNN trashes a lot of the fair decks, but it has a somewhat hollow midgame if you don't already have TNN/Tar Pit, and it's too slow if it does. Not sure what else could go in there, but hoping to hit something useful before they hit running creatures or a way to deal with Lily isn't good enough, and I think that's a spot this deck can get into.
(Edit note: I realize the mid-game/Lily role might best be fit by Stoneforge Mystic, and that impulse just leads to Deathblade. That's entirely possible.)
Last edited by anwei; 06-29-2014 at 11:19 AM.
It took me a second to realize that you weren't running Leyline of the Void in your main. :) cool list, still would like to see some basics.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
First, congrats on your finish. I agree that some more basics would be better - I'm going to start testing a build of the deck with a manabase inspired by Miracles', and hopefully it doesn't just turn into Veteran Walkers.
On Liliana, the more I play this deck, the more I've come to think of her as one of the most difficult cards in the deck to use correctly. When I first started playing Shardless and BUG Delver, I'd be extremely aggressive with her +1 to make sure I had the -2 up as much as possible, and could angle for her ultimate. Lili + Sylvan or Lili + Jace is obviously great, but sometimes I've found that you really just want to do nothing. If you have her at 4 or 5 with 1 card in hand, it's very likely correct to just pass if you aren't being pressured by creatures or have a TNN or Tar Pit offense going. Under most circumstances, I only go hellbent if my opponent is also hellbent and I'm not threatened by a single topdeck (against Storm, for instance) or if any threat they do topdeck is answered by either her -2 or my board (for example, if my opponent can topdeck a Jace and I have a TNN or Tar Pit out, +1 is probably a fine line). Early on, before you're hellbent, being able to look at your opponent's hand with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek can be invaluable in knowing which ability (if any) to use.
I did some similar gauntlet testing to what you did with Dimir Charm and it was really good in the Spell Pierce Slot. I use it as a removal spell most often, but the counter option is nice as well, if a little narrow. I think some of your colored mana problems (when you were trying basics) might have been from the Tarmogoyfs - going from 5 spells for which you need G to 9, so it's less a green splash for Decay, Sylvan and DRS's G ability, and more a full third color. How did the Goyfs feel vs. non-combo decks? I totally get the need for a clock in those matchups, especially Sneak and Show, but do did you ever find yourself awkwardly positioned against Delver or D&T in making their removal spells into good draws they otherwise wouldn't have been? And if you end up liking Top over Library in testing, will you also give Counterbalance a try? And how was the Snap?
Yes, certainly, and I did this a lot. But a huge swath of the deck is 1-for-1 grinding them out of options until the planeswalkers take over, and in those positions, it's not hard to end up in the draw, play my land or guy, +1 mode. Discard is usually moot here, so you +1. What about Spell Pierce or Decay or Deluge or Force? If they are holding BBE and can't cast it on 3 lands, you're going to be sad soon, and leaving them with 1 in hand gives them a lot of draws to find the 4th land. Sometimes it's certainly correct to not use her, but you often have to, and building a deck with tons of attrition into 3 Lily needs to believe that it's going to draw into something powerful enough to justify this sooner than they are. (This is more true against, e.g., Delver decks than against something like Shardless or Deathblade that can hit planeswalkers just like you, or even Storm, when they can slowly cast artifact mana into Tutor/PiF/AdNaus.) Floating relevant spells that you can access at instant speed, selection in your topdecks, and cards like Goyf that try to wrap things up asap are very good in this position.
Yea, I really like it as the 6th removal spell. We're mostly already consigned, unfortunately, to powerful 2-mana removal spells over cards like Disfigure and Dismember, so it's on pace with the 2nd Edict or 4th Decay in that regard, but is also blue (and FoW count is a constant issue when boarding against many decks, since we have so much disruption in black) and very relevant as a counterspell. I actually used the fateseal mode a couple times to feed Shaman and/or add a turn of topdeck lock as well. I wouldn't want 2, but 1 was nice.
I did more testing and played a previous event without Goyfs, to the same conclusion. Forest was not really an option, so I played with Island and Swamp among 23 lands, and it was way too greedy (in a deck with this many colors, basics are greedy, not duals). Against decks playing 4+ Wasteland effects (Stifle, Loam, Port, etc.), you can't function off 2 lands anyway - you can't cast any of your best cards. So say you fetched basics and have a 3rd land of your choice: what do you want? BG for Charm/Decay, BB for Lily, UU for TNN, but that's impossible. Decay+Charm in one turn is impossible. Discard+Lily is impossible. Leaving up DRS mana severely restricts your other options. When testing against DnT or Rug Delver, with basics in my deck, things went much better when fetching out duals anyway.
Blood Moon already kills you. If you play Forest (bad), fetched out B/G early, are holding Decay, don't have Force, it lets you tap out to cast stuff and not fear it. I've never played a Blood Moon deck where things went like that. So instead, you get T1 moon'd and you have 2 basics somewhere in your deck and they have 35 turns to kill you. If you have discard/force/DRS, you're potentially in the game, but basics aren't getting you much closer. Like calculating your outs to a resolved Show and Tell, the goal (in this deck) is to just not get yourself in that situation in the first place, and then don't commit too many costly deckbuilding decisions to dealing with that situation.
Price of Progress is not good. That's a card I prefer not to eat off the top, in the Lily game. I think I Sylvan'd from 7 to 3 in one game to take my 5th land and Force, then didn't +1 Lily, to keep Force. Basics would be better in that match, and you might lose some games to Price, but I don't think that's worth it.
Goyf was better than expected, primarily because of the aforementioned Lily standoffs. Sure, they can topdeck Swords/Decay/RiP, but Decay was already good if Lily is out, and they only have like 3-4 turns to find one. Plus, Delver/DnT removal is already good against DRS/Strix, both of which can cold a lot of their strategy, so it's not like they were that bad.
Probably won't try Counterbalance, though it does provide an on-board solution to topdecks - if I dropped the Goyfs, it might not be a bad boarded option, in for removal, for games where I feared their topdecks more. The challenge of Counterbalance is usually addressing the board, so the removal has to stay in or increase in speed/power against fair decks, which means it's filing the role of discard in what the deck needs to deal with, even if discard+CB have a midgame synergy (as CB shores up the weakness of discard, i.e., topdecking). At that point, Counterbalance can fully replace Lily as a mid-/late-game denial engine, black becomes white for faster/more powerful removal, and we're headed toward miracles.
Last edited by anwei; 06-29-2014 at 07:28 PM.
Thanks for responding. I'm not sure I agree - I think that once you've dropped the basics and countermagic and added Goyf you're better off playing Shardless for the explosiveness, and even then you're running basics. On the Top point, I think Sylvan is better because it's better against combo, midrange, and in the control mirror and isn't worse against tempo. I think Counterbalance is a better addition to the deck than Tarmogoyf if we're running Top because CB/Top lock plays better with what we're trying to achieve.
One thing I definitely agree with is the need for more direct card drawing and that basics are somewhat greedy. That being said, I still think that the basic lands are correct. I've lost far more games to RUG and Death and Taxes brcause I failed to reach 4 mana than because I was unable to get UU or BB because I had fetched basics. In fact, I think that with 1 Island, 1 Swamp, RUG is a pretty favorable matchup, and has improved after testing a Wasteland-less 2 Island, 2 Swamp, 1 Forest configuration. I simply won't play without either Deed or Dread of Night in the board against D&T. On card drawing, I'm going to find room for 2 Fact or Fiction. To ease the mana requirements I've started testing Mana Leak over Counterspell. It seems good, but I'm not convinced yet.
Finally, if Marc Meyer reads this thread, I'd love to see a report and thoughts on the deck.
Last edited by btm10; 07-02-2014 at 07:50 AM.
(Typing on an iPad - I should preface saying that if I sound to-the-point, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, im just trying to respond and explain my thinking. I love this medium for getting lots of input flowing.)
The lists modeled after Phimus' are nearly-uniformly running 0 basics and only FoW as a maindeck counter - you can debate those merits, but that's not exactly my getting crazy or anything. The burden of breaking form with results is on playing any basics, since most lists don't. I do agree that losing to wasteland happens more from not reaching 4 mana than getting the right colors, but running 2 basics doesn't do anything about getting you to 4 mana if you're actually casting spells (and not just sitting on UB until you crack your fetches).
Bug delver is undoubtedly a better aggressive Goyf deck (not sure about shardless as explosive; it's differently-grindy), but I'm not playing goyf as an aggressive creature. He's there as a combo clock, but mainly as a mid-game quick-action card. Sylvan Library is often better at quick card advantage or at mana conservancy, but i want to try top (not sure I'd end up with it) for a different reason: to aggressively find answers when needed - either through spin, draw, spin, fetch, spin, or by flipping to get a counter at instant speed when hellbent.
Maybe to restate on cb: I do think it's more what we're trying to do than goyf, but I think we have enough of that, and there's no room for more, especially as board-impotent as counterbalance. That suggestion definitely had me thinking about how I would build a lily-counterbalance deck, but I don't think this is it.
I don't think that you're being antagonistic at all, and agree that these discussions are exactly what the forums are for. I'm doing the same thing, I hope. Also, this was written over the course of several hours when I had a moment to pound out a sentence, so I hope it's coherent.
I agree, and acknowledge that my approach is modified from what has been winning. It's one of the reasons I really hope that someone (Pimus, Mark, Steve, anyone else I've forgotten) who has done well with the deck large event can offer commentary. That being said, I've been extremely dissatisfied with both the all-nonbasics lists (my local has 2 Painter players in addition to people on RUG and Death and Taxes) and the all-discard plan. The former is a metagame call - my list can even fetch the basic forest - but I'll probably go back to it being a Bayou and maybe add the 9th fetch and 4th Sea, and accept losing to Painter. Really, RUG is relatively favorable without the basics already (they have a very hard time with TNN), but the basics do make it easier. D&T is just a nightmare without basics, though.The lists modeled after Phimus' are nearly-uniformly running 0 basics and only FoW as a maindeck counter - you can debate those merits, but that's not exactly my getting crazy or anything. The burden of breaking form with results is on playing any basics, since most lists don't. I do agree that losing to wasteland happens more from not reaching 4 mana than getting the right colors, but running 2 basics doesn't do anything about getting you to 4 mana if you're actually casting spells (and not just sitting on UB until you crack your fetches).
In the case of additional counters over additional discard - there have been a number of situations where I've Thoughtseized people only to see hands full of gas that can't be disrupted with pinpoint discard. In tempo matches Inquisition is great because it's just another 1-for-1 answer to their threats or their disruption, and the information is also helpful because it lets you know what you can throw away with Brainstorm or Liliana, what to dig for, and how much countermagic/discard they have. The same is (largely) true against other control decks or midrange decks. Against combo, however, I feel like we either need Hymn to put ourselves ahead or coutermagic to effectively X-for-1 them and buy additional turns because they invest a turn's worth of mana setting up the thing you ultimately counter. Hymn might be better here, but it's also dead in the late game, especially with Liliana. This is also why I'm running the fourth Force.
Sorry if I restated what you had already responded to about Counterbalance. I think the larger point I was trying to make about basics, discard, Tarmogoyf, and Counterbalance is that BUG Control feels very hemmed in by related strategies: Delver is the aggro-control deck, Shardless is the grindy + huge bombs deck, and BUG Landstill at the super-controlling-probably-too-grindy-to-exist deck. Maybe it's because I've come to this deck from Shardless (and to Shardless from Delver), but I feel like the addition of an highly aggressive creature means running additional aggressive options, which are better facilitated by Shardless Agent or the Delver shell; I see this deck as a more aggressive BUG Landstill, not as Shardless BUG without Shardless Agent (if that makes sense). I agree that a Liliana-Counterbalance deck would be promising, but you're probably right in that this deck already has sufficiently demanding colored mana requirements that this isn't it. Top could be very good and I'm definitely interested in your results, although my current guess is that the mana requirements will end up being similar to those of 1-mana coutnermagic, which may prove too much to do every turn. But I'm definitely interested in what you find.Bug delver is undoubtedly a better aggressive Goyf deck (not sure about shardless as explosive; it's differently-grindy), but I'm not playing goyf as an aggressive creature. He's there as a combo clock, but mainly as a mid-game quick-action card. Sylvan Library is often better at quick card advantage or at mana conservancy, but i want to try top (not sure I'd end up with it) for a different reason: to aggressively find answers when needed - either through spin, draw, spin, fetch, spin, or by flipping to get a counter at instant speed when hellbent.
Maybe to restate on cb: I do think it's more what we're trying to do than goyf, but I think we have enough of that, and there's no room for more, especially as board-impotent as counterbalance. That suggestion definitely had me thinking about how I would build a lily-counterbalance deck, but I don't think this is it.
One thing I think I'm going to test (in addition to, but not at the same time as, Fact or Fiction) is MD equipment. I've been off and on with Jitte out of the board, but in a large, unknown meta it's probably correct, and I board it in a lot whenever I'm not playing in my local metagame. Finding 1-2 slots for a Sword and/or a Jitte main doesn't seem too bad, and Strix is usually an excellent equipment carrier. The fact that the equipment is colorless also solves the problem of additional threats/creatures being green (Tarmogoyf) or requiring double colored mana of one color (TNN and Tombstalker).
Playing the Death and Taxes match-up is actually when I decided to drop the basics. Again, when you want 4+ mana with lots of colored requirements, 2 basics doesn't do enough, plays into their Ports.
Yea, I'm playing 5 counters and 1 Hymn, and definitely could see the 4th Force in many metas - I think it's fine, but that I still have a lot of T1 interaction (on the play) without it, and would rather minimize the 2-for-1 against fair decks when I have so many cards that trade with theirs.
I think it occupies the same general timing/position as BUG Landstill, but with a complementary strategy. Landstill wants to bide its time with a hand of responses as it Bloods/Deeds away their permanents. This deck wants to grind out everything they have, and still have TNN in play or an on-board edict ready for whatever. (I just flipped through recent BugStill lists and was surprised to find Lily-heavy lists, though they rarely run many counters, compared to the Jace-only lists.)
Goyf is like a 3-way split card that says: Give your combo opponent a 3-turn clock, force your aggro opponent to deal with a 4/5 wall, or dare your hellbent opponent to draw into something relevant before he dies. If there was a card that said "Discard your hand: opponent discards their hand; each player has a maximum hand size of 0", I would play Goyf in that deck. Way easier to answer Goyf than TNN, but when you're in that situation, Goyf makes them have it more quickly or lose. This deck is that imaginary card - pitch their hand, counter their spells, kill their stuff, then win. I like having Goyf in the "win" chapter. That is a different role than in Shardless, where early discard+pressure buys time to hit your second (Ancestral Visions) wind.
Yea, I like this a lot. I was boarding 2 Jittes and brought them in often (maybe too much), as it feels really unfair with TNN and, as you say, is great with Strix. In the terms of the argument I keep making, Jitte lets you store on-board answers when playing a top-deck war, *and* let's you win the game quickly (with any creature), and that's really strong.
Coming from BUG Delver, I am now experimenting with this deck. I recognize very much the Liliana problem mentioned here before, wanting to use her +1, but only being able to do so by discarding all your answers. In BUG Delver it's MUCH easier to play her, for that matter.
Some solutions have been discussed, an idea that popped up with me: Could we not move to a version where we remove counters & spot removal and go to more discard (4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize, to at least have a small chance against combo G1) and Deeds? It could look something like this I guess:
23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis (could also be Goyfs since we are aiming for emptying their hand)
4 Baleful Strix
14 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
11 OTHER SPELLS
3/4 Liliana of the Veil
3/4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Pernicious Deed
Another option would be replacing the Liliana's. Can we not go back to Snapcasters? There is a lot of good stuff to flash back. Are there any other BUG 3 mana planeswalkers that could replace her?
I'm pretty new to the deck, so forgive me if I'm saying silly things. I think the deck has a lot of potential, so I would like to discuss!
To qualify the Liliana "problem," she's one of the best cards in the deck, and being in the position where they're hellbent with no board and way to gain momentum and you have on-board removal is awesome: you're a big favorite to win. It has the unfortunate side effect of making many of the grindy, one-for-one cards that got you here (targetted discard, removal, counters) much worse going forward, as you can draw dead "answers" while you're looking for a better/faster way to end the game (probably Jace, TNN/Tar Pit, DRS, Strix, in that order). Those are all pretty reasonable, but it'd be nice to further minimize their ability to play through that situation. That's what I'd want from Goyf/SDT/Counterbalance, in different ways and different decks. But that's the arc: Step 1 Grind Down (Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay), Step 2 Liliana has them under her thumb, Step 3 Finishing. Goyf/Jace/TNN/Tar Pit are good in Step 3, and if you're fast enough (Goyf), they can't ge tout. SDT is a candidate for a better Step 2, as floated answers make your Lily soft lock even better (so something like Lingering Souls doesn't ruin your day).
So on your specific suggestions:
-I would not want to cut counters/removal for the reason that they're bad "Step 2" topdecks - they're the cards that get you to Step 2. You have to be able to answer the stuff they're trying to do, or you're dead before you get to your mid-game.
-Deed is really slow, and requires a lot of deck-building constraint to not make your stuff bad. The two decks that use it well sort of show this: Nic Fit can power into the mana cost off explorers, while playing expensive enough cards to dodge its effect; Bugstill plays hyper-efficient answers to what they're doing (Innocent Blood, Spell Snare), which draw out the game (along with Standstill) until they have Deed available. It's not a terrible option in the abstract, or as a versatile answer, but it can't bear the weight of being your main removal option. Delver decks will eat you.
I think anwei's statements are correct. I've used Deed only to combat particular local metas; if you expect a lot of Painter and Death and Taxes it's fine. Otherwise it's too expensive. So after testing a small gauntlet (3 games preboard, 3 post) against Death and Taxes, Deathblade, BUG and RUG Delvers, and ANT, this is what I'm working with
Land (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Creeping Tar Pit
Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Library Manipulation (6)
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fact or Fiction
Disruption/Answers (17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Dimir Charm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I initially tested the equipment main like I mentioned earlier in about 5 matches online. If you connect with TNN + equpiment, it's just as good as it is in Blade decks (i.e., you generally just win). The downside is that if you only have equipment + DRS you end up in a lot of awkward situations where you need the utility options on DRS but also want Jitte counters or Sword triggers (I tried Fire and Ice because it could serve a creature removal function and draws cards). I found myself boarding Sword out in almost every match (I left it in against BUG Delver), and against too many decks Jitte was just taking up mana to play and equip, thus delaying other plays, and there were times that I had to set up Jitte + TNN as removal where the 4th Decay or another removal spell would've cost half as much. In short: Jitte is so busted in some matchups that you want to run it in the board for those matchups (Elves, Death and Taxes), but it's often too expensive to make the cut in other matchups, so it leaves the main. I still wanted to try Fact or Fiction, and initially just swapped the equipment for FoF and a singleton Deluge that I had been meaning to try. The Deluge was even better than I expected, and I'm currently pretty happy with Fact as well. Deluge obviously doesn't play well with Strix, so I dropped the Strixes and added another Deluge and returned the deck otherwise to the original configuration. I almost dropped the second Edict for a more flexible piece of disruption like a second Dimir Charm, second maindeck Inquisition of Kozilek, or a counter of some sort, but without Strix you want the spot removal at 2 mana. I'm going to play in my local 4-5 round event with this list this week and post my results. I think this is a promising direction, but I'm not totally sold on it yet.
Thanks guys for the replies. Played the deck in a (37 man) tournament yesterday for the first time and ended up 8th, just making top 8. Unfortunately I lost to the number 1 seed, some super duper RUG player who always makes top 8 there.
I was very, very satisfied with the deck. I won to Elves (wow, that Charm and Deluge are blowouts!), Nic Fit, Food Chain (close one) and Jund. Lost to Instant Reanimator and Deathblade. These 2 did not at all feel unwinnable though.
The plan worked exactly like you describe anwei. Even if you dont have your DRS/Thoughtseize, it's easy to just play fetch and say go for the first two turns. Abrupt Decay & Edict clear the threats ans Strix is a bomb to get to the mid game. What a great card that is.
I did not end up in a lot of Liliana trouble fortunately. Had 1 or 2 games where both Jace and Lili landed, that's GG. But most of the time even TNN and Tar Pit + some DRS activation were enough to seal the deal after some initial disrupting.
For reference:
23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tarmogoyf
19 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
6 OTHER SPELLS
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
15 SIDEBOARD
1 Envelop
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Moving forward I will not change too much. Didn't see too much combo, so I will swap the mainboard Spell Pierce with the SB Maelstrom Pulse. I will also add another Goyf, maybe at the expense of Sylvan Library. We already have so much ways to draw and filter, I didn't miss it if I didnt have it.
Looking forward to your report btm!
I went 4-1 last night to finish second in our local event - 19 people showed, giving us 5 rounds of Swiss with prizes going down to 5th place. Some last minute testing coupled with pre-tournament discussions and observations of which decks showed up crystallized a few problems I had been having with the sideboard, so that is substantially revised from the list I posted. My final 75 was:
Lands (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Disruption/Answers (18)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dimir Charm
Draw/Manipulation (6)
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fact or Fiction
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
This sideboard is deliberately skewed toward beating combo, midrange, and other control decks while being a little more susceptible to tempo. This plan worked out well as I'll detail below, especially Pithing Needle and the extra Sylvan Library.
Round 1: Oliver with Jund-Pox-Depths
I'm not sure of the proper name of this deck, but it's a very, very bad matchup. He wins the die roll and opens Fetch, Mox Diamond pitching another fetch leading me to put him on a Lands variant. I play a land and Thoughtseize and see Entomb, Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, Verdant Catacombs. I likely misplay by taking Smallpox instead of Entomb, but this line either slowed him down a turn in terms of developing his board (if he wasted me) or kept my land around (if he didn't) and it also saved me a card in hand. He EOT Entombs a Life from the Loam, dredges it on his draw step, fetches a Bayou, then Loams back the fetches. I topdeck a DRS but he dies to Decay and I get Wasteland/Loam locked. Force gives some counterplay here, but my TNN shows up too late and gets Liliana'ed before he can make a difference. Game two played out similarly, with Raven's Crime + Life from the Loam doing an excellent Mind Twist impersonation (I got hit for 2 on his turn 1, 3 on his turn 2, and was in topdeck mode after that). I did manage to Needle Wasteland on turn 1, but it didn't matter.
Sideboarding
Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Dimir Charm, 1 Vendillion Clique
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Hymn to Tourach
(0-1 Matches, 0-2 Games)
Round 2: Bye (1-1 Matches, 0-2 Games)
Round 3: Paul with Burn
I lose the die roll, mull to 6, and he promptly suspends Rift Bolt. Turn 1 Thoughtseize shows Lava Spike, Bolt, Chain, and a Goblin Guide. My hand has Decay for the Guide so I let him play it and take a Bolt. I take 3 from Rift Bolt, then he drops Goblin Guide and swings, rewarding me for being stingy by giving me a Trop. I let Guide swing in one more time so I can Thoughtseize the Chain while holding up Brainstorm to drop another land on top. The Brainstorm gives me a TNN, Force, and DRS to go along with the Liliana in my hand. I throw back a Sea and put Lili underneath, then he Spikes me down to 5. I drop DRS and pass holding up Force, let Guide trigger one more time and kill it with Decay before damage. I get Bolted down to 2 life, but Lili comes down next turn and starts to take over while a TNN goes to work on him. This ends up being too much for him as both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Price of Progress go down to Liliana and Force of Will, respectively, while DRS chows down on his dead Goblin Guides and Eidolon and I find Sylvan, then Jace to keep guys going to my graveyard for Deathrite to keep me alive. I eke out a win a 3 life. Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and can't answer the triple Goblin Guide opener. Game 3 I keep 7 that includes 3 lands, Inquisition, Force, Spell Pierce, Jace, and Liliana. I open Sea, Inquisition and take Price, then get Bolted. I topdeck Hymn and hit a Price of Progress and a Eidolon, then pass back. My notes are a little sketchy on what I took damage from at this point, but I know he REBs a TNN and I eventually land a Jace and a Liliana, stabilizing at 8 life. Lili leaves him in topdeck mode and Jace starts fatesealing him immediately. I Brainstorm into Sylvan Library, which keeps my hand full of answers to the most dangerous spells. I bottom a Price of Progress and he draws into Fireblast instead, but he scoops to Jace at 13 when I counter the Fireblast.
Sideboarding
Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 4 Thoughtseize,
In: 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Hymn to Tourach
(2-1 Matches, 2-3 Games)
Round 4: Nick with Sneak and Show
Game 1 I mull into absolute oblivion (my 7 was 7 lands, my 6 had no lands, my 5 had Jace, 2 Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, I kept 4 with Catacombs, DRS, Brainstorm, Thoughtseize) and get Blood Moon'ed out on turn 3 or 4. Game 2 I keep a very strong seven that lets me turn 1 DRS while holding up Force into turn 2 Hymn while holding up Spell Pierce. The Hymn hits his second land and a Blood Moon. He proceeds to Ponder and pass back without making a Land drop. I drop Liliana and go to work, with her eventually being joined by a TNN and a Sylvan Library before he finds a second land. A second Hymn hits two copies of Emrakul after he found land, but the card advantage from Sylvan was just too much. He tried a late Show and Tell that I countered the turn before TNN killed him. Game three played out similarly, with me keeping a hand of 3 lands, double Force, Brainstorm, Thoughtseize. I topdeck a TNN and turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Griselbrand from a hand of Show and Tell, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb (he played Island, Ponder on turn 1 and attempted to Force my TS, leading me to Force back). He plays Mountain and passes. We play draw-go for a while, and I eventually get Sylvan Library out again. I pay a total of 8 life to it over the course of the game and end up eating his Griselbrand as a preventative measure, but it wasn't relevant in the end. He never resolves anything of significance (I float BG to end-of-main-phase Decay a Blood Moon and let him tap out for Sneak Attack that I have a Pithing Needle for) before TNN gets there.
Sideboarding
Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Abrupt Decay, 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Wasteland
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Hymn to Tourach
(3-1 Matches, 4-4 Games)
Round 5: Will with UG Post
These are very grindy games which worried me initially, but it seems that the matchup is just generally favorable. He blind Needles Wasteland on turn 1 in all three games. I lost 2 life to fetches in game 1 and start draining with DRS at one point. A TNN showed up with him at 15 life and went the rest of the way with Deathrite. Game 2 goes on for a very long time (25-30 minutes), but I'm firmly in control with Jace, Liliana and Sylvan all going. He ends up at 27 life, so I was on the Fateseal plan after Needling his Tops. He's hellbent, but Fact or Fiction and Sylvan Library keep my hand full. I tick Jace up to 9, bottoming Eye of Ugin in the process. He drops Oracle of Mul-Daya and passes back, I Edict Oracle with Liliana and bottom an Expedition Map, ticking Jace up to 11. He topdecks and hardcasts Emrakul, then topdecks Primeval Titan on his extra turn, and kills me. We have 6 minutes to play game 3, and I mull into an aggressive 5 cards of 2 Lands, DRS, 2 TNN. I get there in 4 minutes because he didn't Needle the Deathrite.
Sideboarding
Out: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 something else, 2 Toxic Deluge
In: 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Maelstrom Pulse
Overall Record: 4-1 matches, 6-5 games
I was very happy with the list. I couldn't fathom dropping Sylvan Library because it's just such a house. I might drop Fact or Fiction and add the second MD Library, the add an additional disruption spell to the board. I wish I had played a real creature matchup so I could get a feel for Deluge, but I still can't imagine many situations where I'd draw it and say "man, I really with that was Baleful Strix" except in game 1s against Storm when Strix is an easy blue card to pitch to Force. Dimir Charm may have been too cute, but it got the job done. Spell Pierce or Mana Leak would probably be just as good in that slot overall, especially if I was going with the plan of swapping FoF for the second Library and add a creature removal spell to the board. That being said, Fact was never bad, it was just not as good at generating card advantage as Sylvan because only Burn really pressured my life total. Fact has been very good against Deathblade and Delver strategies in my other testing, where it's harder to pay life to Sylvan to draw the cards. The Jund Depths matchup aside, this deck is the real deal.
Last edited by btm10; 07-16-2014 at 02:20 PM.
Sorry to double-post, but I wanted to say that I think Fact or Fiction is just win-more. It's great against Miracles and in other grindy matchups, but those are pretty good already. I'm going to go with a Negate in that slot, or maybe an MD Spell Pierce or another Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm also sort of ambivalent about Dimir Charm; not being able to kill a flipped Delver might be too much of a liability to make up for the versatility. I'm going to keep with it for a little longer, but it could easily become any of the above cards, or another removal spell like Diabolic Edict #3 or Dismember.
I'll give the deck another spin at a small tournament here in the Netherlands coming saturday. I'll try to keep notes (very bad at that) and report back!
EDIT: @btm, why not go with a good ol' counterspell instead of the Negate? We have to aim at t2, 3 or 4 double blue anyway for TNN and Jace.
At least i know what i'm up against coming Saturday ;-)
I am also working on this deck. Just waiting for a couple of cards to arrive at the mail. But i am a bit torn wether to go CounterTop or not...
You're welcome Bob ;-) Although we are thinking about just playing some Legacy in the park, since this place is an oven and 30+ degrees is expected... :-\
On topic, the deck is great, you should definitely give it a try! Please test CounterTop and let us know how it worked out!
Hello everyone,
Since I saw some of you talking about a heavy walkers BUG Midrange/Controlish version, I felt I could also post my list here (as in the NicFit thread).
I know I am on the explorer/cabal bandwagon but there is a lot belonging to a flat BUG Control.
All this deck is about value and virtual card advantage.
I got to play a sanctioned event with my heavy planeswalker BUG list and reached 4th on a 6 swiss rounds tournament (30+ players) without top 8.
Here is a quick report and my list:
Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artefact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate
Round 1 Draw 1-1 against High Tide
Game 1, I sac'ed an explorer early game and ended up giving him too many island so he could go off turn 3...
Game 2, extirpate on tide & time spiral got me there.
Game 3, I had the game under control but we went to time :-(
Round 2 Lost 1-2 against Show & Tell
Game 1, I had to mull to 5 and the game was pretty over after a turn 2 S&T into Emrakul
Game 2, He mulled to 6 and I ripped his S&T and flashback it for sneak attack. a Jace and a Vraska came down to seal the deal.
Game 3, I was screwed by a blood moon by turn 2 which prevented me from playing my negate to counter his S&T on turn 3. Like a champion I drew into Liliana but got forced :-(
Round 3 Win 2-1 against BUG control
Game 1, My Jace came after a pernicious deed and was enough to seal the deal.
Game 2, Got mana screwed and lost pretty quickly to double goyfs...
Game 3, I taught my opponent that Vraska > Jace :D
Round 4 Win 2-0 against Junk (no Kotr just lingering souls)
Game 1, Jace and Liliana sealed the deal after a pernicious
Game 2, Same as above
Round 5 Win 2-0 against Miracle (legend version)
Game 1, double pernicious on board with an unanswered Jace got me there
Game 2, Very long game where Liliana got countered and I was toying with vraska and ashiok and my opponent with Clique and Venser (with karakas). Finally I got rid of Clique thanks to Abrupt decay and he managed to kill Vraska, but Ashiok got me there. Eventually, my opponent scooped with 3 cards left in his library...
Round 6 Win 2-1 against Pikula splash red (for blood moon and bolt MD)
Game 1, I kept a very slow hand with liliana, Jace, Vraska and got stomped.
Game 2, Liliana and Jace got me there
Game 3, he scooped to a resolved Ashiok facing an empty board (which will be followed up with a Jace by next turn)
To sum up, the list was a pure blast to play. Vraska is a monster in terms of stalling games where Liliana/Jace would fail. I killed twice with Vraska's ulti. Ashiok was interesting all day long and could be considered as the 4th Liliana. I like his +2 and the fact that it could kill where Lili just cannot.
I think the SB has to be improved a bit against combo (maybe goyf).
I used it only twice during this tournament (Game 1 & 2) and kept the same 60 for the rest of the tournament.
It crushed fair.decks so hard and struggled a bit against combo.decks. Not that I cannot win, but it is rather long and could end up on a draw (like against Spiral Tide)
Thanks for reading.
Happy to discuss.
Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !
Niceeee list, grats on the dual.
So was the GSZ plus creature package any usefull?
Did you have any thought on Kiora, the Crashing Wave and/or Karn Liberated over Vraska?
Did you ever got to abuse Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -X ability?
I could see Counterbalance instead of Negate, did you considered those?
Same goes for Innocent Blood.
I could see tweaking the list a bit to go fully on you walkers. Perhaps a bit like that McDarby list.
Cheers.
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