[Deck] UWR Delver

[potatodavid]

It was the Mirror match tonight at the SCG worchester. Good to see the deck still placing high!

Dan Jordan using a gitaxian probe version of the deck. Levi Teitz running a 3 TNN main.

[cab0747]

It was the Mirror match tonight at the SCG worchester. Good to see the deck still placing high!

Dan Jordan using a gitaxian probe version of the deck. Levi Teitz running a 3 TNN main.

This was the first Legacy deck I really committed to. So, it holds a special place in my heart. For some time it seemed like it was on the decline. I am happy to see such a fun deck place again.

[potatodavid]

This was the first Legacy deck I really committed to. So, it holds a special place in my heart. For some time it seemed like it was on the decline. I am happy to see such a fun deck place again.

It's always been a good deck. The meta rotates in legacy so much that it'll often be really poorly positioned, out of all the delver decks this one happens to be the worst against some of the big hitters like UWr Miracles & BUG delver. I'm just glad to see people running it an placing high still.

[Kamus]

Although UWR delver is slower than RUG/BUG Delver, I like to play it aggresively, specially with control decks, as D&T and Miracles. In my personal experience it's very hard to win against miracles and it's almost impossible to win Land.deck.

[potatodavid]

Although UWR delver is slower than RUG/BUG Delver, I like to play it aggresively, specially with control decks, as D&T and Miracles. In my personal experience it's very hard to win against miracles and it's almost impossible to win Land.deck.

Land.dec is close to a pay to win deck type of deck. Something about a 700.00 tabernacle that is just... yeah.

lands can be raced though if you disrupt the majority of their combo pieces so they have to draw naturally into them, it's still a giant crap shoot game 1. Game 2 you can board in a R.I.P. and meddling mages to stop their loam/punishing fire engines.

[Tyrio]

Pay to win? Lol, that's the nature of the game.

It's obvious, but you have to race Lands. It goes without saying but if they get to 5+ lands in play or any sort of engine going you are just going to lose. Counter Loam aggressively if you can, especially when they dredge for the turn or when their on board Lands are awkward because then it's basically a Time Walk. Depending on which version of Lands you're facing (mostly RG or RUGx), you'll be facing different threats. RG has the max number of PFires, Groves and Mazes, but are pretty poorly equipped to deal with TNN. Save your Wastes for Stage-Depths (make sure to Waste after the DD is already in the yard) and your counters for Crop Rotation/Gamble. Countering Loam and Wasting a singleton green source can also be strong. RUGx can be tougher as they have many more pieces of defense (Ensnaring Bridge, recurring EE/OStone, etc.), but are generally slower.

Order of card importance for countering is probably something like:
Ensnaring Bridge (no outs game 1? Obviously lower if they have a full grip)
Intuition
Crop Rotation (can be higher or lower depending on a million factors, how many lands you have (Tabernacle) whether or not they have a Stage or DD in play, whether you have a lethal attack coming (Glacial Chasm), PFire in yard, etc.)
Exploration/Manabond
Life from the Loam (if they dredge that turn and you have board presence)
PFire/EE

This list is obviously complicated by the fact that Daze and Pierce can lose their usefulness very quickly, especially if they resolve Exploration/Manabond.

Board in Wear/Tears, MM and RiPs. You probably want MM on PFire, Loam then EE. TNN is probably your most important card after RiP; if you're against RUGx try to only deploy 1 at a time so EE doesn't get them all. Feel free to dump them all against RG since they can only deal with TNNs via Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle.

[janluis1]

Pay to win? Lol, that's the nature of the game.

It's obvious, but you have to race Lands. It goes without saying but if they get to 5+ lands in play or any sort of engine going you are just going to lose. Counter Loam aggressively if you can, especially when they dredge for the turn or when their on board Lands are awkward because then it's basically a Time Walk. Depending on which version of Lands you're facing (mostly RG or RUGx), you'll be facing different threats. RG has the max number of PFires, Groves and Mazes, but are pretty poorly equipped to deal with TNN. Save your Wastes for Stage-Depths (make sure to Waste after the DD is already in the yard) and your counters for Crop Rotation/Gamble. Countering Loam and Wasting a singleton green source can also be strong. RUGx can be tougher as they have many more pieces of defense (Ensnaring Bridge, recurring EE/OStone, etc.), but are generally slower.

Order of card importance for countering is probably something like:
Ensnaring Bridge (no outs game 1? Obviously lower if they have a full grip)
Intuition
Crop Rotation (can be higher or lower depending on a million factors, how many lands you have (Tabernacle) whether or not they have a Stage or DD in play, whether you have a lethal attack coming (Glacial Chasm), PFire in yard, etc.)
Exploration/Manabond
Life from the Loam (if they dredge that turn and you have board presence)
PFire/EE

This list is obviously complicated by the fact that Daze and Pierce can lose their usefulness very quickly, especially if they resolve Exploration/Manabond.

Board in Wear/Tears, MM and RiPs. You probably want MM on PFire, Loam then EE. TNN is probably your most important card after RiP; if you're against RUGx try to only deploy 1 at a time so EE doesn't get them all. Feel free to dump them all against RG since they can only deal with TNNs via Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle.

Guys let s not hide the evidence. Lands matchup is close to a bye for them. There are different lands list. Our best matchup is against the one playing blue.
There is a way to win and i won matchups adopting this strategy. Turn 1 delver with protection and bolts to make our clock faster.
T 1 Delver + force of will on their mox diamond/ exploration / manabond
T2 Delver + Pierce on loam
T3 keep countering loam again
T4+ Pray and win

In Miracles matchup you adopt same strategy: Delver with protection keeping them in the early game

Against those 2 matchups mull every hand with no turn 1 delver or you will loose 99 % of the time

my 2 cents

[Rosy]

Guys let s not hide the evidence. Lands matchup is close to a bye for them. There are different lands list. Our best matchup is against the one playing blue.
There is a way to win and i won matchups adopting this strategy. Turn 1 delver with protection and bolts to make our clock faster.
T 1 Delver + force of will on their mox diamond/ exploration / manabond
T2 Delver + Pierce on loam
T3 keep countering loam again
T4+ Pray and win

In Miracles matchup you adopt same strategy: Delver with protection keeping them in the early game

Against those 2 matchups mull every hand with no turn 1 delver or you will loose 99 % of the time

my 2 cents

+1

I played against lands at Prague ethernal and the game was unwinable even I had good hands both games. There are so many death cards in the deck and the real clock is only a delver. Sure you can beat them if you draw nuts but it is match you really want to avoid

[potatodavid]

Played last night, with git probe version. -1 STP, 2 spell pierce

Goblins, 1-2, tarfire is a card.
Storm 2-0, force of will is really good
Junk- 2-1, my batterskull is better than your batterskull
Sneak & Show - 2-0, I have more counter magic than you do.

Probe was nice but i kept wishing it was pierce the entire game i played against junk.

[janluis1]

Played last night, with git probe version. -1 STP, 2 spell pierce

Goblins, 1-2, tarfire is a card.
Storm 2-0, force of will is really good
Junk- 2-1, my batterskull is better than your batterskull
Sneak & Show - 2-0, I have more counter magic than you do.

Probe was nice but i kept wishing it was pierce the entire game i played against junk.

cant believe you lost to goblins is allmost a bye for this deck.
For loosing you must have kept a hand with tons of countermagic(dead cards against them)
Jitte or batterskul+removals and is game over

[Michael Keller]

cant believe you lost to goblins is allmost a bye for this deck.
For loosing you must have kept a hand with tons of countermagic(dead cards against them)
Jitte or batterskul+removals and is game over

You always respect your opponents and their decks, or you'll wind up losing. They have interactive cards as well and can flood the board quickly against a weaker hand.

Also, if played tightly and properly, Goblins is never a "bye" against any deck.

[janluis1]

You always respect your opponents and their decks, or you'll wind up losing. They have interactive cards as well and can flood the board quickly against a weaker hand.

Also, if played tightly and properly, Goblins is never a "bye" against any deck.

I can't agree more with you respect for the opponent is essential but the issue is not how good the opponent is the real issue is how to avoid loosing in a matchup that starts in your favour. Is very hard to loose with 2 cards that totally destroy goblins as jitte and batterskull and with 8 Md removals that cost 1. This underlines a lack of variance (very bad luck) or a lack of strategy.

[Michael Keller]

I can't agree more with you respect for the opponent is essential but the issue is not how good the opponent is the real issue is how to avoid loosing in a matchup that starts in your favour.

That's not really true. A good deck in the hands of a good opponent can win just as easily as a skilled pilot sitting across the table with their own "good" deck. You said the match-up was a bye, and I think you're completely wrong in that respect. Tarfire has been picked up by savvy Goblin players as a means to crush Stoneforge Mystic decks and plow through to win games.

Is very hard to loose with 2 cards that totally destroy goblins as jitte and batterskull and with 8 Md removals that cost 1. This underlines a lack of variance (very bad luck) or a lack of strategy.

First of all, the only way that's becoming a reality is when Stoneforge Mystic hits the table. It also depends on who is on the play or draw. Goblins can easily flood the board by killing Stoneforge or bouncing it with Stingscourger to power through a lot of damage. In fact, while Jitte is in fact powerful, the inherent intensiveness to getting online before getting thrashed seems a little tougher than you're giving it credit for. The games are attrition-based early on, and with Port and Wasteland to lock down mana sources in conjunction with Vial - strategy is a huge percentage in how this match-up plays out.

Goblins plays removal too, which seems more pertinent actually against a less creature-intensive deck than Goblins is. The deck is somewhat threat-light compared to other aggro decks, and sometimes it will lose steam in the face of a flood of threats - even with removal. You're talking about the first three turns - and assuming an opponent has all of these cards you're talking about undeterred, that's clearly a recipe for success. However, I'd argue the pace of this match-up is setup strictly by Goblins, as the Delver player has to put pressure on early to nullify the onslaught.

[janluis1]

That's not really true. A good deck in the hands of a good opponent can win just as easily as a skilled pilot sitting across the table with their own "good" deck. You said the match-up was a bye, and I think you're completely wrong in that respect. Tarfire has been picked up by savvy Goblin players as a means to crush Stoneforge Mystic decks and plow through to win games.



First of all, the only way that's becoming a reality is when Stoneforge Mystic hits the table. It also depends on who is on the play or draw. Goblins can easily flood the board by killing Stoneforge or bouncing it with Stingscourger to power through a lot of damage. In fact, while Jitte is in fact powerful, the inherent intensiveness to getting online before getting thrashed seems a little tougher than you're giving it credit for. The games are attrition-based early on, and with Port and Wasteland to lock down mana sources in conjunction with Vial - strategy is a huge percentage in how this match-up plays out.

Goblins plays removal too, which seems more pertinent actually against a less creature-intensive deck than Goblins is. The deck is somewhat threat-light compared to other aggro decks, and sometimes it will lose steam in the face of a flood of threats - even with removal. You're talking about the first three turns - and assuming an opponent has all of these cards you're talking about undeterred, that's clearly a recipe for success. However, I'd argue the pace of this match-up is setup strictly by Goblins, as the Delver player has to put pressure on early to nullify the onslaught.

Even tough I understand your arguments I don't speak by taste I speak by results.You are assuming here goblin is a good deck why I don't see goblin top8 ing in any important tournament out there?. Second: You gave a bunch of theory but... have you ever tested the matchup piloting UWR delver!?

I played sort of 20 matches in tournaments and others with my playtesting group and with all honesty Goblin was the easiest matchup among all the established legacy decks out there. Im sorry if you took it personally I didnt mean to offend your deck.
If someone else got different results or has other evidence but not just personal belief im willing to have a look.

[potatodavid]

cant believe you lost to goblins is allmost a bye for this deck.
For loosing you must have kept a hand with tons of countermagic(dead cards against them)
Jitte or batterskul+removals and is game over

Game 1:well, cavern of souls makes your counterspells worthless, then his wastelands and ports hosed me.

game 2: i got the jitte out and on a TNN online and he conceded.

game 3: Tuktuk Scrapper, Gempalm, & wear/tear make sure his goblin piledrivers were just better than my delver/stoneforge

goblins is still a good deck, but it's no way autowin.

[goblinsplayer]

Game 1:well, cavern of souls makes your counterspells worthless, then his wastelands and ports hosed me.

game 2: i got the jitte out and on a TNN online and he conceded.

game 3: Tuktuk Scrapper, Gempalm, & wear/tear make sure his goblin piledrivers were just better than my delver/stoneforge

goblins is still a good deck, but it's no way autowin.

Completely agree here. I've experienced the matchup from both sides and neither seems very heavily favored in this matchup. I think it can go either way, depending on what cards each player draws.

[potatodavid]

3-1 at the local legacy hole this weekend, again trying a gitprobe list.

1-2 - Junk: His removal was never ending and uncounterable
2-1 - Storm: COUNTER ALL THE THINGS!
2-0 - Belcher: FOW > their whole deck.
2-1 - Burn: Eidolon is a card, but batterskull is also a card.


I'm happy with how it played, I don't know what changes i will be making if any.

[Exuberance]

I've really wanted to try this deck out, mostly because I haven't cast a Stoneforge Mystic in sanctioned play since they were in Standard. I've been hating on this deck with my friends for awhile now, but for some reason I want to jam it and see what happens. It doesn't seem like a great deck, but it's still placing in top 8 a bunch.

Anyway, how viable is playing nineteen lands, as opposed to the usual twenty? I just want to play three of each dual and a basic island, mostly because I am a greedy, greedy man, and also because I have, like, ten cantrips.

[HTJ]

I've really wanted to try this deck out, mostly because I haven't cast a Stoneforge Mystic in sanctioned play since they were in Standard. I've been hating on this deck with my friends for awhile now, but for some reason I want to jam it and see what happens. It doesn't seem like a great deck, but it's still placing in top 8 a bunch.

Anyway, how viable is playing nineteen lands, as opposed to the usual twenty? I just want to play three of each dual and a basic island, mostly because I am a greedy, greedy man, and also because I have, like, ten cantrips.

If you are running 19 lands, I don't recommend a basic island. Otherwise, 19 lands are fine. I've been happy with how my deck is running.

[Kael]

Hey guys, I've been looking to expand into Delver territory for the first time in quite awhile, and I already have most of the manabase from playing Miracles, so I thought I'd give this a shot. My local metagame is pretty varied: Miracles, Storm, Dredge, Deathblade, Elves, Birthing Pod Nic Fit (3 of them), Burn, Merfolk, Junk, Dead Guy - pretty much everything except Delver. Is there anything specific I should consider playing in a metagame like this?