Miracle Control

[twndomn]

If there is a cards that shuts down Goblins by itself it is Moat. Humility is also very effective at buying time. The only card I could imagine a monored Gobo-player running that gets rid of them is Chaos Warp and I haven't seen that one in a sideboard. However, I don't run Moat myself and would consider my win percentage in games and matches (lots of them) about 40-45%.

Nobody I have seen runs Chaos Warp.

Moat is very misleading. Goblins can still:
1. Seige-gang
2. Kiki + Goblin Settler (to minimize entreat and pretty much win at a later point), Kiki + Seige-gang via vial
3. Pyrokinesis

To get rid of Moat:
1. Wear//Tear (if splashes White)
2. Anarchy (if mono-red)

[Dzra]

Goblins is pretty rough (as is Merfolk like Twndomn said). I would leave in Force of Wills so that you can try to counter their Aether Vial or Lacky (assuming you don't have removal for it right away). Leading with Lacky probably means that they don't have a Vial. Goblins operates very poorly without Vial or Lacky, but unfortunately for us, we give them plenty of time to recover and develop their mana anyways. The general plan is to do everything you can to stall them until you can Entreat for hopefully a lot. Take any opportunity to block that you can because it doesn't take long for them to (re)populate the board.

[Poron]

Moat is pretty meaningless against modern Goblins because they're all playing Purphoros, God of the Forge

http://magiccards.info/ths/en/135.html

[Cipher]

Besides fringe decks like Goblins, who else would anyone who's tried Moat say it's good against? I finally bought this deck online and Keranos in the sideboard dissapointed in the first daily I ran the deck in. Got torn apart by Justin Uppal (Esper Stoneblade) while it sat in my hand, deluding me into warping my gameplan around resolving him. Of course it got Thoughtseized before I hit 5 mana...

I could go back to the 3rd Entreat, but that seems almost as clunky. Out of the top decks:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

...Moat seems like it would only be great against Elves, and slightly worse than a Supreme Verdict against the rest of the decks. Anyone disagree? $5 on MODO has me itching to try it out.

[TheArchitect]

I own a moat and I don't think it is worth playing. When TNN first came out, I thought it would be the nuts, but all the TNN decks run plenty of outs to it.

Moat is decent against deathblade, Shardless BUG, MUD and Jund. But often verdict is just better. Moat isn't too great against elves, they can just GSZ an out to it anytime they want and then kill you with the board they have been building up.

Really goblins and fish are the only decks its game over against.

Yes goblins has some really really fringe outs like Perphoros, Shardshooter+The one that sacs a goblin to make R, Siege-Gang, etc. but a single StP breaks them all up. (pyrokenesis and gempalm can only target creatures btw).

Merfolk does not run Coalhelm anymore, so besides the rare SB clique or boomerange type effect, they have zero outs to moat.

[zeus-online]

One last question regarding the goblin match up.

If you had baneslayer angel in the sideboard, would you board it in?

Seems like it would be difficult to play (3WW vs. waste/port) and they can still win, although it is probably a bit more difficult for them.

[Tourach]

If you tap out on T5, Goblins will easily kill you more often than not. Lords provide haste, they deploy some creatures and alpha strike you. If you were the Goblin-player, wouldn't you be happy to see your opponent cast a five-mana-creature on his/her turn? What makes Miracles scary for you is that almost everything can be pulled off at instant speed. You never know, which of your ceatures connect or survive combat. I wouldn't board in expensive sorcery-speed-cards, with the exception of Supreme Verdict.

[Adryan]

@Adryan: Why do you board out a Force for a Counterspell? Force counters Vial, Counterspell costs 3 against Thalia, and can't hit anything relevant on he draw, and very little on the play. Surely Force is just better there, but if you want to cut one, Humility could be right.

I'm very happy with 3 Counterspell & 3 FoW postboard against Death and Taxes. Maybe if your manabase consists of Mystic Gate, Mountain, Karakas you may have troubles casting it against Death and Taxes. I think Counterspell is very good at what it's supposed to to in this MU, being an insurance against Cataclysm and not being a dead card, because it will always do something for you.

I really can't understand why anyone would keep Spell Pierce against Death and Taxes. I mean it's almost as bad as Blue Elemental Blast in this MU ( can be pitched to Force of Will too). The likeliness of hitting Aether Vial and Cataclysm is simply too low for my taste. I never keep Spell Pierce. I mean the likeliness of the opp having Aether Vial on Turn 1 is ~ 40% and the likeliness of you having Spell Pierce on Turn 1 isn't very high either, so it sounds like bad gambling to me.

I'm not a huge fan of countering Vial postboard with Force of Will. Of course it depends on your opening 7, but my list has 4 removal for Aether Vial postboard, so i don't feel comfortable to 2-1 myself. But it depends. I played a lot of matches with this 3/3 split of FoW & Counterspell and I'm very happy with it.

As i said it's okay to bring Humility against Death and Taxes if you have the slots. I simply don't have the slots, i want to be prepared for Cataclysm and i have already enough expensive spells (1 Keranos, 3 Jace, 2 Entreat). Each of them can win me the game. So bringing a 7th expensive spell that doesn't win me the game is not optimal. I mean you can still die to 1/1's, even if the opp doesn't have equipments.

[YamiJoey]

How in the name of fuck is Counterspell better than Force when they have a T1 play that just totally blanks half of your deck? Cave, Stoneforge Mystic, and Vial are the reason we pull out Counterbalance, so why is Counterspell being left in? I'm boarding my one copy out.

[zeus-online]

If you tap out on T5, Goblins will easily kill you more often than not. Lords provide haste, they deploy some creatures and alpha strike you. If you were the Goblin-player, wouldn't you be happy to see your opponent cast a five-mana-creature on his/her turn? What makes Miracles scary for you is that almost everything can be pulled off at instant speed. You never know, which of your ceatures connect or survive combat. I wouldn't board in expensive sorcery-speed-cards, with the exception of Supreme Verdict.

I honestly don't think i would play it on turn 5. Unless i had nothing else to do of course.
Just as i rarely play jace, TMS on turn 4.

My main concern with baneslayer angel is that they can overrun it, i am just not certain how easy that really is, considering that the angel blocks piledriver and gains you 5 life.
It won't save me from a board full of goblins, but very few (playable) cards will.

[Adryan]

How in the name of fuck is Counterspell better than Force when they have a T1 play that just totally blanks half of your deck? Cave, Stoneforge Mystic, and Vial are the reason we pull out Counterbalance, so why is Counterspell being left in? I'm boarding my one copy out.

First, you don't need to write like that. We are not in the ghetto ;)

Fine.. 2nd:
Vial is a 4of and Cavern of Souls is almost never more than a 1-2of, many lists don't even play it. The majority of Death and Taxes lists play it as a 1of. Even if the opp has Vial you still have lots of targets for your Counterspell. I mean if they have Vial on two and three, well we can agree that you won't have many targets for Counterspell, but even then it's kind of okay.

3rd: if you use every FoW to counter ASAP that nasty vial, you're probably doing it wrong. Counterspell is really consistent at what it does, which is countering Cataclysm, random dudes etc.

In my list i don't see that Vial blanks half my deck^^.



Maybe you're doing something wrong.

[decan]

Do you think turn 1 Vial in the D&T or even Merfolk MU is always worth a force (assuming no removal for it)?

[btm10]

Sorry to interrupt mid-D&T discussion, but I'm a great admirer of Miracles as a deck, and would play it if I had Tundras right now (I sold them shortly before getting into Legacy about 2 years ago), but it seems from my testing against it that Miracles has slightly to highly unfavorable matchups against both Shardless BUG and BUG Control. I know that Shardless has been extensively discussed, and I'd put it at slightly unfavorable, but I've been playing a lot of BUG Control recently and my matches against Miracles seen to be extremely lopsided (I've lost 3 games in ~15 matches lopsided). Is TNN that problematic even with Terminus? Are my Miracles opponents just not good with the deck? Or are the builds of Miracles that don't SB Blood Moon just giving up a ton of points against BUG that they don't need to? The Legend builds seem to be the hardest for BUG, but in the few matches I've played with Miracles, that seems like the weaker build (Philip's version with 4 SCM, 4 Ponder seems to suit my playstyle better).

[AnziD]

In the mirror, what is the best way to beat an opponent's countertop lock both preboard and postboard? Also, using Einherjer's list, is it correct to bring in EE in the mirror?

[twndomn]

Is TNN that problematic even with Terminus? Are my Miracles opponents just not good with the deck? Or are the builds of Miracles that don't SB Blood Moon just giving up a ton of points against BUG that they don't need to? The Legend builds seem to be the hardest for BUG, but in the few matches I've played with Miracles, that seems like the weaker build (Philip's version with 4 SCM, 4 Ponder seems to suit my playstyle better).

It's not that Miracles's inability to defeat Shardless BUG, it's Miracles in general doesn't want to prepare Shardless BUG specific SB. Sure, a resolved Blood Moon would most likely result a win for Miracles, but how many of them actually provocatively trying to do so? Similar argument can be made for Misdirection; it's a great card against BUG, but what about other match-ups?

In the mirror, what is the best way to beat an opponent's countertop lock both preboard and postboard? Also, using Einherjer's list, is it correct to bring in EE in the mirror?

You have to be more specific, like Lossett's 75 vs Lossett's 75, as in true mirror? Or just a miracles build vs another miracles build? If you suspect your opponent's on Ein's list, then you know his list is very soft on CMC 3. Regardless which build, the way to jam through CB-T is always to bait your opponent into activating the drawing part of top.

[YamiJoey]

Vial makes countermagic (6), Jace (3), and Terminus (4) worse. That's 13 cards, 7 of which are supposed to be your best cards, the whole reason you play the deck. When we're facung down a hate-based deck that has uncounterable pieces with Flash, your game becomes much harder. Flash in a SoL in response to a Brainstorm? Dead. Flickerwisps to present threats whilst protecting their key components, all whilst Port and Wasteland keep you from playing Magic effectively. Then you draw a Counterspell. I don't see how you can afford to keep in three cards which will just do nothing. They don't need to cast Armageddon to kill you, they can just beat you to death the normal way.

As a control deck, we need most of our cards to be good when we're losing. When we're stable we can draw anything and it won't matter. Force still counters Cataclysm.

[Adryan]

Before it was:

when they have a T1 play that just totally blanks half of your deck?

Then:

Vial makes countermagic (6), Jace (3), and Terminus (4) worse. That's 13 cards, 7 of which are supposed to be your best cards, the whole reason you play the deck. When we're facung down a hate-based deck that has uncounterable pieces with Flash, your game becomes much harder. Flash in a SoL in response to a Brainstorm? Dead. Flickerwisps to present threats whilst protecting their key components, all whilst Port and Wasteland keep you from playing Magic effectively. Then you draw a Counterspell. I don't see how you can afford to keep in three cards which will just do nothing. They don't need to cast Armageddon to kill you, they can just beat you to death the normal way.

As a control deck, we need most of our cards to be good when we're losing. When we're stable we can draw anything and it won't matter. Force still counters Cataclysm.

I think we're reaching a more realistic point. I have hope. Nevertheless whenever i read something from you there's too much fairytale for my taste. F.ex. I've won a dozen games against Death and Taxes, where brainstormed "draw 1 card, put two cards back" and did still win, because well you know Terminus is just such a good card. Counterspell was good for me at what it is supposed to do. It's additional stuff that the majority of time will trade 1:1 with Creatures, while being an insurance against Cataclysm. Maybe you should play more/ test more different list, so that you get a real taste what is good/not good against different decks and how the MU plays really out. Watching some streams, doing some local games won't give you any great insight of the Death and Taxes MU.

Do you think turn 1 Vial in the D&T or even Merfolk MU is always worth a force (assuming no removal for it)?

Against Death and Taxes it depends on your hand. F.ex if your hand has a lot of high cmc spells and is therefore kind of slow i would force it. If you have removal or the Vial it's rather obvious not to FoW it.
Some not well thought examples. But i hope you get the point:

.) SDT, 3 Lands, Jace, Snapcaster Mage, FoW
-> i force the vial, you need some time to develop your mana and find removal.
.) SDT, Ponder, Swords, FoW, 3 Lands
-> i don't force the Vial, i have early removal and will not have problems to find additional removal for creatures and Vial.

Without exaggeration i had about ~1000 matches against Death and Taxes, because it's a very fun MU and a friend of mine also likes the MU.
Against Meerfolk I had about 10-15 matches. I don't have FoW against them postboard, because Aether Vial and their counteramagic are the only relevant targets most of the time. And i don't think they are worth a two for one. But i'm not sure about that.

[JosephK]

Hello,

I'm not a miracle player -sorry if my question seems foolish - but if you don't counter vial, how do you handle thalia + karakas + vial (+ rishadan etc..)?

Something like T1 land vial, T2 rishadan, T3 karakas thalia.

Fast entreat ?

Thanks for your help :)

[Rush80]

I am playin 3 FoW MD plus 2 pierces 3 counter spell and 3 counterbalance.

My point is if in a decent amount of matches it is customary to board out FoWs then they may not be so needed.

Vs combo, Miracles has the upper hand anyway, apart for nuts draw.

[decan]

Against Death and Taxes it depends on your hand. F.ex if your hand has a lot of high cmc spells and is therefore kind of slow i would force it. If you have removal or the Vial it's rather obvious not to FoW it.
Some not well thought examples. But i hope you get the point:

.) SDT, 3 Lands, Jace, Snapcaster Mage, FoW
-> i force the vial, you need some time to develop your mana and find removal.
.) SDT, Ponder, Swords, FoW, 3 Lands
-> i don't force the Vial, i have early removal and will not have problems to find additional removal for creatures and Vial.

Without exaggeration i had about ~1000 matches against Death and Taxes, because it's a very fun MU and a friend of mine also likes the MU.
Against Meerfolk I had about 10-15 matches. I don't have FoW against them postboard, because Aether Vial and their counteramagic are the only relevant targets most of the time. And i don't think they are worth a two for one. But i'm not sure about that.

Thank you for your detailed answer. Helps a lot for the future. Today the vial beat me: EOT mirran crusader. =( he had needled top, after i destroyed needle he revokered top. so i disenchanted his revoker. Im not sure that was correct, but i couldnt find a terminus or swords. He had thalia, sfm on board and also swords of fire and ice in hand. was at 12 life or so at that point.

Played also against goblins.
Game 1 I forced turn 1 vial, turn 2 pierced vial and Entreat took me home. Game 2 i won with jace ultimate which was pretty awesome. pretty easy matchup =D