Miracle Control

[twndomn]

I am playin 3 FoW MD plus 2 pierces 3 counter spell and 3 counterbalance.

My point is if in a decent amount of matches it is customary to board out FoWs then they may not be so needed.

Vs combo, Miracles has the upper hand anyway, apart for nuts draw.

That is not true. Miracles MD has a lot of dead cards against combos; StP and Entreat are most of time irrelevant against combos like Storm, Sneak and Show game 1.

[Poron]

btw what is your storm plan? I add 1 Canonist and 1 E Tutor and... that's pretty much all

[btm10]

It's not that Miracles's inability to defeat Shardless BUG, it's Miracles in general doesn't want to prepare Shardless BUG specific SB. Sure, a resolved Blood Moon would most likely result a win for Miracles, but how many of them actually provocatively trying to do so? Similar argument can be made for Misdirection; it's a great card against BUG, but what about other match-ups?

I'm less curious about the Shardless/Miracles matchup, which I feel is favorable for Shardless but not particularly lopsided. I'm more curious about the matchup against BUG Control/Planeswalkers which seems to be extremely lopsided without any special SB tech from either side. Any BUG deck has excellent (though not Blood Moon-level) sideboard options for the match, so even things like Rest in Peace don't move the needle a ton in my experience. More broadly, it seems like Miracles has a relatively unfavorable matchup against most other decks (12post, slower BUG variants as mentioned above, Tezzeret, etc.) set up to play the long game with the possible exception of Jund.

[twndomn]

I'm less curious about the Shardless/Miracles matchup, which I feel is favorable for Shardless but not particularly lopsided. I'm more curious about the matchup against BUG Control/Planeswalkers which seems to be extremely lopsided without any special SB tech from either side. Any BUG deck has excellent (though not Blood Moon-level) sideboard options for the match, so even things like Rest in Peace don't move the needle a ton in my experience. More broadly, it seems like Miracles has a relatively unfavorable matchup against most other decks (12post, slower BUG variants as mentioned above, Tezzeret, etc.) set up to play the long game with the possible exception of Jund.

oh, come on, are u kidding me? Yes, there're unfavorable match-ups, 12 post should not be described as unfavorable, it's un-winnable, like 95% un-winnable. There're huge differences.

And then, there're huge differences between Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. Please just read articles Ein has written about those MU. If you understand his articles, you would realize that BUG Delver is definitely winnable. Yes, Ein did mention that Shardless BUG's a problem, but if you follow his article, you can put yourself in a decent position at the least.

[AggroControl]

Just play four Counterbalance and tell them to play a real deck. If we can beat Storm, we can beat the Storm deck that takes three turns to kill you.

I'm also fairly certain Sphinx's Revelation isn't good, ever since that one time I put one in as my fifteenth sideboard card and never wanted it. Ever.

I'm also getting really worried about the banned list. We're doing really well now, and we're beginning to warp the format. If Shardless BUG/BUG Delver suddenly take a hit in some way I'm pretty sure we'll see a T8 that's nearly all Miracles. We're starting to take 3-4 slots very regularly.

Also I'm playing four Jaces. I don't care how, something is getting removed. He is the best card we could ever hope to cast at basically every point in the game.

There's no individual card in Miracles that is ban worthy aside from Brainstorm and they will never ban Brainstorm. If they banned Brainstorm then they'd also ban Deathrite Shaman and probably Sensei's Divining Top and the format would be unrecognizable in the aftermath. People would be extremely pissed and it would be bad for WotC in a big way.

What they'll do if they decide Jace is a problem is create some form of uncounterable instant way to get rid of him that also has enough applicability to other targets that people will actually sideboard it in the appropriate lists.

[btm10]

oh, come on, are u kidding me? Yes, there're unfavorable match-ups, 12 post should not be described as unfavorable, it's un-winnable, like 95% un-winnable. There're huge differences.

And then, there're huge differences between Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. Please just read articles Ein has written about those MU. If you understand his articles, you would realize that BUG Delver is definitely winnable. Yes, Ein did mention that Shardless BUG's a problem, but if you follow his article, you can put yourself in a decent position at the least.

Have you even read what I wrote? I'm playing the BUG decks in these situations, I'm merely surprised by my win rate and trying to understand if this is a structural weakness of Miracles, or if I've just encountered poor Miracle players. Also, the BUG Delver/Miracles matchup tends to be ~50/50 in my experience, so that's definitely not what I'm referring to.

[Adryan]

Have you even read what I wrote? I'm playing the BUG decks in these situations, I'm merely surprised by my win rate and trying to understand if this is a structural weakness of Miracles, or if I've just encountered poor Miracle players. Also, the BUG Delver/Miracles matchup tends to be ~50/50 in my experience, so that's definitely not what I'm referring to.

BUG Delver is a very skill intensive MU and it depends on the lists of both players which deck is favored. With my list i feel favored against all the BUG decks, except BUG Planseswalkers/Standstill. The latter is not played. And that's a good thing.
---------

12 Post is definetely not a 5 % MU for us. I played against it about 20 times, and i did win about a third against it. It's a very bad MU for us, no one can deny that, but you also can't deny it's the worst deck in Legacy. It has so many bad MU's (Delver decks, Burn, Painter, combo etc.) and so few good MU's, that i always wonder how stupid one must be to play it for anything else besides fun.

You can win against it with assembling Countertop lock and then kill them with Jace/Entreat. You just have to stop them from getting the Eye of Urgin or an Emrakul. Of course they can draw both things naturally and then it's game over. There are also some games, we're they are really slow with assembling Mana and you have f.ex something like Turn 2 Snapcaster into Turn 3 Vendilion Clique with some Countermagic protection, so you beat them down while countering anything that looks nasty. In addition to that you can also nutdraw them which happened twice for me. It was Turn 2 Countertop lock, Turn 3 Clique, Turn 4 Jace, Turn 5 Entreat and FoW backup in my hand. So it's definetely winnable, besides nutdrawing them, because it's just a bad and inconsistent deck (when facing Disruption. when you goldfish it, i think it's consistent).

[decan]

@adryan what do you float on top of library? terminus for Primevial titan? what else?
Im not too familar with this matchup.

[Adryan]

@adryan what do you float on top of library? terminus for Primevial titan? what else?
Im not too familar with this matchup.

I float 1 on top, because it counters Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, SDT, Brainstorm etc. You really need to stop them from getting Eye, Emrakul or having access of any kind of library manipulation. Therefore forcing their SDT is always correct.

Boarding plan depends on the list. F.ex if they have Oracle i leave in some removal. If they only have Primeval Titan, i board all the creature removal out, so i don't have Terminus postboard. A resolved Titan trigger is game over, unless you play Blood Moon afterwards and only playing it to have a 6cc spell for counterbalance seems very bad.

Blood Moon is the best SB card against them. If you resolve it, and they don't play Wipe Away/Krosan Grip, it's almost impossible for them to get rid of it.

[twndomn]

Oh yeah~ Miracles finally won a SCG Open, when was the last one? The one in Denver?

Who's Remelt on the source? I ran something much more similar to his. His list here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70894

[tempothresh]

Oh yeah~ Miracles finally won a SCG Open, when was the last one? The one in Denver?

Who's Remelt on the source? I ran something much more similar to his. His list here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70894

That would be me.

I have actually been lurking this thread for quite some time. I am nowhere near a master at playing this deck and I am grateful that this thread helped me decide on specific cards in my list and how to play certain m/u's.

If anyone has questions id be happy to answer them.

[zeus-online]

That would be me.

I have actually been lurking this thread for quite some time. I am nowhere near a master at playing this deck and I am grateful that this thread helped me decide on specific cards in my list and how to play certain m/u's.

If anyone has questions id be happy to answer them.

I am currently pondering if i should run rest in peace or relic of progenitus.
I am running 3 snapcaster mages, and RIP has very poor synergy with the mages.

Why did you opt for RIP? :)

Another question: Do you ever feel like you are drawing too many counterspells? you have 2 counterspell, 2 pierces, 4 force of will and 3 counterbalance.

[decan]

relic doesnt work with nullrod which could be an issue and is the reason i dont run it.

[tempothresh]

I am currently pondering if i should run rest in peace or relic of progenitus.
I am running 3 snapcaster mages, and RIP has very poor synergy with the mages.

Why did you opt for RIP? :)

Another question: Do you ever feel like you are drawing too many counterspells? you have 2 counterspell, 2 pierces, 4 force of will and 3 counterbalance.

My thinking behind it is in the M/U's where you need graveyard removal and they are not playing Abrupt decay's, (RUG, Dredge, lands etc) Rest in Peace is just a complete hoser. Relic is imo still a fantastic card but it doesn't shut out certain m/u's quite like RIP does. I've had rug players play around the relic where I was forced to sac it. And when I did they just eventually pulled ahead. I tend to board snapcasters out when I bring in RIP unless I want him there just as a ambush viper vs M/U's where putting pressure on your opponent is important. For instance vs Dredge ill keep him in to help remove bridges by flashing in during combat and blocking.

I have been up in the air about what counterspells I really prefer in the list. Honestly spell pierce is my least favorite and I used to play a one of spell snare. Until lately I decided I wanted to be more proactive in the early game against decks like BUG and combo. Vs Abrupt decay decks you can't rely on counterbalance so having a answer to their early hymm's and lili's is important to me.

I've been on this list for about 6 months communicating with Joe Bass (were both from Houston, other local Miracles player) on different card choices. I've copied Joe Lossett's mana base as I feel safe playing the mountain and I really dislike getting my red wasted. The others playing 21-22 lands and no basic mountains are much braver than I am. I don't think it's wrong or right but more of a comfort issue as I like to play safer against wasteland.

[JimmyC27]

I've been on this list for about 6 months communicating with Joe Bass (were both from Houston, other local Miracles player) on different card choices. I've copied Joe Lossett's mana base as I feel safe playing the mountain and I really dislike getting my red wasted. The others playing 21-22 lands and no basic mountains are much braver than I am. I don't think it's wrong or right but more of a comfort issue as I like to play safer against wasteland.

Is Joe Bass still running SFM in his list? If not, is there any reason why?

[lambert101]

Hi all, I just wanted opinions on the following board guides. Please remember these are just guides to help with tournament anxiety, nothing is set in stone. I am trying to get ready for a local SCG. I have gotten a lot of these ideas from various players on the source. I want to give a special thanks to Einherjer for making the 4 ponder build. I am playing the following:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgement
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
2 Engineered Explosives

vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, -4 Terminus, - 1 Force of Will, - 1 Entreat the Angels
+ 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, +2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. RUG Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 2 Counterspell, -2 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Council's Judgement

vs. BUG Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. UWR Delver
- 4 Force fo Will, - 1 Counterspell, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Disenchant, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Council's Judgement

vs. UR Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Red Blast, + 2 Flusterstorm

vs. Jund
- 4 Force of Will, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 1 Counicl's Judgement, + 2 Engineered Explosives

vs. Shardless BUG
- 4 Counterbalance, - 4 Force of Will, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Engineered Explosives

vs. Junk/Maverick
- 4 Force of Will, - 2 Ponder, - 1 Counterbalance, - 2 other slots
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Rest in Peace

vs. Burn
- 4 Terminus, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm

vs. ANT storm
- 4 Terminus, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Engineered Explosives

vs. TES storm
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 4 Terminus, -1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Rest in Peace

vs. Belcher
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Terminus, - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Disenchant

vs. Omni-Tell
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 4 Terminus, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Counicl's Judgement

vs. Sneak and Show
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 4 Terminus, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Counicl's Judgement

vs. Reanimator
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat, - 2 Ponder. - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Vendilion Clique

vs. LED Dredge
- 4 Counterbalnce, - 2 Counterspell, - 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast

vs. Manaless Dredge
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm

vs. Death Blade
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Disencahnt, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. Esper Stonebalde
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Pyroblast, +1 Disenchant, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Council's Judgement,
+1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. UW Stoneblade
- 4 Force, -2 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, +1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. Elves
- 1 Council's Judgement, - 1 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Engineered Explosives

vs. Merfolk
- 4 Counterbalance, - 4 Force of Will
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, +1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. Goblins
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell,
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. Merfolk
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms

vs. Death and Taxes
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 1 Izzet Staticaster

[tempothresh]

Is Joe Bass still running SFM in his list? If not, is there any reason why?

He is indeed still playing SFM but not always. He wavers back and forth between lists depending on the event. He recently was playing Joe Lossett's list but decided to go back to SFM for this open. Why he still plays it I am not quite sure.

[Poron]

might you help me to understand the use of Izzet Staticaster?

Thank you

[AnziD]

might you help me to understand the use of Izzet Staticaster?

Thank you

Has utility against all the decks with large numbers of x/1s. For example, Staticaster shines against Death and Taxes and its creature package of Thalia, Mother of Runes, etc.

[Lethalbiscotti]

Has utility against all the decks with large numbers of x/1s. For example, Staticaster shines against Death and Taxes and its creature package of Thalia, Mother of Runes, etc.

Source lurker here.

Or you can just cast Staticaster and salt over Storm decks casting Empty the Warrens

Situational play, though. A mere suggestion.