Say whott?? :-) Nah Sundering Titan is a really important piece. It closes games on it's own. Drop this one out of a Forgemaster or doing Welder tricks with it just no way to recover from for many decks. Especcially Delver.dec which mostly run on 0 basic and all duals. For this reason i always pack 2 Titans, which makes me draw into it more often and being able to present it in more games by hardcasting it besides being the obvious Forgemaster target in games where Blightsteel Colossus isn't as good.Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Perhaps cutting the 4th Welder. 3x Welder and 3x Forgemaster seems more than enough to me.
How are the 2 Top's?
Bottled Cloister can be tricky, if they destroy it while your hand is removed, you lose the hand aswell.
I don't think I want to remove a Goblin Welder, he is way too strong.
Also SDT gives the deck library manipulation which I think this deck needed dearly. I quite like it.
All in all I'm quite happy with the list, except for Titan, but I haven't run into Delver decks too much.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
@nerv2004: Thank you for that.
While I don't think Spellskites fit well in a Forgemaster combo build, (Metalworker acts like your Spellskite in that build) in a build that puts a lot of value in having a threat stick, Spellskite does wonders. There were some instances that I encountered that makes Spellskites very useful in (nameless one)'s build. You protect a critical Ratchet Bomb tick up, save a Steel Hellkite from a Reclamation Sage, or the usual save a Wurmcoil from StP, or protect that critical Chalice for 1. The deck that runs very minimal of those numbers can use a lot of help from Spellskite. While (nameless one) ran 3 Spellskites SB, which I think is a good number while having Batterskull, I'm only giving it 2 slots because I really want All is Dusts in. I felt very comfortable with having 2 Ratchet Bombs and 2 All is Dusts in any of my MUD lists and would want to have that in (nameless one)'s stax build too. I'll just have to tough it up against Burn without Thorn of Amethysts.
About Sphere of Resistance vs Trinisphere. I feel like Trinisphere fits the combo build better than Sphere of Resistance. I like Sphere of Resistance with a stax build. I can deal with the lower casting cost cards, but would like to block Jace, Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, opposing Batterskulls, Cataclysm, and other higher cc that are more devastating to us. Even Force of Will, Daze, Entomb, Reanimate can be dealt with in other ways.
About locking myself out. It doesn't matter if you have Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere, if any deck breaks your mana sources, you will be locked out. My solution for this was to go up to 25 lands and a single Crucible of the Worlds in the 75 (whether you SB the land and Crucible or not). The post-lands and a lower mana curve (no Blightsteel, minimal 6/8cc creatures, favoring Phyrexian Metamorph) has helped out a lot too. So even if you have Sphere of Resistance(s) out, you can still afford casting an 8 to cast Wurmcoil or 10 to cast Sundering Titan, or just not be able to cast 1 or the uncommon case of 2 cards in your hand. With Sphere of Resistance(s) in play, decks with Wasteland won't break your lands until they have dominated the board, but we tend to be faster at that. If they break your lands, we have more than them and we can recover faster. Emphasis on the recovery here as sometimes we are not able to.
I'm still on the debate whether Mishra's Factory or Cavern of Souls is better in the deck.
I hope my explanations helps.
EDIT: @(nameless one): I'd like to see how you incorporate Smokestack into your list. Looking forward to it!
As a longtime lurker here, I would like to ask what build would you guys suggest vs goblins. My group are mainly casual players, although we pretty much have most archetypes represented with updated lists. Vial Goblins has been a consistent nightmare for me for which I can't get around with.
I have all the staples for MUD to STAX, and everything in between. I've tried every color build, albeit always mono colored for obvious reasons to the people in this forum.
I look forward to the suggestions.
2 Metalworker lists made it to top 8 of SCG Invitational Qualifiers, Gregg Spano got 4th, and there was another one at 2nd place.
@RaZe: sorry, I don't have any experience against Goblins.
If you want to beat Goblins consistently, you'd want to focus on a threat heavy list. The Welder combo lists can also outrace Goblins.
As for Smokestacks, it's currently a sideboard option and I am still in the process of figuring out what's the worst card in the main against G/B/x decks.
@RaZe: I notice you're from Sauga. Which store do you usually go to?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@nameless I would visit untouchables when I get the time for it. TeddyNMe is pretty @southcommon is pretty close to my house to. They used to have a legacy day, but on the occasions I went there were never enough ppl to play.
Legacy is not very popular here in Mississauga, even at Comic Connections Oakville no one ends up playing legacy on their legacy day.
The place I went to last week is Meeplemart, 247 Spadina Rd., Toronto, basement. Its a pretty neat place for it being in the center of Chinatown. They have a weekly Sunday legacy tournament and a premium legacy tourney monthly. Last time I went, there were 20+ people for legacy. Nice crowd too.
I need another sideaborging advice. I play 12-post Kuldotha MUD and against BUG Delver, my sideboarding is: -1 Trinisphere, -1 Blighsteel Colossus, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Staff of Domination, +2 Spellskite, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Batterskull, but I need Phyrexian Revoker too. What's your sideaboarding against BUG Delver?
Holy shit I used to go to southcommon too. I just hated how my schedule never worked to theirs, espcially Legacy and FNM Drafts. Though Breen and Mike are cool guys.
Jesus Christ I was there last week but didn't play because I had work that night.
We should all meet up. I'm coming from Brampton but I work in Etobicoke. Sauga's in between.
If you're following the Spano/Polimine list, I would even go as far as siding out all of the Trinisphere. Trinisphere is close to useless in that matchup. While it stops Daze and Force, Daze is a dead card when you get your Post lands going. Not to mention Cavern of Souls. Deathrite helps them get around 3Sphere and Abrupt Decay only costs one more. Also, if they run Lilliana, 3Sphere doesn't matter.
I wouldn't side out Forgemasters. Once you get it going, a well time Tinker into Sundering Titan could lock them out of the game. Not to mention they'll have a hard time dealing with Wurmcoil.
Staff of Nin also helps. While not being a threat and can't get rid of theirs, drawing multiple cards can help against their discard.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I've noticed that Trinisphere is almost useless in that match-up. What do you think about All is Dust against BUG Delver?
It also helps
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@(nameless one): haha. I'm sure we'll bump into each other one of these tourneys. And maybe even RaZe too. MUD ftw! It would be awesome if all of us make top 4.
MUD domination. If you ever see a green.MUD/stack of would be me. 😊
I randomly saw knarichs final match on twitch. Vs infect it was 1:1 and he seemed to scoop for no reason! I didn't stick around to find out why. Also i was 90 % sure Wayne Polimine was in the shop to.
Do you happen to have a link to the deck lists?
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
Link Obviously it are the two top lists.
Hey guys,
I playtested with a buddy and he played a Miracles list. It's the winning list from SCG Dallas.
I essentially played my page 68 list with a really long sideboard list. For reference:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds
Game 1: preboard
I win the dice roll and chose to be on the play. I keep my seven featuring 2x Mox, Wasteland, City of Traitors, Tangle Wire, Forgemaster, Lodestone Golem.
I went for a turn one land with nothing else. He did the same. My turn two is a Golem with the help of a Mox and City but it met a Force of Will. I resolve a Tangle Wire in the following turn to slow the game down. I tried to resolve more resistors but they got met permission. I managed to resolve threats but they met removal. He eventually flipped an Entreat and won from there.
Game 2: sideboard: +3 Smokestack, +1 Crucible, -4 Diamond.
The reason why I sided in Smokestack is because Miracles usually has a higher permanent count than a typical legacy deck (they can consistently make their land drop). The additional Crucible goes with Smokestack. Diamonds are out because they're card/board disadvantage and Miracles isn't exactly a fast deck.
I was on the play. My hand was Cloudpost, Vesuva, Factory, Sphere, Smokestack, Revoker and Metamorph.
I start with the Cloudpost while my opponent starts with a SDTop. I followed that up with Revoker which got FoWed. I did manage to resolve a Sphere. I ended up resolving additional Metamorphs that copied Sphere. My opponent did managed on finding more lands with the help of SDTop and managed to resolve an over costed V. Clique. That faerie started whittling on my life but I managed to top deck a Glimmerpost to buy me time. I managed to resolve a Smokestack with the help of Cloudposts. Since I had more permanents than my opponent, I ramped the Smokestacks to three counters, leaving the board almost empty (I had to get rid of some of my Sphere copies). I ended up resolving a Lodestone Golem and my opponent couldn't recover from it.
Game 3:
I was on the draw and kept a hand with Tomb, Glimmerpost, Factory, Chalice, Wire, Revoker and Forgemaster.
He doesn't do anything on turn one while I went for a Chalice @ 1. That Chalice was FoWed. I tried for a Revoker but that also got FoWed. This game was uneventful because he missed a couple of early game land drops while I resolved drawn resistors.
Game 4:
Again, I was on the draw. I mulled a one land starting seven and a no early play six (a Golem, Wurmcoil and only one mana lands). I ended up keeping a five with Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva, Wire and Smokestack.
My opponent goes for the early SDTop. He did allow me to resolve a turn two Wire to slow the game. I followed that up with a Tomb (drawn a turn earlier) into Sphere which got Pierced. I resolve an early Hellkite but it got Swords to Plowshared. This bought me enough time to resolve Smokestack which slowly ate his permanent. I managed to resolve a Wurmcoil but he's only got Disenchant for it. My Wurm tokens finished the job while protected by resistors that I eventually resolved.
Since games 1, 2, and 4 took a while, we didn't end up going for the fifth game. What I noticed is once the late game kicks in, Smokestacks helps you to catch back. It's important to make sure SDTop gets shut down by Chalice @ 1 or Revokers. Revokers also play an important part in stopping a resolved Jace as it's hard to beat. There's a possibility that I got lucky with my games though having multiple resistors could also play the part of not seeing the back breaking spells like Jace.
My test sideboard consists of about 20-30 cards so don't ask me how it looks. All I can say is Smokestack can find a slot there.
Any comments and questions would be cool. Also, any suggestions on which DtB I should playtest against?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Miracles is always an interesting matchup. In my experience they have a hard time dealing with a Lightning Greaves equipped Lodestone Golem. Any resistors will slow them down. Coupled with Sundering Titan and a well timed Wasteland is mostly enough. Like you said, Chalice @ 1 is also strong here. I have no experience with Smokestack, but i can imagine the combination between resistors and getting all lands destoyed is fatal. For Tangle Wire, it slows down the game, but i am not sure i am happy with that. They can still cast spells (Terminus/EtA/Venser/Clique/SCM) during upkeep and have a landdrop for Top or BS/StoP. I can imagine you playing manlands, but i would rather go with Cavern of Souls to make sure the big ones drop. Also Clique (or any flyer for that matter) can be a problem for us.
Elves has given me headaches in the past, but the more problematic are Patriot and to a lesser extend RUG and BUG Delver. Patriot just does seem to have an answer on everything we try to do...
@(nameless one): thank you for the playtest report. It was very helpful.
The game 1 pre-board hand was pretty iffy to me. 2 Mox, 2 lands, and no Chalice or Sphere is a hard decision to keep. Were you thinking of mulling that hand?
Please test against this burn deck, taking out the fetchlands and white, and changing the Wear/Tear in the SB to Smash to Smithereens, when you get a chance.
I'm currently testing out Knarich build's for a tourney in Airport Rd. this Saturday. I'll get back to Stax after and will test this if you're tight on time.
Thanks!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote