same answer as stuuch allready had given, creeping tar pit is able to stabalize your mana-developement, our options do the oppositeOriginally Posted by Valtrix
but still, it is not wrong to run a man-land, i have done so for a long time, but neither of the listed ones are the one i would suggest... the one i would run if i definitely want a manland is nantuko monastery, even if it is a bit situational and grave-dependant it gives the best options for a manland in our deck (even if not able to kill a planeswalker like creeping tar pit) because it can block and kill a batterskull and still live
allthough i will have to mention, that a manland in our deck would be most beneficial only if knight of the reliquary would be used as well, but in this case i think that the stage+depths combo would be even better to build around. as it is able to close the game immediately.
i really loved damions post about this one, that neither option is wrong to run
the reason i love this deck so much is that compared to most other decks running arround, you actually have to build your own deck, and not just run the stock list and still do well
the way i see it, is that, to fully understand this deck you will have to test all the possibilities and decide for yourself, depending on your playstyle and maybe metacomposition what you want to run
this is mostly the reason why this deck does not really have a "57-cards-core" compared to other deck. This deck at most has a "40-card-core" of the most unconditionally good spells, and the rest is up to personal preference and expirience, and its all about your own decision where you want to take the deck, hence all the different decks
all cards viable in this deck come with a certian package to them, where most of the provide a toolbox or are able to give us an edge in the matchups we either face the most, or have the most trouble with, and all of these packages have synergies to any other one and highly influence how the deck is running
my personal opinion on top vs. library actually is not that much different of anyone on this thread, meaning i lean towards library, but for a a few specific reasons
- library is able to win the games where top would just be a filter for searching answers and still struggle (vs. miracles, UWR, RUG, to name a few)
- gives you card advantage and selection compared to multitime-selection
- i do not run knights anymore so the multitime-selection of top is not as effective anymore
but the most important one, at least for me is, that it changes the gameplan/way the deck works
in any strategic game the one player that is playing proactively tends to have a slight edge over the reacting player, and that is the main difference between library and top.
library lets you pressure your opponent just by being there, being able to get you more cards for "only life" and no mana, and advancing your gameplan at the same time WITHOUT spending extra mana which in a midrange deck is more important for the early and midgame
top on the other hand really shines in the lategame or in a deck where you have mana to spare, which is not the case for most of the lists in this thread
but there are still some downsides to library, where the most important ones for me are:
- the manacost of 1G (=2) which makes it necessary to have G on turn 2 (which also makes hymn to tourach less consistent or harder to cast, therefore the 6-7 1-CMC discard spells)
- the CMC of 2 in a deck full of 2-drops, making it sometimes hard to decide which road to choose
allthough i have to say that in a decklist running hymn to tourach instead of the 6-7 1 CMC discard-spells i might be favoring top over library
it has become quite a long post now, just to underline Damians statement from before, which i want to apologize for, but i just had to add my two cents
have a nice day everyone
Hey all, I've been a lurker for a little while, finally got around to making an account.
I've been winning a lot of locals lately with this list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Golgari Charm
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gavony Township
1 Lingering Souls
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Most of the (good) players in my local meta are on miracles, so the Lingering Souls+Gavony Township plan has been pretty solid. Township has won me games, it's really solid at killing Jaces/people out of nowhere. Like any good junk deck the sideboard is subject to change a lot, so this is just what I have from this week.
The sideboard is a bunch of one-ofs, but it's a lot of extra copies of cards I already have in the main. Lots of very generic answers.
Long live Junk!
If they had made enemy color dual-manlands I'd probably use it as a 2-of at first (then a 1-of when remembering how obnoxious CipT lands are.
-Mishra's I'd use if I were on some kind of Urborg-Obliterator build (which isn't a thing in Legacy)
-Wildwood I've used in Nic Fit lists and if I had to choose; I'd run it. Still, it doesn't tap for B and in my deck that means it's garbage before you even get to CipT.
-Village is cute, but Wildwood's better mana and better butt means it's really only vulnerable to swords or double PFire. Blocking delvers is neat (though in my short test period with it it's worth mentioning that that never happened.)
I'll say that in place of a Manland I did testing with Kjeldoran Outpost and it was neat. It's better against fair decks than it looks and it's worse against miracles than it looks. That said, I run KotR with 1-2 Loams so it's issues as a 1-of sac-land of sorts were mitigated.
I've been playing UWr Delver for a number of months now, but have gotten tired of losing to Miracles and UB Tezz in my local meta. It's small, which means I frequently play against these decks so I can't just hope to dodge them. Near as I can tell, Junk Rock should have a pretty good matchup against them. Is this deck a good choice for a meta which features: Burn, Elves, UB Tezz, UWb Miracles, Deathblade, Dredge, ANT, D&T?
This is a rough list I drafted. I don't have Goyfs and am unwilling to pony up the $$$ for them at this time, so I'm on the SFM plan. Souls seem like better beaters in the face of Jace's anyway. Thoughts? The SB is incomplete. Any recommendations for the last three slots?
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Aura Shards
1 Maelstrom Pulse
With two bullet creatures, you could run 1-GSZ maindeck, especially since you already have the Dryad Arbor and it gives you 1 more way to get Teeg out of the board.
I think for your sideboard, I'd cut the Golgari Charm and Aura Shards for Krosan Grips (and possible the Pulse, but that's up to you if there are enough Walkers in your format). Aura Shards is far too slow, and you already have Decay and such. You're looking for unconditional removal, especially against Blade and Miracles. Plus, you're already running 2 ZP, so Charm is a non-bo with your Souls and unnecessary.
For the last sideboard slots, you could play extra combo hate (extra Miracle hate isn't necessary), extra Delver hate, etc. I'd suggest either Engineered Explosives against Delver decks, and stuff like Dredge, angel tokens, etc. or Pithing Needle against Jace, Top, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, etc.
Overall, list looks good.
-Matt
Matt, would you play the blue splash for Meddling Mages even if would be forced to play Watery Grave instead of U.Sea? I like the idea (and it works good!) but don't owe any Underground Sea.
I am toying with this sideboard. I am testing your list -1 Stoneforge, -1 Sylvan Library, +1 Goyf, +1 SDT recently and I am very satistied with the deck so far.
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Krosan Grip
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Engineered Plague
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Flex slots
Two empty slots could be: Batterskull, Thrun, Sylvan Safekeeper, Choke, Swords to Plowshares, Maelstrom Pulse, Thoughtseize or another target for E.Tutor. My meta consists mostly of Miracles, DnT, BUG variance, some RUG, ANT and then pretty much everything in small numbers.
When I read this thread some time ago, few people were using E.Tutor package but then left the idea behind. Why so? The variance of hate cards is so wide and we can play bunch of 1-ofs thanks to E.TUTor.
I shifted from Rock to Deadguy splash green (yes I know the differentiation can be very subtle) a while ago, so I haven't been posting in this thread. But I'm hitting a stumbling block and I'm wondering how you guys surmount it.
How do you beat BUG? I find the matchup very close and often coming down to how much resources each player has available.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Beating BUG is about sticking a creature and going all the way, and just out-removalling the BUG player. In Game 1, if you can play around Daze, do so, but if you can't, make them have it.
Use Decay on Goyfs, and save STP if you can for Tombstalker, Dark Confidants, or Deathrite Shamans. Ooze out of the board really helps, as does Sword of Feast and Famine.
So, if you can pack more removal out of the board, that's a plus. If you're mostly BW, bring in maximal STP/Decay counts and board out some discard because the game is going to go long.
-Matt
I sleeved up this seventy-five tonight to play at my weekly legacy. Went 3-0-1 with the draw being a round four ID to take first. I didn't drop a game all night.
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Krosan Grip
R1 - UB Tezz (2-0)
This deck is part of why I have switched to junk. I'm on the draw, he goes Ancient Tomb into Chalice on 1, stranding a DRS in my hand. I waste the tomb, then play double Bobs into more wastes and beat him down with Bob. Bring in Explosives, Teeg, and Doran. G2 he drops a T2 Cursed Totem negating my DRS. There was a Tezz involved somewhere, and some grinding until I drop Doran. I swing with him, the DRS, and Arbor. Dorans ability means DRS + Arbor kill Tezz who's at 3 and put him to 8. Swing lethal the next turn because Doran means DRS swings for two :)
R2 - Elves (2-0)
G1 I mull to 4 because the first few hands had either no land or only wastelands. But the 4 had a fetch, a Thoughtseize, and a Therapy. I took apart his hand while he was going on the beatdown plan. I land an Ooze to get me some life and blocks, then a Lingering Souls and a Therapy naming Craterhoof which I thought might be stranded in his hand (it was), and finally a SFM for Jitte. Jitte + Spirit = Elves has a bad day. Bring in STP, Zealous, Cage, Teeg. G2 a turn 2 Teeg shuts off his Green Sun. I kill a bunch of creatures until I get a Jitte online.
R3 - Belcher (2-0)
I had no idea what this guy was on. I kept a (probably not so good) hand of 3x SFM, Pridemage, STP, fetch x2. He's on the play, goes for it with triple Manamorphose and fails to draw whatever it was he was looking for. I drop the T2 Pridemage and proceed to hold up mana for it while deploying additional threats and finally hitting some discard. Bring in Teeg, Explosives, Hymn. G2 I have T1 DRS + Explosives. I don't recall the particulars but at one point he gets a Belcher out but is short the mana to activate it. But Library finds me a timely GSZ so I promptly find my Pridemage and nuke his Belcher. Eventually I just beat him down. Should I bring Doran in in this match? Seems like improving my clock would be a good idea... A spectator commented that he thought I should have been aggressively using DRS to drain, but I was spending all my mana every turn and had to keep 1 mana up for activating Pridemage. Pretty sure I'm right (he can kill me out of nowhere if I don't have that mana up) but I am not exactly a Junk (or Belcher) expert.
R4 - ID
Deck was fun, though going back to a deck w/o Force of Will was hair raising at times, especially since I had shaved a Therapy to make room for Green Sun. But the flip side is it was awesome to not give a damn about Chalice of the Void.
Played Team Italia tonight just because I wanted to try something different and went 3-1, losing to burn.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Wasteland
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear/Tear
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Duress
Lacking Abrupt Decay is really bad, but otherwise the list ran alright.
Also, someone asked if they should splash Mage using Watery Grave - I say no. You need to fetch and hit Thoughtseize as well, so taking an additional two is really bad.
-Matt
Figured I'd try working on a list that doesn't start with 4x Brainstorm, and give this ol' chestnut a whirl. I've played a couple of locals with similar lists (to decent success), but two or three tournaments don't exactly count for much.
He's my starting point.
Creatures (16)
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tarmogoyf
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Artifacts/Enchantments/Planeswalkers (4 / 1 / 4)
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
Instants and Sorceries (6 & 7)
2x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Thoughtseize
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Lingering Souls
Lands (22)
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
Sideboard (15)
3x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Duress
1x Thoughtseize
1x Karakas
Card Choices
Top:
I've spun a few tops in my time, so this might a comfort thing more than anything. If I listened to every word Matt says, this slot would be another Library (or two). I can see merits in having repeatable activations alongside fetchlands and GSZ, where Library only resets once per turn. Having a divide of 1/1 also helps getting around the issue of running into multiple libraries.
Edric:
It started out as a bit of a joke, but he ended up pulling his weight and much more! Works quite well with Lingering Souls, and lazy Mystics and Arbors. There's a possibility that I was already in a winning position, and Edric just helped me "win-more", but I'd like to gain some clarification on the matter.
Garruk:
This is a new one. Been meaning to give this gentlemen a whirl, after seeing him successfully utilized in a locals Jund/4C Junk list in recent times. Could be garbage, but I feel like this Planeswalker is being slept on.
Questions/comments/concerns? It has been a while since I've tapped Basic Forest, so I'm all ears!
Cowboy Magic
Dark Confidant and Top is a killer combo though. The ability to draw low cc spells or lands if you need them while keeping business on top of the deck between fetches is really powerful. I often have Abrupt Decay on top of the library for half the game when I have a top in play. That stops me from suffering a Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach with Decay in hand and then seeing the thing that is going to kill me land after that. Same thing with Liliana and Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict when I am using those as solutions for True-Name Nemesis.
I've tried Garruk a bit before. He's alright; I don't see a Legacy deck with him and cringe. His best features are the Deathtouch wolves against fair decks (good luck with their BSK or Goyfs!) and the fact he's 3G instead of 2GG. His casting cost is very forgivable outside of 4CMC and the fact he counts as sort-of sometimes removal is alright.
I had just 1-too-many games where I couldn't cast him because of his 4 mana that I dropped him. If he landed he often GG'd the opponent simply because he demands an answer within a turn or two so the wolves are under control. More power to ya if you bolt a guy.
That said, 4 mana is a lot and I can't imagine finding a slot for him in my current deck other than a Lingering Souls slot, but Souls just feel better. Toss to Lily, find it if I dredge a loam, easier to cast, good against Delver or Clique instead of terrible. I usually have Ensnaring Bridge in the side as S&T/random-aggro hate, which makes souls pretty good since they can chip someone to death through it.
i am well aware that dark confidant and top are a wonderfull combo, but my point was exactly what you said in your example. you do use top in a reactional way where you protect yourself from a theat that might land on the battlefield or from opposing discard.
sylvan library lets you do the same thing but in a different way, plus it lets you keep answers on top of your library as well.
it is true that this might cost you some life but overall library makes your life a bit easier because it makes it possible to threaten your opponent instead of reacting to your opponents threats
this probably comes down a lot to your preferred playstyle and will highly depend on what opponents you are facing
library allthough has the downside compared to top if you absolutely need to react immideately, which top is better in doing so, but in my opinion it is better not to get into the situation of having to react to opponents threats
let me try a different explanation
we are in fact a "tempo-control-deck".
depending on which stance you need more often to take in games you should prefer library or top, but also build your deck accordingly
IMO top is better in the controlish builds because it gives you more options to react, and how to react, and gives you a longterm-advantage because its virtually not possible to destroy top
library is better in the tempoish to midrange builds, because for those builds library will give you a tremendous advantage, but most of the time library gets worse the longer the game goes compared to top
EDIT: i hope i did not blabber some idiotic stuff.... because i am tired as hell :P
Im new to his thread and was wondering what the hard matchups/obstacles this deck traditionally has to overcome? A short answer is fine nothing too detailed but I've been brewing And I'm noticing this deck has really great answers to everything... At least in theory. Having to rely on black vs combo is probably the weakest aspect ive come across and that not really a weak point at all.
Id build it with 8-12 cards against combo (mainly 1 cmc discard), 10-14 against control (including removal, abrupt decay, stp, lotv, dark confidant, bitterblossom, revoker, deed, vindicate) and ~16 against aggro (kotr, sfm, goyg, drs, )
From there you can use the sb to weight you deck favorably against your matchups since its pretty even against the field.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Your main issue against Combo is the fact that you only play discard and some hatebears. You can't counterspell off the top, unfortunately. That's your big problem. Sometimes, combo will just topdeck and you lose. Ideally, you try to strip as many ways out as possible and land some hatebears and race them.
Another bad matchup is Burn, as well as Sneak and Show. With all the new Searing Blood effects, effectively getting Jitte online is tough. The matchup isn't impossible, but I have found it disfavourable without boarding heavily for it. Sneak and Show isn't great since we don't really play Karakas and/or Knight anymore. The best plan against us is to actually just Show and Tell a fatty. We have Needles for Sneak Attack, Teeg for hardcasting Sneak Attack, and I'm playing Mage to hit Show and Tell. However, at least I have no outs to Show --> fatty. Them's the breaks, but running SFM gives you better game against TNN, other midrange decks, and Miracles. In my experience with the deck
Favourable:
Patriot Delver
Miracles
Deathblade
Shardless BUG
Merfolk/Goblins
Painter
Even:
Team America
RUG Delver
Jund
Elves
Death and Taxes
OmniTell
Slightly Disfavourable:
ANT
Punishing Jund
Disfavourable:
Sneak and Show
TES
Belcher
Burn
High Tide
Last edited by sdematt; 08-13-2014 at 08:21 PM.
Thanks for the info matt
Without playing the matches its very much just speculation but it would appear that many of the lists posted could benefit from more discard main (great against combo and burn) and surgical in the board. Furthermore, maindeck canonist seems superior to teeg / thalia as 2-3x as it is strong against many of your weaker matches, tide, belcher, tes ant omni and elves. G1 is very important in those matches.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
How is jund w/fires different than punishing jund? You may have convinced me to put Fires of Yavimaya into my Jund deck.
Fixed! :P
-Matt
@apple713
Teeg is tutorable and good against Miracles; that sums that up. Teeg is still good against elves (possibly better than Canonist due to reclamation sage) and roughly as good against Storm while having application elsewhere. I'm finding it hard to like Canonist outside of W/x decks without green or some kind of Tutor-board.
I am attempting a discard heavy controlly variant and so far with some mixed success. I'll let people know if it's working for me when I figure out the rest of it. I've had a sinusoidal success rate with it.
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