Welcome!Originally Posted by seryou
As for your list, I'm really hesistant to play a list without Snapcaster Mage. Also, you'll probably be able to get away with shaving one of those plains.
I was under the impression that RIP-Helm was very bad vs bug decks because abrupt decay and golgari charm? If you want to play this with those decks lingering around, play Misdirection!
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
The last RIP list that I teched out was the one that carried me to Top64 at GP Strasbourg. (without any Byes, obv.) So I guess I'll just leave it here without any further explanation and updates, just in case somebody was interested.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroclasm
1 Batterskull
1 Humility
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterbalance
Greetings
Sorry but im not sure about its worth to play snapcaster running 3 rip in the main, but misdirection its a good idea ill test it.
That's a fair and seemingly obvious point. I feel oblivious.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
¿Why were you running polluted instead of scalding tarn?
Ive wondered about playing a mishra´s factory, i dont know what does make it sense. I only asking it, im not arguing, also i cant understand why you have a counterbalance and an entreat the angels in the sb,¿what are they good for?
Ein can comment better on why the Factory is there.
These are all my assumptions:
1) Delta is fine instead of scalding tarn if you aren't running basic mountain because it will still be able to hit all of the lands a scalding tarn normally could.
2) The extra counterbalance is for games where a counter-top lock will shut your opponent out of the game. It's amazing vs decks like RUG delver, Burn, Storm, and other decks with very low curves.
3) The extra entreat in the board is for matchups where speed matters, or when one of your other win conditions is outclassed by entreat the angels. Having a 2nd or 3rd entreat postboard is quite common even in more modern Miracles lists
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Definitely giving this a read this afternoon! Also, this article of yours was great! I'm very interested in seeing where you go with future instalments.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
How would one board against a Shardless Bant deck after seeing the following:
G1:
Shardless Agent,
Ancestral Vision,
SFM,
Thopter Foundry,
JTMS,
STP,
Academy Ruins
G2:
Flusterstorm
Pithing Needle
Meddling Mage
Using Einherjer's 75.
I'd start with something like so:
IN:
1 Keranos
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
OUT:
4 Force of Will
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Plains
1 Swords to Plowshares
Reasoning:
1 Keranos -- Shardless matches are generally extremely grindy, and one of the primary things their deck is trying to do is to get as much incremental advantage as possible. Thus, we want to be able to incorporate some advantage of our own. Keranos serves as a great replacement wincon to entreat that can't be flusterstormed or pierced, that not only kills almost every creature your opponent puts on the board but also can draw you cards and dome them.
1 Disenchant -- Great against any stoneforge decks, faster than Council's Judgement.
2 Rest in Peace -- Turns off thopter foundry as an out, getting rid of one of their wincons. This also disables our snapcaster mages, but only means that we would need to begin a more conservative line of play.
1 Counterspell -- We're going into the long game, and want to get as much use out of our snapcasters as possible
2 Vendilion Clique -- Awesome vs Stoneforge decks, as it lets you pluck equipment right out of their hands, just make sure you do it in response to the activation.
1 Engineered Explosives -- I chose this over council's judgement to give us an extra way to 2 or 3 for 1 our opponent, to try to hinder their value plan.
=====
-4 Force -- Almost an automatic move vs the fair decks. If this was BUG shardless and I needed to be worried about t2 liliana I'd be a little more inclined to keep a couple in but vs Bant you'd be fine without.
-2 Entreat the Angels -- Keranos is replacing Entreat as one of our win-cons, and flusterstorm means bad times for setting up miracles like entreat. Makes it a lot less reliable.
-1 Plains -- Generally if I cut the entreats, I'll cut a single basic plains, though this might be incorrect now. I'm used to miracles decks with 22 or 23 land.
-1 Swords -- We bring in EE in it's stead, as we really want more permanent removal, and EE on 2 could kill SFM, MM, and TF all at the same time!
Lastly, I'll mention that normally vs BUG Delver, I'd want to be as resistent to AD and Golgari Charm as possible, and would definitely keep my counterspells in, boarding out counterbalance.
Also, REB is a possibility here, but often these decks have 2-4 wastelands. Given that, I wouldn't want reb effects against them, and would rather play it out into the long game, only grabbing a mountain when we want to land keranos.
EDIT: It actually took me a while to decide on this.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Thank you very much, exallium!
That's interesting. I've never played ThopterBant yet, but this is how I would approach it. (Disclaimer: In contrary to my usual posts - this is neither backed up by either testing or experience with the MU)
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Force of Will
-1 Entreat the Angels
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Council's Judgement
+2 Rest in Peace
+1 Counterspell
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Disenchant
Explanation:
Swords to Plowshares will not trade efficiently with their friends just as SFM or Shardless Agent. Force of Will is unneeded, due to their high density of potential threats. REBs are for Foundry and Jace, whereas RIP might be an overreaction to Academy Ruins. Counterspell, Judgement and Clique supplement the traditional package of disruption. I think Keranos is pretty bad here, as he cannot deal with Tokens at all, Entreat isn't good at dealing with them too, but they can atleast pressure the opponent and sometimes hold off the Tokens for a turn or two. I am not sure but I guess something along these lines is reasonable. Counterbalance is super important, floating a 2 should be equivalent to a victory, more often than not. EE is very good too, but rather hard to fit in.
On the Mishra back in the GP Strasbourg Days. I always felt like playing less lands than everybody else. I started Miracles with 25 lands, ever since I dropped a land or two every now and then, hardly ever looking back. This was practically only half a land, as it had good additional purposes. It was neat, and I'd play it again, if there wasn't Ponder, which is way superior and somewhat restrictive, for that matter.
Greetings
Boarding plan looks good. But i would cut all my Swords to Plowshares in a Mu like that. They don't have a fast clock. You can take some hits of a Batterskull. Terminus, Explosives, Disenchant, Judgement, Blasts etc. are really enough to not die very quickly.
In addition to that you have to realize that the only relevant way to interact with you is Force of Will. They can't run softcounters (if he plays them they are only for the combo MU, where they board Agent out, because 3 mana tapout guy and finding no discard is even without softcounters not good) and don't play discard spells. So having 2 Entreat the Angels, 1 Keranos, 3 Jace postboard is very good against them, because they are huge bombs that will win you the game unchecked and they can only meaningful interact with it with FoW or sorcery speed cards like Detention Sphere etc.
Entreat is also kind of 5th and 6th Terminus in this MU if they don't play Nemesis.
I wouldn't change my boarding plan if i knew he's going to bring cards like Flusterstorm. I mean it's super retarded to bring them against us, because Shardless Agent is one of their best cards and Flusterstorm isn't even good against us.
It's definetely a very good MU for us. I played against it online a few times, and after a Turn 1 Vision I'm really happy when i figure out they are not on Shardless BUG. I mean they are worse in every aspect. They don't have a brutal fast clock like Tarmogoyf, they run slow stuff like SFM, and they don't even play discard or Liliana. The only dangerous angle of attack is Thopter Foundry.
Edit: Forgot to upload my browser. At least our posts complement each other^^
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Haha, I think the only point the two of you didn't agree on was boarding Keranos. I think I looked at keranos less like "The Abyss" and more like a card advantage engine.
I agree with cutting all of the swords. I also made a mistake forgetting that Foundry was blue, which def makes rebs a lot better. I also agree with the point about flusterstorm. I don't think this is a card that belongs in a deck running Shardless Agent, and the unavailability of soft counters in decks like this are a weak point we can take advantage of.
As for this matchup, I draw lines between it vs shardless and UWR vs BUG, though not to the same degree. They are trying to play into the late game, and ours is just plain better. Then again, there's a reason BUG s a Deck to Beat and Bant isn't really even on the radar.
RIP is a card I was originally on edge about, as there were no goyfs in sight, and our board wipes are tucking everything. I think that it is an acceptable card to play because it shuts off an entire win condition on their side (thopter foundry). There could be an argument that the correct split may be 1 RIP / 2 EE though, as simply dealing with the thopter foundry before they can really leverage it (hard without rocks / sol lands, like UB Tezz) cuts that off.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
From the article: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Part-2.html
I'm very curious now. How many people people board out Entreat the Angels in the mirror. I've always been of the opinion that Entreat is strongest, though not the most versatile card in mirrors. It's a dedicated win condition, but it works like an Ætherling in a lot of ways. You're opponent has at most 2 cards that can answer it once resolved, and given it's instant speed Explosives may not even work. You can never counter it with Counterbalance, it dodges Red Blast, and it's easily played late game around Spell Pierce by any stretch of the imagination, so in a lot of ways, it's the most reliable, difficult to answer threat in your deck.Both variants are valid branches from the general approach of not wanting white cards. One thing that might stick out is the absence of Entreat the Angels after sideboard, and you might be disagreeing. I'm a strong proponent of not keeping a card as unreliable and difficult to set up as Entreat the Angels in a match that is so much about mirroring your opponent's plays by creating crucial advantage due to a superior deck and a lower count of lands. Drawing more immediate business is key here; not the option to have an I-win button later in the game which is very likely to be countered by one of the taxing counters that have been stuck in your opponent's hand.
That said, I can see the upsides of keeping Entreat the Angels in sideboarded games. Having ways to win the game from a gamestate where you shouldn't be winning anymore is huge, but it comes with a price. I have too often lost against competent opponents deploying Engineered Explosives on zero in advance, leaving me not only with bad cards in my deck, but more importantly, with a hugely screwed up sequence, which lead to me playing to this very out, resulting in a number of bad choices. Of course, your opponent can get lucky and just find the one-of Entreat in the last possible turn, but I am fine with losing to that, as variance is part of the game but shouldn't be incorporated too heavily into your plan, after all.
The same principles as the ones mentioned above about the pre-board games apply to the sideboarded ones, but even more so, because there's hardly any reason to rush out your cards. You have to be patient, and you have to wait and hope that your opponent will make the first step. Additionally, you have the trump that is Keranos, God of Storms, a card that is not beatable once resolved with the lone exception of Entreat the Angels (but this card shouldn't be in their deck anyways). Another big factor in the mirror match are the flash creatures, which are extremely valuable due to their ability to pressure Jace. Besides, who would want to cast Red Elemental Blast on a Snapcaster Mage that was used to flashback a Ponder?
People talk about the card like it costs 7 or 8 mana, but realistically I rarely ever cast the card for more than 2. The only reason it should cost more than 4 mana to play is when you're literally 1-shotting your opponent on their end step. Just the fact that games usually turn when one person gets counterbalance locked, or Jace sits on board for several turns makes Entreat seem even better to me. Even when I'm ahead in the mirror, I always know I'm screwed if the resolve an Entreat, unless I have Explosives on board (which is basically a Nevermore; not the ideal way to be using it). I suppose Entreat's also susceptible to Clique, unlike Jace or Counterbalance, though.
I never imagined people would actively bring Flusterstorm in for the mirror, either. It's a purely offensive Conterspell that only helps you resolve threats.
I normally leave one entreat in my deck. With Keranos coming in I find it makes sense to swap out another win condition, and I find jace to be too powerful in this matchup to board out, regardless of his quick death to a resolved REB. Vendilion Clique is very good in the mirror, predominately for the reason you said, but also because they are generally boarding out all of their spot removal besides rebs, and honestly, I'd rather a reb be used on a clique than on a Jace.
In the past I would actually side in the extra entreat, but I now think that that is incorrect, for reasons detailed in that article. With 12 cantrips, we will see the majority of the cards in our deck every game, and don't need to introduce more copies of cards we never want in our opening hand.
I am, however, interested in pursuing the primer's advice and trying the mirror without entreats in the deck at all. There's some metagaming in the decision in how you board. Just because a player is SUPPOSED to be boarding out his entreats doesn't mean he will. I guess the same can be said about any card though.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
This is very close to how I'd approach the MU, although I don't much like bringing RIP in here. I also agree with Adryan about liking Entreat; they don't have many/any soft counter so probably the only way they can interact with Entreat is FoW. Though Einherjer will probably consider it blasphemous :p, I'd consider cutting one or two Ponders because bringing in 3 REBs encourages you to leave up more mana and gives you plenty of Snapcaster fuel.
-4 Force of Will
-2 Ponder
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Council's Judgement
+1 Counterspell
+1 Disenchant
Philipp has written another great primer for this deck. If you like his article make sure to comment it, so that we get another regular Legacy writer on SCG.
I have the same opinion as you, but from my experience 2 Entreat is just too much.
The one thing i disagree with Philipp is keeping Keranos in the mirror. And this is coming from a guy who is playing him in the maindeck and brought this card up in this thread for the 1st time. Although i agree that Entreat is kind of bad in the mirror, but let's be honest. Keranos is even worse. He's a 5 mana sorcery spell, that can be countered by a plethora of spells. Keranos can stick for turns without giving you nearly the same advantage as an unchecked Jace. You still can die to a protected Entreat the Angels or the opponent can simply remove it with Councils Judgement.
Both cards are incredible clunky and hard to cast the majority of the time but the advantage of Entreat over Keranos is the way the mirror plays out. As Philipp already mentioned in one of his article, having access to instant speed spells that force the opponent to spend mana on his turn (f.ex Clique) helps a lot with resolving your game winning spells. So if you keep one Entreat you have another "flashy" angle of attack in your deck, that demands an answer.
Yes Entreat is kind of clunky, requires a setup and is not at it's best in the mirror, but playing it only as a 1of over the 1 Keranos is better from my experience. You will rarely find a window to resolve Keranos or will feel comfortable to tap 5 mana for a card that unlike Jace will not make sure that you have won the game in something like 3 turns. In addition to that being CB locked and having a game winning spell will come up more often than you think. Despite that i would never play more than one copy of this card postboard, because having 100 % more Keranos/Entreat esque things in your deck is really bad.
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You're correct about Entreat. Entreat pretty much forces Shardless to either have mass-removal (Pulse/Deluge) or bust. However, I would not cut StP. You want every single removal here, mostly for Creeping Tarpit. Supreme Verdict doesn't cut it, your 2/1 or 3/1 doesn't stop it, Jace/Karenos cannot deal with it. What good is RiP in play, when you cannot deal with this pesky land? I say just focusing on what Ein's version does best: flashback every single removal you have. Eventually, Shardless will run out of dudes.
I would:-4 FoW, -2 Ponder, -2 Spell Pierce
or -4 FoW, -4 Ponder
Ein's list needs Red for Keranos anyway, the Blast targets such as Vision, Tarpit, and Jace/Brainstorm in some builds are just too important, it's more than worthy of the risk of Wasteland.
My post (and the last several) were in reference to Shardless Bant. Sideboarding between the two is close, but you're right that Shardless BUG can require some extra attention given to Creeping Tar Pit.
Regarding Flusterstorm or Entreat.
I think both are fine choices in the mirror and which is better depends on the rest of the list(s). If you are experienced playing the mirror flusterstorm gets better too. Entreat can win games you screwed up while also saving a lot of time sometimes you are under a quick cb-lock+jace and from that point Entreat also is an out. I don't think it's fair to say that flusterstorm do nothing against CB/Jace because most things resolving involve counterspells of some kind. Im currently stretching that fact as far as saying EE/disenchant/CJ are bad because neither help you fight the stack.
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