Just started trying GU 10 post about a month ago since my usual deck Reanimator is not well positioned right now between all the Delver decks and Deathrite shaman and I like bashing with big creatures.
Having problems with the following match ups.
Burn seems hard to win even with boarding in Forces and Blue blasts. Price of Progress just owns you. If you don't have counter or Crop Rotation for Chasm in response you will likely lose the game from a resolved Price of Progress. Only running 2 Basics. Eidelon also is a huge beating since you take damage from Map, Top, Crop that you need to develop your mana.
Infect is also a huge beating and is likely to see an uptick since it top 8ed a SCG lately. Maybe 4th Repeal would help but it doesn't even work on Inkmoth Nexus and they may have the Vines. More Moment's Peace board?
BUG Delver is a huge pain with Discard, Counters and Wasteland. You want to wait to play around Daze but you then get hit by discard. Liliana is pretty annoying making you discard and turns off show and tell unless you Show and Tell a Titan and get Garden. Garden helps with the plant to sack to Liliana if you do resolve a show and tell into Titan but slows your get an Eldrazi plan.
Against Delver decks do you play around Daze with your Top/Map/Needle or do you just jam it? BUG delver hits you with discard so you are put in a use it or lose it but running your stuff out into Daze just seems bad.
Also have a few questions for those playing the deck awhile please.
So Kozilek vs Ulamog or both?
Kozilek draws you 4 which is really good if your getting hit by discard. Kozilek also costs 1 less mana which has come up a few times. Ulamog destroys a permanent which gets rid of Ensnaring Bridge and other annoying things that stop you from winning. If your boarding Ensnaring Bridge Ulamog seems like the better choice.
Hard to find room to fit both though.
So what anti aggro cards should I be running sideboard?
All is Dust costs 7 which is not always possible to cast in time before you lose. Tried 2 board and wasn't to impressed that week.
Elephant Grass ties up my own mana so interferes with casting my own spells to develop my board. Tried 2 board and didn't like them.
Engineered Explosives has been good answer to Empty the Warrens or multiple Delvers and is good on 1 or two if I have the colored mana to use it but can be not very good against varied costs or things that cost more then 2. Not sure if I want a second one board. I run 1 main deck with Trinket to fetch it.
Moment's Peace stalls for 2 turns if it doesn't get countered, hit by discard or deathrite shamaned. I play against too much BUG Delver since my brother plays it. It does not stop burn and requires mana on 2 seperate turns but does not cast as much as Elephant Grass ultimately does but requiring colored mana can still hinder development. Been running 2 between main and board.
Ensnaring Bridge often got destroyed by Abrupt Decay/other removal or you can't empty your hand fast enoughif your holding Eldrazi or Primeval Titan or get wastelanded off colored sources. Deathrite Shaman also gets around Bridge which is a problem since you can be at pretty low life by the time you get your bridge down and your hand size down. Tried 2 in the board.
Propganda doesn't stop the one big fatty from beating you. Didn't actually try this.
Blue blast vs Flusterstorm or a mix of both?
Blue Blast is better against burn but Flusterstorm is better vs Dredge, Combo, and Storm.
@Sauce
Congrats on your finish.
@maChooga
Needle on Top is the best way to fight Miracles hurting their card selection and turning off the ability to float miracles on top. Fetch for Forest early so can cast prime time off forest + vesuva on Forest if they have a blood moon.
Krosan Grip is pretty good since it gets rid of Bloodmoon, Counterbalance, Eidelon, Null Rod, Vortex, among other things.
Karn I think depends if there is alot of Miracles. It didn't seem that good to me in other match ups
Lands really depends if you can get Pithing Needle on Wasteland before they start recuring Wasteland with Loam. Crop Rotating or Maping for Bog to remove their Life from the Loam and using Vesuva to copy it vs further Loams is great but be aware of cycle lands they may have to get their loam back in response. You have Repeal and Karakas to deal with their Marit Lage token if they Thespian Stage/Dark Depths Combo. Chalice in the board to set on 2 to lock out Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire is pretty nice too.
@Davek
@J-Funk
I remember running Teferi's Response years ago in the sideboard of Keeper for Vintage as an anti wasteland measure. Back then there wasn't any Spell Pierce or Daze so Teferi's Response was great.
Crop rotationOriginally Posted by J-Funk
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This past weekend there was a Duel for Duals where I showed up with Snow-Post. Total there were 75 people that showed up for the event... here's what I've learned...
My build was a realitively stock list with the glacial chasm main, one of both wurmcoil engine & obstinate baloth in SB.
Rounds 1 and 2 were against RUG delver and miracles respectively. They were realitively painless. Record: 2-0
Round 3 was against the Mirror match?!? My opponent was on the UG 10-Post vs. my snow-post. Despite us both having "nearly infinite" colorless mana, we determined the UG Post build trumps the Snow-post build. Game 1, I was put into the position where I had to Marit Leige or die to Eldrazi. Unfortunately, I knew that I was playing directly into a Repeal. Game 2, we both had two Eldrazi's in play. My opponent was able to survive Annihilator 10, whereas I was not. Ultimately, I had a pair of sacred grounds in play to hedge against the annihilator. The first one was krosan gripped and the 2nd was repeal. I was the one with no permanents left lol. This was one of the most fun and ridiculous games of magic I've ever had. Record: 2-1
Round's 4 and 5 were against BUG delver and Shardless BUG. Between grafdiggers cages and null rods, I wasn't able to do too much. I did drop a obstinate baloth into play on turn 2 against shardless. It did 12 damage and then got outclassed by a 5/6 tarmogoyf. I don't think it's worth a sideboard slot. Record: 2-3
Round 6 was against Lands. Game 1 I got turbo dark depths. Game 2, I grinded out a win in the second game. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time for a 3rd game. Record 2-3-1
Round 7 was against Shardless BUG. This time their hate cards didn't show up and I took infinite turns. :-) Record 3-3-1
Even though I didn't top 8, I had a blast. It turns out that my Round 3 UG 10-Post player did top 8 however.
II've thought about but against most decks, it's up to four cards to deal with four cards (their Wastelands). That's not worth the space because there's so much more to deal with than Land destruction, but if your meta has more of those effects you mentioned, then let me know how your testing goes.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
[QUOTE=Kirika;829129]
@Davek
QUOTE]
I suppose there should be a message for me here...?
I'm a fans of this fantastic deck. May I ask why the MD Revokers has been abandoned in your latest building?
Besides, I got my own 12-post deck days ago, but I find it is really a trouble fighting against BUG delver. Are there some recipes in this match-up?
Thanks for your consideration!
In my experience, this deck has two tough matchups from commonly played decks:
- BUG Delver
- Elves!
Omnitell and MUD are also very bad but thankfully are not commonly played.
I personally would much rather face Burn, ANT & Belcher than BUG delver and Elves.
I think the games that are hardest to win vs BUG delver are the ones where they attack your hand via Thoughseize/Hymn/V.Clique.
If they have any pressure at all to back up the hand disruption, it's almost impossible to win.
Your best bet is to play around LD in the matchup via basics, smart fetching, crop rotations and try to resolve S&T into a Titan.
You will RARELY get to hard cast a Primetime in the BUG Delver matchup due to hand disruption, wastelands and the delver/goyf clock (as well as FoW/daze/Liliana).
I sideboard in: 1 Relic, 1 Revoker (for DRS/liliana/chumping), 1 Moment's peace. I take out 2 Expedition Map and 1 Candelabra (I only run 1) because they are not great at keeping you alive early and also 2 of them grow Goyf by sacrifice. Also they have decays fwiw.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
The BUG MU is discussed thoroughly in this thread, so read a little further back for more info.
This matchup is rough if you play into their game plan. It is still very winnable, and I feel favored. Most of what sauce said I agree with except for the assembling SnT+Titan plan. My BUG wins are actually most often with a hardcast Titan, and seldom with SnT. The reason is that their deck is built to prevent decks from assembling multi card combos (sneak+guy, SFM+business) through black disruption and instead forces oppents cards to be good on their own, where BUGs individual card power is very high. SnT does nothing on its own, so leaning on it is playing into their strategy. Same goes for candle. I side most of them out.
Instead, playing small ball and interacting with their creatures enough to live and hit land drops is the best plan IMO. The worst possible line is hitting 4 lands, having a map out, and SnT Titan in hand, only to be blown out by hymn. Ideally, you have access to a basic, and Multiple Tops, Brainstorms and Repeals - Cards that boost your chances of drawing cards with higher individual power. I won't keep a hand without a top or brainstorm. You'll find your Titan soon enough. I side in extra needle, flusterstorm, and EE, to increase interaction.
Good plays are Repeal Delver, Crop respond to waste, Needle Liliana, moments peace. Map is just fine if you don't tap out and expose it to abrupt decay. Bad plays usually involve having your hand has your #1 resource, which is easy to fall into.
Cards to consider adding if you want more weapons are Oracle, then Oracle 2, GSZ, Trinket Mage, Khalni Garden.
Tim, I agree w/ S&T being "bad" because of what you said.
The games I recall winning vs BUG delver are usually off either A) quick S&T that resolves B) Opponent that keeps incorrectly and/or sequences plays incorrectly C) Opponent has a creature heavy draw w/o land/hand disruption.
It's not possible to beat the BUG delver's nut draw w/ our nut draw. You need to draw better than average to beat their average draws. I don't consider myself favored and I play 1 Khalni garden, 1 Oracle, 1 Trinket mage and 1 EE main as well as 1 Moment's peace.
You obviously "can" resolve a hardcast titan but in my experience it occurs when they don't disrupt your lands/hand or they have no pressure to go with all the disruption.
If you don't have cavern you can also go for the S&T bait into hardcast next turn.
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Have you guys tried All is dust? I found it working fine against both decks. Elves player usually have to clog the board with tons of elves in order to find the highest number of Quirion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiotes to untap D.rite Shaman multiple times while you're hiding behind Glacial Chasm, so it usually wipes them out, while it can save you from a compromised situation against BUG taking care of Liliana, Delver and Tarmo in a single shot. It works expecially well when your opponent has ticked up Liliana for some turn because chances that he has 2 blue cards for Fow are thinner.
Avoiding any artifact hate is a big plus in my opinion, but of course you have to reach a critical mass of mana to cast it, which is not always easy.
Except that DRS will be bounced back to their owners hand with Symbiote in response to your All Is Dust. You can make a fine trade here but it's not guaranteed to save you between your opponent being able to refill his hand and board with Glimpse and having saved DRS and the like to rebuild fast.
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DRS has no haste and is not very good on it's own without all the untappers and Birchlore Rangers, so you usually have gained 1-2 turns more to live and take the game over. If this deck has reached a sufficient amount of mana in order to cast All is Dust it is very possible that you have the opportunity to hard-cast a Titan the very next turn, gaining enough lifes to keep that Glacial chasm alive one more turn, allowing you to go infinite. It's not a matchup i'm happy to face anyway, no doubts.
Of course this deck will lose to the grail hands of pressure+disruption+LD. Our lists are built to handle pressure and fight through LD. But I think what needs to be communicated is that fighting sorcery speed disruption requires instant speed interaction (top, storm, crop, repeal), as opposed to fighting through blue permission with sorcery speed threats (sacrificial SnT, artifacts, treats), like against RUG delver. While well practiced pilots will have an easy time against rug, keeping the same approach against bug will bring trouble quick, it's a totally different animal.
Regarding Elves, if you're already progressing after chasm lands, 7 mana should be a next turn combo win over all is dust in my opinion. Moments peace in multiples has really helped this MU so much. I play EE as my favorite sweeper and I think it's better than all is dust against both elves and bug.
Work been taxing me hard lately but lately it loosened up. Still no time for weekend events sadly, but with weekly magic being possible I am back to testing and theorycrafting.
Have been looking again at bonfire and testing Kurkesh. Results are intriguing.
What purpose does Kurkesh ever serve in this deck? Is there something huge I'm missing about it?
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
I guess it's a draw engine with Top, double tutor with Map and double untap with candelabra (but this is the icing on the cake, maybe in this version they are not even included).
What annoys me is the double red in the casting cost and the activations require R: if it was less color intensive it could be very useful.
Ignorance is strength
Really thanks for all of the instructions!
And I fully aggree with you. BUG delver are attacking in 4 directions, clock, countermagic, lands destruction and discard. I could beat BUG when they have massive creatures or some narrow means, but seldomly win when they are attacking all around, especially ate a 2-turn hymn. That's what I'm struggling.
I'll test Oracle and EE (already using the Garden when I asking for help), hope they could help.
Flusterstorm might seem like an odd thing to side in against BUG but I'll put one or two in over candles or SnT to allow me to snag a hymn, or push through a crop rotation or something. It's nothing crazy but it's tool to fight their disruption rather than dance around it.
Great to see you back ☺ I'm really curious about your return to R, perhaps you can tell the red cards (is there something else besides BotD and Kurk?) and the involved artifacts, please? Right now I'm tinkering with Firespout, but only as SB option...
Haven't posted in a long time, but I took 6th at a 33-person weekly Legacy event at my LGS with this list:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Exploration
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
8 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Primeval Titan
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
Round 1 - Jund NicFit
This wasn't very close. I steamrolled my opponent 2-0 in less than 15 minutes.
Round 2 - RUG Delver
I lost this one, which was fairly unusual, even off mulligans to 4 and 5. Game 1 lasted about 40 minutes, with me hiding behind a Chasm and Tabernacle. I used multiple Vesuvas to copy Thespian's Stage, which let me hang on at 2 life by repeatedly resetting Chasm. Unfortunately, I kept on topdecking lands, but no tutors or threats. My opponent eventually found double Stifle for my Vesuva/Stage + Candelabra, leaving me unable to copy Chasm in response to upkeep, and could Bolt me for lethal. Given the time left, I mulled away a reasonable but slower hand in game 2 and got punished for it. I kept 2x Ancient Stirrings, Forest, Needle, Candelabra, drew Cloudpost, Glimmerpost and All Is Dust, but couldn't find a second Post in time to wipe his board.
Round 3 - Miracles
Unsurprisingly, this was a very quick 2-0.
Round 4 - Lands
I almost snap conceded when I saw pairings. Aside from it being the worst possible matchup, my opponent is a very skilled player. Fortunately, I decided to play it out. I scooped game 1 fairly quickly to a Wasteland/Loam lock so that I'd actually have time for post-SB games:
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Primeval Titan, +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Tabernacle, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Maze of Ith, -3 All Is Dust
[Note: My maindeck is 61 cards and sideboard is 14, which is why it's +7 and -8. Essentially, I preboard Tabernacle in game 1 for the free wins. It's worked very well so far.]
In game 2, I was able to Surgical his Loam very early. My opponent had Dark Depths and Wasteland on board. I played Cloudpost to bait his Wasteland, then responded with Crop Rotation into Thespian's Stage to make my own Marit Lage to kill him on my next turn.
In game 3, I had a slow start after a mulligan but had a T1 Needle naming Wasteland. My opponent didn't have a loam but dropped Revoker naming Expedition Map and proceeded to beat down while I dropped a few Posts. He found Loam and cast Intuition to get Depths, Stage, and Karakas. I gave him Karakas, then Surgicaled his Loam. A topdecked Krosan Grip let me kill Revoker and find Eye of Ugin, which let me find and cast Kozilek, which in turn drew a Candelabra, which in turn let me find and cast Ulamog.
In 3 years of playing the deck, this was my second time ever beating Lands. Both times were against skilled pilots who've top 8ed multiple SCGs with the deck, so I'm quite pleased.
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