I think e tutor boards are fairly common. Some people are more on that plan than I though. I only use it for devastating effects, plus I like having a real side board for the most part.
Here's my current list:
2 Zealous persecution
2 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdiggers Cafe
1 Perish
1 Choke
Sometimes I'll have a second perish over the cage because both are good against elves, but perish is solid versus the BUG decks
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
My current sideboard is:
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stoney Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disfigure
2 Zealour Persecution
Tutor can also find the maindecked Spirit of the labyrinth.
The 8 discard isn't terrible, but I feel like your total deck is pretty weak to combo. The 8 discard is a decent start, but aside from that you have a tutor, a Canonist, a Stony Silence, and a Spirit.
I think the 2x Seal of Cleansing should go; for any hatebear that matters (probably a pair of Thalia, a Tutor and a Canonist, or some such.)
I have a spirit main as well. I forgot about pithing needle since I let my friend borrow it. I'm not sure what I'd drop for it, but I would certainly play a needle somewhere
There is actually quite alot of hate after the board. Need to attack them on many diffrent angles, A Ethersword Canonist wont stop a storm deck really from go off on turn 3 or 4, neither would a Thalia. Against storm after board I have 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Inquisition, 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth, tutur, Ethersworn Canonist, Stony Silence, Grafdiggers Cage, and 2 Pithing Needle with wasteland.
The amount of show and tell decks in europe is way lower then they are in US.
For the seal I like it more then Disenchants as it can come down before Counterbalance gets cast. Only card Im thinking of cuting in the board is the o-ring for an other tutor.
Yes they do. Canonist says "you have to kill me to win" which actually *does* keep them from winning T3/4 because unless they have natural kill-spell/bounce they can't wish + kill it in one go; and even if it were another hatebear, 5-6 mana is a lot for thalia and 4-5 mana is a reasonably high amount to waste on your "go off turn" if you have Teeg or some such.
My complaint is also that Spirit does roughly nothing IMO since it doesn't stop any means of attack (PiF chain, AN, natural Warrens/Tendrils.) You're banking on them needing to cantrip instead of them having the unlikely "I have 4-6 extra mana AND an extra wish." When a deck can reliably go off T2; you need something that says "you have to wait a turn or three"; which gives you time to beat in, set up DRS with open mana (or other grave hate), and get their life low enough for AN that they can't reliably use it. This leaves them with natural warrens/tendrils.
8 discard is a good start, but you need things that say "you can't win" and I really think it should be 1-2 more hatebears (or a 1/1 split with a second tutor.) The reason is because they can just topdeck their win out of nowhere. SS is good here. Canonist is good here. Tutors are OK here. I think I'd even prefer a bunch of Scullers to the Spirits and Oring.
Also, how is Pithing Needle storm hate? On lands? I feel like you've played against ANT too much and not TES; which FME is generally much stronger. Revoker is OK hate, but Needle doesn't do anything here unless you're getting a lucky fetch with it. Cage is fine to board in, but I don't count grave hate as storm hate generally since they don't have to rely on PiF to win.
If I'm honest, I don't like O Ring as S&T hate either. You have to show it to them first, they have to not have sneak attack and it's pretty bad against Griselbrand. I feel like if you're going that direction then you should go Ensnaring Bridge. It doesn't matter what they Show into play then and you are guaranteed safe while you're plinking them with DRS. O Ring isn't generally good for Omnishow either; given that they typically want to go off in a "safe" way (trickbind with wish) and with a Tutor you tell them that they want to go off "now" or with a wish; depending when you do it.
I realize why you have Seal, I'm just saying that it's pretty garbage. You could do the same thing with a light green splash (1 Bayou, 1 Savannah?) and use Decay or you could use QPM in the same manner you're suggesting.
I also feel like using pack rat without Mutavault is weird. It's a free combat trick that happens to be decent against miracles as is (manland) and you're running 25 lands. If you're going to be 2-3 lands above normal those slots should pull their weight. Cabal Pit would also be acceptable IMO.
Hi guys,
Megadeus, I saw your mainboard Revokers and i love your idea, i just have to play those. I removed 4x hymn for 2x Revoker and more 1 cc discard. I like to play discard before dropping a Stoneforge to make sure it sticks, and i feel that 1 cc discard is also very important in the combo matchups. The revokers should help with Elves, Sneak and show and combo, which i find all quit hard matchups.
Most of you guys don't seem to really like the tutors, any reason behind this? I play 3 tutors side, reasoning behind this is that i now can board in 4-offs of a lot of important enchantments/artifacts. I also like the Bridges sideboard, although i have not tested this very much. My reasoning for them is that they are great in the sneak and show matchup, and should generally be awesome in combination with a liliana (maybe should run 4 liliana). Furthermore our creatures should not be hindered by it, except for confi and Revoker (with whom u most likely won't attack anyway). All our creatures are 1 toughness, which means they should be able to attack anyway. They can even carry a jitte.
I also don't see a lot of Sensei’s Divining Top? I really really love this card, it has won me many games, especially post board where i need a specific hate card to win the game. Furthermore they are great in grindy matchups.
I feel like i want more sideboard Combo hate, but i do not know what. Thalia might be the best option? I have found that one canonist can slow them by a lot (they need to find bounce) but is often not enough to win the game. Two canonists are game though. I've tested Spirit, but it is worthless, dropping him turn two does not stop them from going of nor does it really slow them down. Ur better of playing discard than spirit.
Any coments or tips on my list are welcome!
Creatures (14)
4#Dark Confidant
4#Stoneforge Mystic
4#Deathrite Shaman
2#Phyrexian Revoker
Spells (19)
3#Thoughtseize
3#Inquisition of Kozilek
4#Lingering Souls
4#Swords to Plowshares
2#Vindicate
3#Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (5)
1#Batterskull
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
1#Umezawa’s Jitte
2#Sensei’s Divining Top
Land (22)
4#Verdant Catacombs
4#Scrubland
4#Marsh Flats
4#Wasteland
2#Bayou
3#Swamp
1#Plains
sideboard (15)
2#Zealous Persecution
1#Circle of Protection: Red
1#Engineered Explosives
1#Engineered Plague
1#Choke
1#Grafdigger’s Cage
1#Rest in Peace
2#Ensnaring Bridge
2#Ethersworn Canonist
3#Enlightened Tutor
I do run with Mutavault. I have considered with Decays as well.
Against storm we need to attack on many diffrent ways. Ye, there is alot ANT here. I dont know exactly how they board but I know the bears will get bounced, Slaughter Pacted, Dread of Nighted, Massacred, hurkyls Recall etc etc unless attack them on other fronts. Being able to attack their hand, mana, ways do draw new cards and limit their amount spells they can play per turn might give enough turns where they no longer can go of.
The way you make Spirit work is hiting them with discard effects and spirit them so they cant dig for the card they need. And hope you can land more discard, Stony Silence to shut of artifact mana or canonist without geting that bad plains so you lose you board against massacre.
@Space
Tutorboards are alright. They're certainly fun to build. I'm wary about it since the card disadvantage can hurt. I've also (user error) had tutor targets I didn't realize I needed to board in where it cost me a match that was salvageable. Their issue, if I should express it, is that it takes the extra one mana (so if you need a cage T1 for instance, you can't get it) and that they tend to overextend the tutor-targets to cover MUs that the targets are either mediocre in or plain uncommon. When I ran a tutor board I had Serenity (and yes, there is an affinity player here, but still..), ORing (no longer convinced this works well), and a few other "meh" cards.
Another issue is that Topdecking a tutor *sucks.* It's not actually another copy of hate, it's another copy of hate *next turn.* If you have the time and it's a blowout card, by all means. For me, I just try to build boards with versatility in the cards and overlap in different areas. I.E. Nihil Spellbomb and Cage often come in similar MUs; but cage is live for elves, and spellbomb is live for lands or Junk decks.
Yeah as a top deck that you need to answer now, E. Tutor isn't that great. However, I recently switched into having 2 tutors in the board.
Played at a SCG Invitational Qualifier. WON. 3-1-1 in the swiss. And 3-0 in the top 8. Beat Elves, Burn, CDN Threshold in the swiss. Lost to CDN Threshold and ID'ed with Painter. In the top 8 beat Oops all Spells (he got to go first as well), Death and Taxes and Imperial Painter in the finals. Not sure if I'm gonna go to the Seattle open or wait for something hopefully closer to home....
Bob was the MVP as usual. He didn't kill me, even when I had 2 out vs Death and Taxes. Came awfully close though....was down to 3 life, with 1 bob left (other I sac'ed to Therapy)....flips a Swords to Plowshares.
First time I used the Enlightened Tutor board. Only used the tutors vs Burn and Oops. Got to use it against Oops, getting Rest in Peace.
Spacebeest. Deck seems fine. I would suggest in the board a Humility and/or Toxic Deluge. Perhaps take out an Ensnaring Bridge for a Humility. Also, since you play 4 Lingering Souls, I'd suggest at least switching out one Inquisition of Kozilek for a Cabal Therapy.
Never thought about therapy being sweet to sacrifice a Bob at low life to. That's awesome. Congrats on the win. I think I'm going to use my invitational next year in Richmond.
Grtz on your results wilkin, great to see a good performance.
Any chance on a more elaborate tournament report? i'm especialy curious to the matches vs Elves and Burn, both are prety bad matchups i think.
and with respect to the tutor board, where you disapointed by it?
any reason why you dind't use the tutors vs thresh? you have at least Rest in Peace sideboard as you said, possibly engineered explosives, choke, ensnaring bridge?
Went 3-1 tonight beating what was like a budget Vial Maverick build. Dunno why he scooped when I was tapped out with a BSkull, Jitte and a few dudes on board even though he had a Revoker (on Lily) with a Sword of Light and Shadow and a pridemage in the yard. He scooped and it surprised me. Then I lost to Grixis Dak Fayden. It was just a weird game. Then beat Miracles and then beat Elves in the top 8.
As for the Elves MU, maybe I just have played some sub-par players or something, but I have generally found elves to be like a 50/50 MU. Kind of favoring whoever is on the play. Any game we begin with a Deathrite on the play is very tough to lose it feels like. Also I play Perish which may affect things a little bit differently from those who don't. As for the burn match up... I am honestly not sure what to do to shore the MU enough without devoting too many horrible slots to it. That's the one deck I have really struggled against lately.
Really just getting ready for SCG ATL next weekend. Looking to run it back!
Back in 2006, I was playing what would today be called the ancestor of esper.deck
Burn was already a thing and I spent a lot of time to hate it without diluting to much the deck.
1) If you beg for life
As far as Pikula/DGA is involved you could consider the following cards if your point is to not only play CoP in the board along with tutors:
- Descendant of Kiyomaro -> was my personal choice (instead of say Pulse of the Field) but requires double white.
- Genju of the Fields -> Hard to remove but requires 3 mana
- Sun Droplet -> affected by smash but pretty devastating
2) If you beg for racing your opp
This is unlikely to happen against burn. But hey, why not ?
- Phyrexian crusader -> The "black" mirran crusader. It is, IMHO, wrongly underplayed in legacy right now. Does not fear punishing, sword, bolt either. It could have a devoted slot up to 2 MD in black centred DGA. Alongside with CoP and tutor in the board, this would be my choice as you would be diluting less your deck.
- Vampire Nighthawk -> Not much to say, here. One of the best "middle" guy available in black. Useful in a lot of MU and requires your opp to react. Soft to every removal in DaWorld but hey it can't have it all.
Double white sucks but...:
- Auriok Champion -> Already mentioned in this thread, I guess. Very good against burn rather *meh* against the whole meta
- Fiendslayer Paladin-> New toy but poor toy. Partial protection from Black & Red but still ahead when it comes to MU where racing IS relevant. First strike/Lifelink is nothing to scorn at.
Side note:
I strongly advise not to overload on the "discard" plan against burn. Guerilla tactics is a big deal.
You play enlightened tutor, right? Sphere of Law?
Also yesterday played 3-1 with the deck, loosing one game to my manabase. Almost forgot, what means the power of Vindicate =)
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Congratulations megadeus and door, well done!
Megadeus, still playing the revokers and where they perform again very well?
Door, can you share some more details of your tournament, like what you played against?
You are right about the elf matchup, I just remembered that I was unable to beat my friend with elves, but then I remembered that he only wanted to play pre-board because I have too much scary stuff in my board. I think the matchup pre-board is pretty hard. I felt like I needed at least 10 StP to have a chance. Jitte sounds good, until they have Wirewood Symbiot. They also win deathrite battles because they can untap them with Quirion Rangers. I’m only glad they usually don’t play Progenitus anymore since we can’t deal with it.
Post board things become much more easy though. So maybe it is a 50/50 matchup.
For the burn matchup there are a two viable sideboard options I think:
Enlightened Tutor + Circle of Protection: Red / Warmth. Warmth has the advantage of not requiring any mana after it hits the table, however they can still theoretically win with it in play.
Other option would be 4x Leyline of Sanctity. This requires more dedicated space in the sideboard, but they are helpfull in other matches as well.
Also Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist are helpful in the match. Discard is fine, especially hymn is good. I don't think guerrilla tactics is played nowadays.
I think any of the options posted above are less good then these. But I cannot say that I have tried any of them.
A local guy went 3-1 with a deck that looks something like:
14-20 creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Tidehollow Sculler
16-18 non-creature spells
4 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3-4 Zealous Persecution
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
22-23 lands
1 Bayou
21-22 other lands
he beat a pair of Junk decks (including me) and I'm unsure on the other MUs. This seems like it'd have strong interaction with elves. I suspect the list is missing Bob, Lily, and probably a pair of vindicates. But, if you notice the deck swarms pretty hard and can survive multiple -1/-1 effects while always having more flyers. It was pretty obnoxious to face.
All that evasion and no SOFAI to get triggers off of?
Yes, it is not played but...
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7972&f=LE
It might be coming soon.
Speculations aside (meta...) // 4 LoS in the board is rather a LOT of space dedicated to hate some combo.deck
I was more talking about 1 or 2 cards to help the burn matchup rather than something quadlazzered.
The given breakdown is rather limited and obviously Thalia/cannonist are already included in most DGA boards as other tools to dampen burn assaults.
If you treat "burn" as a T4 combo kill deck, then:
1) Slow him down = discard, creature that must die (thalia, canonist, SFM, DRS)
2) Stabilize (usually burn player is hellbent) and win = this step enforces you to win the race (topdeck bolt???Ouch) either:
- by outpowering your opponent
- or by gaining life
These two conditions can only be reached in DGA by creatures "hard to deal with" or equipped and by enchantment.
1) CoP is the best, no wonder, but it is a very very situational card and requires a tutor board
2) Or/and you could use/test some of the aforementioned creatures and especially phyrexian crusader as it could be very handy in other matchups.
Not to mention that playing PCrusader MD will improve your G1 while your opponent has not sided in "smash".
A Jitte-equipped PCrusader is usually game-over.
I would not underestimate the power of being able to start G3 vs a burn player as a T4 on your side -> jitte + equip + combat should put you ahead.
Something i like the the hawk is how great it is against terminus :P
However I wouldnd play the deck without bob or liliana tbh.
Just got myself a foil version of Worship now for the burn matchup :P
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