[Deck] The Rock

[damionblackgear]

This is all terrible advice. Going in order

I've read your response and I don't know if you've read the post that I responded to asking for thoughts on their list or actually read my post for content instead of skimming. If you did read for content, I think you may have jumped to some conclusions. I'll try to give a little more clarity into what I was implying and give you a little different perspective.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion regarding my previous post of offerings to another person's list. If you have further concerns feel free to PM me. I do respond back.

I'd also like to offer you the chance to give some intended to be helpful comments to the person who actually asked for it as you clearly have a bit of time to spare so that we could know your opinion of my suggestions. He's at the bottom of the last page

1) Library is good and I'm not arguing that. If you happened to noticed, (s)he already has a chains in the board. A single chains. Chains is a fine card when utilized correctly, which can be difficult, but gets better when you have a second. It improves again if you have a way to force its ability on the opponent. I don't use Chains because I don't find a need for it and believe its role in my 75 can be accomplished using other tools. My 75 wasn't the one being looked at though.

2) "Sensei's Divining Top ≠ Sylvan Library." I still haven't said that in this thread. They aren't. I said "ability" and wasn't referencing these two. Perhaps I should better define that out as it's most likely being misinterpreted. -- You'll want both the ability to filter your draws as harass your opponent with Chains.

On the top vs library remark, you can go back a couple pages and take a look at their comparisons made during the discussion of which should be used. People seemed to believe that they were similar but not equal (which I also agree with) and favored the Library (which I do not for some lists). As for which is better, that should still be left as a taboo subject as each option has its time. Chains gives a time when top is typically better and that is why I suggested it.

3) I'll address your comments on Mikokoro in the next section.

I know this will sound offensive but... Do you know what Chains does? Do you know what 2 Chains do (outside of rap)? A third copy is redundant but the overall effect does change when going from 1 to 2 as the ability changes if you're able to discard a card.

If (s)he ever got 2 chains (using the current list this would be just as likely as getting Chains + Library in play) all draw effects turn into "Discard, Discard, Draw", "Discard, Mill, be sad", or "Mill, be sad". The quick easy understanding is that one Chain stops extra draws (they lose one for each they gain) while 2 Chains forces extra draws to be discard and potentially stops extra draws all together. Not redundant. This does change if they have a replacement effect for the draw.

You were correct though in mentioning that chains can be played around. To actually play around it involves not casting draw spells or only casting the ones that are actual draws and not filters then weighing the value of the other cards in your hand. Cards like brainstorm can be considered to be gone already and until they find an answer. They basically play pretending to be short on cards until they find an answer.

As for your other argument, I don't expect chains to win the game or deal damage. I hope no one would unless you stick it turn 2 vs Solidarity (Hightide) or Solitare (enchantress) or have Megrim in play... which I would advise against unless you rebuild from scratch. I would also expect it to do more vs a control deck than a combo deck as you'll have more time to have it stop Brainstorms and Jace activation than hoping that they don't have the tools to go off already.

4) Yes, but (s)he's running 4 wastelands in a 22-land list which I feel is too many for a Knight list (especially with a Loam). As such, it wouldn't be hurting the manabase at all if (s)he replaces a Wasteland with Mikokoro. In fact, it's a pseudo improvement to the manabase as it's a land that isn't planning on killing itself.

Additionally, it synergizes with at least 4 cards from the board and couples nicely with any discard in the main. It's a misconception that your opponent will always be able to cast the cards they get. Sometimes they can't do a thing with the card. Unless you're in dire need of a card, drawing and having access to a card first should be better for you than them.

Other reasons I suggested it
- Liliana's +1 is worse when they're hellbent and you're not.
- Thoughtseize/Hymn aren't as good when the opponent is hellbent and you have nothing to do with it.
- Brainstorm allows them to hide 2 cards from discard.
- (S)he doesn't have to activate Mikokoro.
- Can draw extra cards to get you past dry spots when without Bob/Library.
- Loam can be saved via instant speed draw.

Don't write a card off until you try it and actually give it an objective chance.

5) Loam is good... but not on it's own. You want to hit lands. You want to have things to do with those lands (build manabase, thin deck, waste, or other utility). Additionally milling 3 isn't the biggest threat but without a stronghold, there's no way to guarantee that you won't mill your entire threat pool. However low a percentage, that possibility still exists.

Some exiting thoughts -
- Using Loam + Chains would allow for some really interesting synergies that I hadn't considered. Such as discarding Loam to dredge it for the draw from Chains (dredging that doesn't allow for instant speed removal).

[iamajellydonut]

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion regarding my previous post of offerings to another person's list. If you have further concerns feel free to PM me. I do respond back.

I'd also like to offer you the chance to give some intended to be helpful comments to the person who actually asked for it as you clearly have a bit of time to spare so that we could know your opinion of my suggestions. He's at the bottom of the last page

I'm not entirely sure why you want to take this to PMs. Just because I sneer and hold your views with contempt does not mean I have any issue with you as a person. I just think that your ideas are silly and foolish. I read your post thoroughly. I looked at his list a bit less thoroughly because to be honest it's just jammed goodstuff in a BGW shell. I replied. And my reply still speaks as intended with no changes. Including any "helpful comments" for him. Considering that the Junk shell is very loosely defined and that there is a (dated) primer and over six thousand posts from which to glean information, no, I do not feel like re-typing a decade's worth of information for him. If he had a specific question, I would love to answer it if I had a good answer. But "how's my deck" isn't really a tantalizing question and the answer wouldn't actually give them any information they don't already have at their disposal. What I will do is clear up misinformation.

The goal of Chains is to corner them out of options. If you cast a Chains of Mephistopheles, they look at their hand of Brainstorms and Ponders and Probes and cringe. That's the beginning and the end of the goal. So, what do you achieve if you cast two Chains of Mephistopheles? Sure, ordinarily they can cast Ponder in a pinch and take a hit in order to filter their hand some, but that's as close to "good" as anything in their hand as far as draw is going to get beyond keeping it in storage till they find removal for Chains of Mephistopheles. So, again, what's that second Chains of Mephistopheles doing? If I have a Chains of Mephistopheles already on the board, the last card I'm hoping to see beyond land is another Chains. At that point, you have the way paved already and are looking to develop the board for an advantage they cannot come back from. Drop a Goyf. Drop a Confidant. Go to town with a Stoneforge Mystic. If you drop a second Chains of Mephistopheles, you're only defeating the purpose of the first it and setting yourself behind. You're not a prison deck. You run all those overly efficient creatures and Sylvan Library for a reason.

Hypothetical mumbo jumbo of control this or aggro that, or even mana cost this or mana cost that, the fact of the practical matter is that people are scared of Sylvan Library. Justifiably. Against any deck where life can be used as a resource, Sylvan Library stands head and shoulders above the competition. The ability to Ancestral Recall without breaking a sweat while still having a Mirri's Guile makes it arguably the best card in any 75 against Miracles and a fair number of other match-ups. By sharp contrast, nobody cares if you have a Sensei's Divining Top. Good? Yes, but at the end it boils down to a mana intensive and Revokerable Mirri's Guile that nobody really cares about.

[tescrin]

@jelly
Opinion wise, I'm mostly with Jelly, but there are some things to mention:
1&2: Top and Library both do well. No need to derail the thread over it like a few pages ago. No one cares about Brainstorm either; but it's better than Library a lot of the time.
3: Chains stack. It's Christmas land to get multiples and have it matter, but they do stack. In fact Damion seems to think the third copy doesn't stack; but it very much does.

Top is quite preferable when you have Loam in the deck. It keeps Loam safe from DRS or other non-Extirpates.

@damion
4: Volrath's is weak. I've tried it and it's not only excruciatingly slow but it's ineffective against the most grindy decks, either because they'll waste it/eat it or because none of your creatures hit the yard. It's better to just dig/have a better deck.

Mikokoro is bad. There's no other way to put it. The christmas land where you have Chains (let alone multiple), a way to abuse Mikokoro with it (Loam for instance) and Miko/active KotR is so slim that I don't believe it's worth it. If you want a lock like that Words of Waste combos with Top or simply a funeral Charm next to Snapcaster can get you several timewalks. Not this deck though.

5: Loam's pretty good by itself. I mean yeah, you need something in your grave, but between fetches, wastes, and dredges it shouldn't be too bad. Most lists include a Lingering Souls or 3 anyway and I can attest that dredging into Souls is awesome.

I should mention that Dredge is a replacement effect and you can't eat a Loam if they're dredging it.





On my own experience this weekend (2-2); a local DGA player (Cody Lingelbach) beat me up pretty good and it got me questioning all kinds of things. My musings..:
-Maindeck Thalia kinda sucks. She's being removed for the Lingering souls again.
-I'm still terrible with SFM and it's really hard to keep her in the deck at this point. It's hard to tell whether the wins she gets are confirmation bias or if they would've been wins anyway. Still, I'll give her some more time before I start shredding my list.
-Didn't see wastelands hardly at all (1 jund game) and it cost me 2 matches. Had an issue with mulligans and land screw; adding the 4th waste should help both of these things.
-Had a game where I had multiple equips stuck in my hand. I'm thinking of going 2-2 on the SFM package.
-I missed my hymns after getting hit by one from Jund.
-Playing against DGA makes me want to try Tidehollow Scullers again..
-Playing against DGA makes me want to use Zealous Persecutions..
-Lily had no air time this week either. Had a pair against a goofy Delver deck (Delver-still brew) but that's hardly good when that's the removal you draw :s.

This is what I'll be trying this week (as I've been happy before with a 2x SFM)
Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


The list is -1 threat, -1 Equip, but I can see why people used to not run SoFaI and why you still wouldn't if you have Souls. Souls + anything race fine and SoFaI is incredibly clunky. I think it'll make my sideboard because it's a wicked clock and draw engine; but that's still a maybe. Maybe I'll shave a discard back off for it (finally grabbed my other 2 thoughtseize and decided to try a 3/3 split) or try 3 SFM again.

I will say I've been playing SFM before Bob (often trying to draw out removal) but it was finally pointed out to me I was being a garbage. Were I to stop garbaging maybe I'd have better luck with SFM. That said, she single handedly beat Merfolk for me; which is always nice.


(Of course thoughts are appreciated!)

[iamajellydonut]

-Maindeck Thalia kinda sucks. She's being removed for the Lingering souls again.
-I'm still terrible with SFM and it's really hard to keep her in the deck at this point. It's hard to tell whether the wins she gets are confirmation bias or if they would've been wins anyway. Still, I'll give her some more time before I start shredding my list.

Agreed on both counts.

I made a post a while back about Thalia and promptly deleted it because I realized it didn't really fit in with the current discussion, but it was basically to the effect that every time I try to include Thalia in a Junk-esque build, it inevitably ends up looking like Dark Maverick and ending badly. It's a great card, but it's not as one-sided as it needs to be and doesn't play well with others.

As far as Stoneforge Mystic, I don't really like near-full sets of her outside of blue variants simply because you do get stuck with those hands full of equipment or see all three Stoneforges at once when you really need zero. I love 2/2 though and feel it's the perfect amount. At 2x, worst case becomes you get a bit of card advantage, and best case you still get that Jitte or Batterskull online.

[maharis]

Abzan Ascendancy:



Maybe as a one-of in the right build. Though it doesn't trigger off your Souls tokens, it still juices them. Helps win Goyf wars, makes DRS/SFM into combat threats, and gives you an equipment carrier if they die. A 3/2 Bob is also a beautiful thing.

Again, you aren't going to just jam this off your DRS turn 2, but I definitely see it as a relevant card in grindier creature matchups.

[tescrin]

Abzan Ascendancy:

Problems:
-It doesn't do anything on it's own
-It does nothing against Plow or Terminus
-It does nothing against counterspells

it goes the way of all enchantments/gods like it: Casual, possibly standard.
I'd probably use Athreos, God of Passage first; but it has all of the same problems minus that it's unable to be removed.

[Megadeus]

It's sad because the first ability synergizes so well with tokens, but the second ability doesn't

[iamajellydonut]

It's sad because the first ability synergizes so well with tokens, but the second ability doesn't

Its first ability is a bad Glorious Anthem.

[Megadeus]

Fair. Still though. Maybe I'll build around it in modern

[mini1337s]

Playable?

[iamajellydonut]

It doesn't really have relevant application other than being a Doran variant. Hosing specifically creatures doesn't do very much.

[Warden]

None of these new cards look appealing.

On another note, Athreos, God of Passage is interesting. Was that ever any good for anybody? I'd LOVE to go deadguy-ish rock + drs/decays with the BW god.

[iamajellydonut]

On another note, Athreos, God of Passage is interesting. Was that ever any good for anybody? I'd LOVE to go deadguy-ish rock + drs/decays with the BW god.

It takes two relevant creatures (not discarded, exiled, countered, bottomed) for Athreos to be better than something like Death's Duet, and even then it provides an element of choice. So, no.

[damionblackgear]

Wanted to clear up a couple things... that's getting to be the only reason I post anymore.

I never said Volrath was a good card in my previous post. I presented a possibility and offered the card as it is the only way to ensure a way out of it.

I'm also aware that dredge is a replacement effect. My point was that chains doesn't provide an opportunity to respond between its discard and draw. Those would be Loam's discard and dredge via chains. You will have things that trigger but you can't get it out it out of the yard with an ability or spell until the Chains resolves with you dredging Loam.

That unmolested Dredge is something that's not available at any other point in a turn. The only draw that doesn't use the stack is in your draw phase (first thing you do) which requires them to pass priority from the upkeep (where they can respond). Other draws result from spells and abilities which all use the stack (can be reacted to in some way).

Mikokoro Is something I offered as I'm having success with it. It seems to be more a belief on what should and shouldn't be played that's stopped the trying of it. I learned a long time ago that THE LIST should only be used as a guide, not a rule. That's fine though. We all have different results.

-----

I've PM'd you (jelly). If you have further personal issue, please consult me there or not at all. Leave this thread for the deck.

[sdematt]

Basically, I want a playable creature in our colours. Seriously...

Like, would you play this?

Not Awful Creature - 1BWG (Yes, 4 mana...)

3/4, Trample

When NAC comes into play, lose 3 life and choose one of the following:

-Thoughtseize
-STP
-Vindicate

I think that would be playable. Maybe it's too fair, but whatever. I wouldn't mind also seeing a BWG planeswalker:

Something Something, Reveler of the Decay - 1BWG (BWG would be too broken)

Each creature with toughness greater than its power may deal damage to opposing creatures using its toughness instead of its power.

During your upkeep, put a 1/1 flying white spirit into play.

3 Starting Loyalty

+1: You draw a card, lose one life, then each player discards a card.
-3: Choose target nonland-permanent. That player sacrifices that permanent.
-6: Return all creatures from all graveyards to the battlefield under your control. They each gain deathtouch and the ability "1T: This creature fights another target creature"

I just wished Wizards would decide to print something well costed in Legacy that isn't blue. Le sigh.


-Matt

[sdematt]

After shooting the shit, the planeswalker is way too OP. Disregard.


Let's get back on track with things that matter. Like why the new instant speed Vindicate still isn't good enough.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

Let's get back on track with things that matter. Like why the new instant speed Vindicate still isn't good enough.

Because it costs more than Abrupt Decay?

[sdematt]

Because it costs more than Abrupt Decay?

But it would hit Jace. The fact it doesn't hit lands is a bummer.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

But it would hit Jace.

And costs more than any card in the deck. Honestly, I think that even if it did hit land it wouldn't be played. We don't need it, and four is far too high of a number.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'm curious as to whether any lists have considered returning to Tidehollow Sculler. I've always felt he was an undervalued creature who usually manages to eat a piece of removal from one of your other threats. Maybe he's seen less play because adding him can force us into a Deadguy shell which focuses on small creatures + equipment to win?

I've been trying to get back into competitive Legacy for some time now as I went on hiatus following my return to school (and the completion thereof) as well as moving to Minneapolis, changing jobs, etc. As SCG will be coming to Minneapolis I've been working to modify my Rock and adapt it to the prevalent meta (although deep down in my sole the balls to the wall MTG player in me yearns to play Dragon Stompy which I still feel would be somewhat solid as long as I ran the artifact shell).

For reference here's my list:


4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

Sideboard

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / Manriki Gusari
2 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace

Overall my list doesn't look to do anything too outlandish. A rather standard list besides my Tutor SB which I felt would be a safety net when I went to my first competitive Legacy event a month or two ago (40+ people). I'm unsure as to whether I want to keep GSZ anymore. It's benefits are quite obvious but I've developed more and more the opinion that at least as far as the lists I've developed goes, it doesn't do nearly enough for me. It can certainly give me the random T1 Acceleration via Arbor or fetch me a utility creature/beater, but I often wonder if perhaps I wouldn't be better off with something that has more of an impact.

I've also been wondering if perhaps our deck may want to consider returning to a more explosive start via Mox Diamond. Our deck has always been strong because we pack a lot of gas and use early disruption to accelerate into heavy beaters. Although we're in no position to competitively return to Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore, we also can have difficulty against midrange/late game decks like BUG or Miracles whereas we can easily rip apart combo decks if we cast our disruption early.

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate path for our deck to take, but as I've gone to the limits with self debate I've been trying to consider ways to change our builds to make them more effective. I still haven't quite found the niche list that will make me comfortable playing it. All the way to my SuiBlack days I've always been a black player who preferred aggression to attrition. I had been running Deadguy builds which featured Bob/Top/Tombstalker/Nighthawk with Goyf splash. I went back to Rock as I felt like perhaps I was loosing some utility offered with a more heavy green adaptation.

I'm just trying to bounce some ideas around as I'd really like to be prepared for SCG Minneapolis but I'm unsure as to what variant I even want, let alone strategies.

Forlorn