[Deck] Death and Taxes

[hill_giant]

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

I've cast many, many Cataclysms, and only once have I ever lost a game after resolving one (although I came pretty close recently when I had an opponent keep plains/top/angel/keranos). My local meta is a bit heavy on miracles (and my old one had a lands player and a twelvepost player), but I have a hard time believing it's right to leave them out of your board. I've also stolen a ton of otherwise unwinnable games from elves with them (including the decisive game in a win-and-in at an open). It's hard for me to say exactly how good it is against stoneblade, since it gets thoughtseized or countered every time I draw it, but it seems solid there too. It's pretty great against any deck that wants more than 3 lands in play ever.

[jake556]

Forgottenforce (Jamie) is currently 7-0 and going to draw into the top 8 at SCG St Louis! Another Top 8!

[Barbed Blightning]

Today was a good day for D&T, definitely! Hopefully we'll get to hear from our victors sometime soon.

[Barook]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

[Bahra]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

Circle of Protection: Red is sick. I have 2x Enlightened Tutor and 1x Circle of Protection: Red to bring in against burn and if I draw any of those I just win, they can't deal you damage anymore, only kill your guys and eventually you just jam batterskull.

Cataclysm is certainly not magical christmas land against miracles, it's very common that games go 10+ turns and then it's easy to cast it in a 23 land deck, and you don't need a favorable board position even though you'll have it most of the time, considering that Miracles doesn't really play any creatures.

[Barbed Blightning]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

CoP has its ups and downs, like Warmth. I prefer it because it allows you to negate the attackers and stuff like Vortex and gives you one more thing to help against Progenitus. However, Warmth may be the more practical card, since you can "set it and forget it," while CoP forces you to play very reactive. I think it helps you more if you draw it late, though.

That's basically what I am getting at with Cataclysm as well. If they have something like Keranos out, Cat's just a shitty way of asking them to punish you.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Forgottenforce (Jamie) is currently 7-0 and going to draw into the top 8 at SCG St Louis! Another Top 8!

Was he the guy that attacked with his Jitte-Avenger into Avenger and Mother of Runes?^^

[DudeItsCorey]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

Also, just a side note: I would really love to find a place for Gaddock Teeg in this deck. Although, adding green lands would mess with the mana base and vial I don't think is reliable enough for us to be able to cheat him in. Just a thought as he seems to be a perfect fit for this deck.

[Bahra]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

Also, just a side note: I would really love to find a place for Gaddock Teeg in this deck. Although, adding green lands would mess with the mana base and vial I don't think is reliable enough for us to be able to cheat him in. Just a thought as he seems to be a perfect fit for this deck.

Pithing Needle takes care of Sensei's Divining Top and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Pithing Needle can't die to Terminus or Swords to Plowshares. It's a fantastic card against miracles.

You won't be able to fit Gaddock Teeg in the deck, splashing for colors in this mana base is not a viable thing to be doing.

[from Cairo]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

It is mostly for Miracles/Sensei's Divining Top. But to answer your 2nd question about lands that it addresses that Revoker can't hit, Pithing Needle plays a strong role in agroing 39-43 Lands shutting off Maze of Ith. If one can also Rest in Peace the Punishing Fire engine, the post board games become quite winnable.

[Barook]

I've seen Bahra play use EE @1 against Elves multiple times with Lands yesterday. I wonder how it would fare in D&T since it comes online a full turn faster vs. Elves compared to Ratchet Bomb. And that's alot in this match-up.

On a different note: How does Orzhov Pontiff interact with Flickerwisp? Am I correct that I can play Pontiff, -1/-1 the opposing creatures, then flicker it and give them another -1/-1 EoT, resulting in a -2/-2 total?

[Barbed Blightning]

I've seen Bahra play use EE @1 against Elves multiple times with Lands yesterday. I wonder how it would fare in D&T since it comes online a full turn faster vs. Elves compared to Ratchet Bomb. And that's alot in this match-up.

On a different note: How does Orzhov Pontiff interact with Flickerwisp? Am I correct that I can play Pontiff, -1/-1 the opposing creatures, then flicker it and give them another -1/-1 EoT, resulting in a -2/-2 total?

EE seems OK, my concern is keeping the mana open. But it does give that slight advantage of speed...

Yes indeed. Pontiff is a card that I would consider if I played Deadguy & Taxes.

EDIT: No, wait, duh. It doesn't work that way; like Flickerwisp, the effect is removed until the beginning of the next end step. It'll nauseate your opponent's creatures until the end of your turn, however. :)

Or at least I think I'm correct....

[Barook]

EDIT: No, wait, duh. It doesn't work that way; like Flickerwisp, the effect is removed until the beginning of the next end step. It'll nauseate your opponent's creatures until the end of your turn, however. :)

Or at least I think I'm correct....

What? Pontiff's CiP isn't an EoT trigger, it goes "until end of turn", which means the effects should both end in the clean-up step.

If I'm not mistaken, it should work like this:

Main Phase: Pontiff, -1/-1, Flickerwisp, exile Pontiff
EoT: Pontiff returns, -1/-1
Clean-up: Creatures return to normal.

[Barbed Blightning]

What? Pontiff's CiP isn't an EoT trigger, it goes "until end of turn", which means the effects should both end in the clean-up step.

If I'm not mistaken, it should work like this:

Main Phase: Pontiff, -1/-1, Flickerwisp, exile Pontiff
EoT: Pontiff returns, -1/-1
Clean-up: Creatures return to normal.

That was my original assumption; for a brief moment, opposing creatures would get -2/-2. That's probably correct.

[movingtonewao]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?

[Barbed Blightning]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?

I believe it goes as such:

1) Pontiff's ETB
2) Cast Wisp, ETB targets Pontiff
3) At the beginning of the End step, Pontiff returns, new ETB stacks with the old one
4) Upon the Cleanup step following afterwards, the -2/-2 effect is removed.

Now that I have outlined it, it makes more sense to me. Pontiff's ability and Wisp's ability are completely different; the latter does not care about Cleanup.

[Rizso]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?

Its actually pretty simple: Reading the wisp text says:
"When Flickerwisp enters the battlefield, exile another target permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.", End step is the last phase of each turn, probly knows this. Creatures still has -1/-1 effects lingering on them at this point. Its not until The cleanup step damage and other until end of turn effects end.

[Penguinizer]

Hey, I need a bit of advice. I just heard that there's a big Legacy tourney on this Sunday. I haven't played Death and Taxes in a while since I've been lazy. Is my build horrifically out of date/lacking? It was fairly standard back when I last played/modified it.

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle
7x Plains

Creatures:29
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos


Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Fiend Hunter
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Labyrinth Spirit

Ok, so I'm over 2-3 cards, I have no idea why. What should I cut? The only thing I can think of is Labyrinth Spirit so I can stick Sword of Light and Shadow in the SB.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey, I need a bit of advice. I just heard that there's a big Legacy tourney on this Sunday. I haven't played Death and Taxes in a while since I've been lazy. Is my build horrifically out of date/lacking? It was fairly standard back when I last played/modified it.

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle
7x Plains

Creatures:29
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos


Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Fiend Hunter
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Labyrinth Spirit

Ok, so I'm over 2-3 cards, I have no idea why. What should I cut? The only thing I can think of is Labyrinth Spirit so I can stick Sword of Light and Shadow in the SB.

I'd cut Spirit completely. It's always been lackluster for me and it is easy to remove to boot.

I'd go back up to four copies on Revoker and Port in the main. They are too good to shave. Also, more basics.

I'd cut Brimaz for Mirran Crusader (more relevant threat against BGx) and go down to copies of Mangara.

In short, I would play this modified list:

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
11x Plains

Creatures: 26
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Cataclysm
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
3x Flex for meta

[cursecatcher]

I haven't liked Spirit of the Labyrinth very much in my experience with it either, but if Treasure Cruise becomes a commonly played card moving forward, the Spirit might gain a lot of potency?