[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[iostream]

At least Sturtzilla and I agree that Hymn is generally better than Stifle in our local meta across the board. However, I think playing a more draw-go list with stifle might be better in the general meta we have at the moment since Miracles and Shardless BUG are seeing more and more play.

I'm not a master of this deck by any stretch, but I don't know why we have to choose between Stifle and Hymn - I was happy to run both.

I think there is too much emphasis on the fetchland-Stifle interaction (which indeed is usually only relevant in the first two or so turns). The utility of Stifling random things later in the game is undervalued. Cascade triggers, Craterhoof triggers, Miracle triggers, Stoneforge Mystic triggers... these are all relevant in the midgame and lategame, and so holding one in hand after tapping out for Deathrite or Hymn is not inherently a problem. In addition, they can sometimes even synergize. Some games you get to turn 1 Stifle a fetchland and then Hymn the rest of the lands in their hand away, similar to the Wasteland/Hymn line that is the trademark of this deck.

I view having the choice of leaving open mana or tapping out in the early game to be an interesting strategic option that allows you to maximize the impact of your opening hand given your knowledge of your opponent's deck. It does not seem to me to be the mark of a "confused" or "antisynergistic" deck design like is sometimes said. For example, jamming a turn 1 Delver on the play and hoping for a blind flip is a weak play against certain decks that the Stifle-less versions nevertheless have to do some reasonable percentage of the time. Having the option to hold Stifle up instead gives you another potential line.

As for TNN, I think he is fine - the deck really likes having evasive threats like Deathrite and Delver - but I would not play him with fewer than 20 land.

[btm10]

However, I think playing a more draw-go list with stifle might be better in the general meta we have at the moment since Miracles and Shardless BUG are seeing more and more play. I do not think that these matchups are extremely bad when playing the tapout hymn versions but Stifle does give us more tools to fight the ways these decks try to go over the top of BUG Delver. I think this style of BUG Delver warrants some more testing as others have said. Specifically, I don't think the lists that are being played at the moment are as tuned as they should be. For example I talked to Jim Davis about CroSS.24's list and he said he doesn't like True-Name...

I'm on the fence about True-Name, too. I think it's not supportable at 1UU like Sturtzilla pointed out, though I'd confine that statement to the more conventional lists that run 1-2 Bayou and 1-2 Trops, whereas Wiley's more RUG-like list is fine supporting the double blue off of 3 Trop, 3 Sea, even though it's otherwise a little land light for a 3 mana spell. At 20 lands, it's probably fine. That being said, he won our game 2 last night 100% on the back of double TNN because we ended up in a Tarmogoyf standoff and he drew the second TNN before I hit my Charms. It's just one example, but it bears mention when we're all talking about how we think it's suboptimal.

[kaminamina]

inb4 "Can the new khans card be good in BUG delver?"

So before any misguided souls bring it up, no, the synergy with DRS and Tombstalker do not make this playable.

[Sturtzilla]

inb4 "Can the new khans card be good in BUG delver?"

So before any misguided souls bring it up, no, the synergy with DRS and Tombstalker do not make this playable.

While there is synergy, it is slow and grindy. This new cat demon does dodge Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt; however, I would wager that it is too slow in just about every match up. A converted mana cost of 5 is too high for a 4 power dude even if there is a slight upside. Still hoping that they print us something playable...

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Be a good card for EDH for sure.

[Thorhammer]

Question for everybody. I have been experimenting with the 19 land build. So far I haven't noticed any difference. But I wanted to ask what land to cut. Is the answer just an underground sea? Or can we cut a fetch land and go down to just eight. I am wary of cutting actual mana producing land since it plays right into RUG's game.

Also, is running Jace in a 19 land build just out of the question?

[ESG]

Question for everybody. I have been experimenting with the 19 land build. So far I haven't noticed any difference. But I wanted to ask what land to cut. Is the answer just an underground sea? Or can we cut a fetch land and go down to just eight. I am wary of cutting actual mana producing land since it plays right into RUG's game.

Cut either a fetch or a Bayou. If you're strongly committed to BB for Hymn, Tombstalker, or Liliana, then I recommend not cutting the second Bayou.

Also, is running Jace in a 19 land build just out of the question?

Yes. If you're cutting lands, it makes no sense to be running a four-drop. Jace is a great card, but he doesn't fit the tempo plan. If you want to play Jace, play Shardless or a dedicated control deck. The only way I could see Jace in this deck is in the sideboard for non-combo, non-Wasteland matchups (which I guess is just Miracles).

[YamiJoey]

A friend of mine play Jace Beleren for that. Giving them a card every few turns doesn't matter as much when you've already drawn 2, and sometimes you can just draw 3 and let it die. I am also boarding it, but I've not played with the deck for a while. Walkers are a pain for us to deal with, and Beleren does everything you need.

[Esper3k]

Question for everybody. I have been experimenting with the 19 land build. So far I haven't noticed any difference. But I wanted to ask what land to cut. Is the answer just an underground sea? Or can we cut a fetch land and go down to just eight. I am wary of cutting actual mana producing land since it plays right into RUG's game.

Also, is running Jace in a 19 land build just out of the question?

I cut the 9th fetch and played a Sylvan Library in the spot of the 20th land.

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,
I played a 32 man turney yesterday in Nuerenberg and went 3:2.
After playing 2 Toxic Deluge & 3 Spell Pierce in the SB I was more focused on beating Miracles so I decided to cut 1 Deluge, 1 Null Rod & 2 Pierce for a Sylvan Library, 1 Pithing Needle & 2 Envelop, but I played never against it

A short report and my current thoughts.

Round 1: Junk (Won 2:1)
Round 2: Dragon Stompy ( Won 2:0)
Round 3: Death & Taxes against my Team mate (Lost 1:2)
Round 4: Death & Taxes (Lost 1:2)
Round 5: Burn (Won 2 : 1)

My Sideboard was :
2 Envelop
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

MD was the solid standard list.

Final thoughts:
- 2 Toxic Deluge are a must! (It would definitly won me all the DnT MU!) Golgari Charm on its own is not enough because we die to Avenger, SFM & Mirran Crusader.

- Definitly side out all 2 Liliana against DnT ( Its just too expensive especially with Thalia, Ports & Wastes + they flood the board most of the time + WLL is very good against her)

- Play 3 Spell Pierce instead of 2 Envelop 1Pierce because Envelop is only good against Elves & Miracles, Pierce is just way more flexible. They sucked hard against Burn & Stompy.

- I think I will try out 2 Jace in the SB for Miracles & all the BGx MU's. With 20 lands & 4 Shaman he is supportable.

All in all it was a fun day and 2 of our Team made Top 8 (3rd & 5th) and I learned something for the future plus 3:2 is not thaaaaat bad especially if you play against DnT 2 times. ..

Greetings

[Requiem2]

Played in some locals last night and finished 3-1 and placed in the money. I played a pretty standard list and felt good about the match ups. Death and taxes and miracles are both 50/50 but felt my board gave me good answers to everything, drawing them is another story. My SB is still always changing and would love feedback. Below is a tournament report. It was written on my phone so I apologize in advance for grammatical and punctuation errors. Thanks for reading.

Land:
3x useas
2x bayou
2x trops
4x wastelands
3x polluted delta
3x misty
3x verdant

Creatures:
4x delver
4x drs
4x tarmo
2x stalkers

Spells:
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force
4x daze
4x decay
4x hymn
2x lily

SB:
2x spell pierce
2x golgari charm
1x null rod
1x pithing needle
1x sylvan library
1x vendilion clique
2x disfigure
1x diabolic edict
1x toxic deluge
1x thoughtsieze
1x Krosan grip
1x Jace, the mind scultor


R1 D&T. Result 1-2
G1 I ride delvers to victory. G2 he plays 2 vials early and strains my mana and does his thing. G3 was very close with both my golgari charms doing work, it ended with him with Serra avenger on board me with tarmo, he plays an eot aven, beats for 6. I play a second tarmo, he plays eot flicker and the race is close but he gets me in the air as he just needs to chump one of the tarmos to stay alive.

R2 Miracles. Result 2-0
G1 he is on the play he plays a volcanic and passes I play delver and he goes for an eot brainstorm, I daze, he forces back. I consider forcing, but am happy he forced my daze and let the brainstorm resolve. I beat with delver, he plays a land passes back. I play a hymn and he is now at 1 or 2 cards in hand and no top. He plays his terminus on t3, I proceed to force. I play a deathrite and pass turn back, holding back the tarmo in hand. A few turns later he plays terminus and clears the delver and deathrite. I follow up with tarmo and he can't find an answer in time. G2 he plays ponder and passes turn, I play t1 drs. He t2 terminus my drs and follows up with a top. I play a null rod he draws with top, he plays draw go for a bit. Drs gets in for 4-6 dmg before it gets answered. I build up a hand of lily, tarmo, stalker and land. I play lily and discard the land, the next turn I play tarmo which beats for a few turns. He plays a revoker at some point and I play a needle. I named flooded strand, and wasted him, in hindsight I really should have named jace, but he was at 3 mana with pressure on him. Once he answered the tarmo, my stalker hit the board he gg'd. Lily won me that game.

R3 oops all spells. Result 2-1
G1 he did his thing and went off turn 2. G2 I keep a good hand (delta,delver,hymn,fow,fow,BS,daze). T1 play my delver and pass the turn, he plays another probe, probe, mox and petal into 3x morphous into cabal ritual, his GY at 6 (Nervous about cabal therapy). I proceed to let that resolve, so he plays another cabal therapy since he has thresh, I force it and he passes the turn. I transform the delver with brainstorm, draw 2 lands and tarmo (fow off). I put a land force back, reveal force and fetch and cast hymn. He can't recover from here and delver and tarmo beats take me to g3. G3 is very similar I draw well and get force+daze and hymn and delver beats get me there.

R4 Mono red planes walkers and Rabble. Result 2-0
G1 he plays land and passes, I play a t1 drs, he eot bolts it. Land go, then I play tarmo. T3 I hymn hitting a planeswalker and a grim monolith. Tarmo beats in for 5. He plays something at some point that I force but tarmo gets me there fast. G2 a little nervous about an early bloodmoon but decide to keep what I thought was a risky hand (verdant,drs,drs,tarmo,disfigure,hymn,ponder). He plays land go, I decide to play drs(considered ponder to find force,dazed sided out) and pass turn. He plays a land and passes back. I draw a land play a hymn and hit land and Chandra, I ponder and find force. He draws and play bloodmoon and I consider force. I let it resolve because of drs and the 2 lands left in the grave, also I sided out everything double black except the remaining 3 hymns. I follow up next turn with a tarmo and pass. He is ramped quite a bit at this point and goes for a rabble, it resolves, he goes for another and it meets force. He gets a little bummed out as he later reveals playing both was greedy as he could have used pyro blast to protect the rabble if he waited. I proceed to swing with tarmo and he takes 4. I then eat the last land in the grave and disfigure his rabble. Tarmo and drs beats get me there threw his future magus of the moon and Simian spirit guide chump blockers he plays.

[btm10]

I cut the 9th fetch and played a Sylvan Library in the spot of the 20th land.

Same. Sylvan Library is insane. Don't know why it isn't more widely run.

[Thorhammer]

Same. Sylvan Library is insane. Don't know why it isn't more widely run.

Agreed. Sylvan is definitly getting the nod. I feel like 19 lands is enough with deathrite. Rug can't afford to take a turn wastelanding us when we are clocking them and have a mana dork already. And I feel like I've been flooded more times than I've been screwed.

[Requiem2]

Scg St. Louis had 2 bug delver lists in the top 10. Both lists ran 2 Dark Confidants shall we discuss?

[zerzab11]

Always when i want a short break from my beloved Miracles i play this beauty:

//Mainboard:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sylvan Library

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland


// Sideboard :
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Stifle
1 Liliana of the Veil

I strongly believe this deck is the (second ) best deck in the meta at the moment.

I played the same 32 - ppl- tournament as Manipulato above on Saturday and managed to take it down with this deck... MU's:

GW/Maverick 2:0
Elves 2:0
Death and Taxes 2:0
Burn 2:1
Elves 2:0 (I.D. played out)

@Jacediscussion: I don't see Jace as a nonplayable card in this deck, one reason, because for me Team America is more of a midrange deck, like Eva Green with cantrips and counters. Of course the deck CAN have tempo draws like double Delver, Deathrite + Waste, threat followed by double hymn.... But the reason the deck is so strong is that it can be both a tempo deck with e.g. nutdraws, AND a midrange deck with mid - and lategame power thanks to Jace and Library.
With Library and Jace in the Maindeck and 9 Cantrips (not counting Library here) the Control MU's, especially Miracles get much better. I think with the list above the MU might be slightly favorable preboard, when playing against a stock Miracle list, and a player with the same skill.
As Canadian has nearly disappeared, I see no MU where we should be missing the 20th land. Preordain might seem somewhat sketchy, but it gives the deck even more consistency and can be counted as a split between the 20th land and a Spell.
In so many grindy MU's youre gonna face during a tournament Jace is MVP. There is no other card for 4 Mana in this deck that changes a game so much when in enters play. I can't imagine this new 4/4 for 5 Mana is even considered, when you can play a much broader and better card like Jace. When you're resolving him against Miracles (which is quite constantly possible, believe me, I tested this MU a lot), the opponent is mostly on few handcards and low life, so you can just BS every turn, put a threat each turn and wait until he is out of removal/gas, whil disrupting further.
If you want to discuss this list further you can PM me too, as I don't want to derail the discussion in this thread too much.

With nearly the same list I'm now 15:1 in matches during the last 3 tournaments I played (counting the two I.D. that I played out and won). I don't say this because I'm so proud of myself, but because I think it's a solid record (while being my personal record also^^) and it might interested people show and tell ;), that this is definetly another valid approach to this archetype.

Best Greetings

Johannes Gutbrod

[cheerios]

Any tips for the elves matchup?

Cheers

[cheerios]

Any tips for the elves matchup?

Cheers

[Manipulato]

Always when i want a short break from my beloved Miracles i play this beauty:

//Mainboard:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sylvan Library

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland


// Sideboard :
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Stifle
1 Liliana of the Veil

I strongly believe this deck is the (second ) best deck in the meta at the moment.

I played the same 32 - ppl- tournament as Manipulato above on Saturday and managed to take it down with this deck... MU's:

GW/Maverick 2:0
Elves 2:0
Death and Taxes 2:0
Burn 2:1
Elves 2:0 (I.D. played out)

@Jacediscussion: I don't see Jace as a nonplayable card in this deck, one reason, because for me Team America is more of a midrange deck, like Eva Green with cantrips and counters. Of course the deck CAN have tempo draws like double Delver, Deathrite + Waste, threat followed by double hymn.... But the reason the deck is so strong is that it can be both a tempo deck with e.g. nutdraws, AND a midrange deck with mid - and lategame power thanks to Jace and Library.
With Library and Jace in the Maindeck and 9 Cantrips (not counting Library here) the Control MU's, especially Miracles get much better. I think with the list above the MU might be slightly favorable preboard, when playing against a stock Miracle list, and a player with the same skill.
As Canadian has nearly disappeared, I see no MU where we should be missing the 20th land. Preordain might seem somewhat sketchy, but it gives the deck even more consistency and can be counted as a split between the 20th land and a Spell.
In so many grindy MU's youre gonna face during a tournament Jace is MVP. There is no other card for 4 Mana in this deck that changes a game so much when in enters play. I can't imagine this new 4/4 for 5 Mana is even considered, when you can play a much broader and better card like Jace. When you're resolving him against Miracles (which is quite constantly possible, believe me, I tested this MU a lot), the opponent is mostly on few handcards and low life, so you can just BS every turn, put a threat each turn and wait until he is out of removal/gas, whil disrupting further.
If you want to discuss this list further you can PM me too, as I don't want to derail the discussion in this thread too much.

With nearly the same list I'm now 15:1 in matches during the last 3 tournaments I played (counting the two I.D. that I played out and won). I don't say this because I'm so proud of myself, but because I think it's a solid record (while being my personal record also^^) and it might interested people show and tell ;), that this is definetly another valid approach to this archetype.

Best Greetings

Johannes Gutbrod

Gratz to your finish Johannes! The foil version had more succes on that day like the altered one
My current record is 20:5 in 5 turneys with 5 rounds

I played RUG a couple of month and after playing 2-3 turneys with TA I will never look back! I had the same feelings/thoughts about the 2 roles of the deck like you. Playing with FoW, Daze & Pierce against unfair decks and Deluge, Jace, Liliana, Cliques & Sylvan against Midrange/Control/BGx decks is a thing which only TA can do! Im in love with the deck (exept for my wife )

A couple of MU's like Elves & DnT can be tough G1 but after boarding this deck has so much answers/options that everything is winnable or in our favor (Sure the skill level of the opponent is important too).

I'm not sure about the 1:1 Jace/Liliana split MD with 19 lands but a 2:2 split MD SB is a good call I think. I will not draw jim G1 against Elves, DnT or Tempo.
In my MU's the Jace MD would have been not so great.

I think my SB will look like this in the future

2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library

Greetings

[zerzab11]

Foil Versions always have the most success, that's why I'm playing them Your deck is truly beautiful, though!
I agree of Jace beim clunky in the faster MU's (where he get's boarded out obviously), but anyways I think he has earned a spot MD and is better than the alternatives (Lili, Land, TNN, whatever) for me.

@Elves MU: Preboard this is difficult MU. I try to race him all while disrupting. (Important Cards: Delver, Stalker, Hymn, Force)
Postboard it get's much better bringing in +2 Cage, +2 Disfigure, +2 Deluge, + 1 Charm, + 2 Cage, +1 Clique. Taking out -1 Jace, - 4 Daze, -2 Goyf, -1 Library, -1 Hymn, - 1 Decay. (Note: These are widely adjustable plans, for example, leaving in Dazes otP, might be correct against Players that will not play around it (because they might think you boarded it out)). Flyers are very important to pressure them as your groundattack can be easily dispatched wia Symbiote + Elf, Quirion + Arbor or whatever. I like hymn to as it can be very valuable, because Elves has much less key cards in this MU than other decks. It Forces them to overcommit into Deluge, too. I think this MU is slightly negative, but with right boarding and a good draw, it's definetly manageable. Hope that helps :)

[Barbed Blightning]

Well hello beautiful...