I'd take path since the decks you want it against, like delver, don't run basics, and you don't want more life loss against them with dismember.Originally Posted by Wilkin
I like the discussions going on over the past page or two.
How do you tweak this deck to face delver variants (mainly BUG, UR, and Patriot)?
I'm also expecting some amount of Miracles.
I lack ports (can't go DnT or Black and Taxes). I think Bob is just too solid to neglect right now.
Every time I make a list it never comes together the way I want. This is my rough sketch
4 Vial
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire/ice
1 Batterskull or Sword of x/y #2
/18 stuff
4 Mom
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serra Avenger ----> appears to be house against Delver and TNN
4 Flex
/18 guys
*Flex = DRS, Sculler, Thalia, KotR, Mirran, Hero, Brimaz, Lingering Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
18 additional lands
/23 lands
===
Only issue with Lingering Souls is that it gets hammered by delver in my experiences. They burn out the tokens + daze, or pierce the spell. 3cc is asking for a lot. If it lands, they aren't terribly strong against the opponent. If I go mom + DRS in the same deck, I have nothing but little guys. I can also see DRS > Mom, but I'm asking what's good to beat delvers and some miracles.
I have thought about going KotR as the only green thing in the deck because a) it's big and b) it synergizes well in Junk/Maverick style shells. Not opposed to going Mirran Crusader or Brimaz or something like that.
*Apologies for tossing up a list...I'm using that as a loose reference rather than "tell me if this is good". Thanks
If you want to beat delver and miracles I would suggest abrupt decay and i think engineered explosives is good vs both decks.
Between the infinite removal and souls I already feel favored vs Delver outside of RUG. I just don't think I would even want vial if I didn't have port.
True, sometimes you don't have bbbb. It needs additional attention while cracking fetchlands. But with SDTop and 4 shamans it is more or less ok for me. And the outcome is great. It is much stronger than Sorin against Punishing fires. Against Miracles Sorin is better, but still not a bomb.
I feel, that the Shardless match up is slightly in our favor pre board, and with the right SB it will be ok.
As for hymn, I would say, I like playing more copies to be able to cast it as early as possible. The spare copies can be discarded with Lili or put away with Top. A LOT of games I win with a simple strategy: hymn/seize opponents removal, than mystic into batterskull. Sometimes you just topdeck your discard in the late game and can't do anything about it, but hey, magic is a game of luck.
Back to miracles, it is very difficult to win a long grind against them. The souls are good, but too slow. The revokers are good, but very vulnerable without mother of runes. They can suffer some damage from our creatures, then wipe the board and assemble counter-top, which is a dead lock for this deck as far as we don't play decays. The SB needs some heavy bombs, not just revokers and choke. I am currently thinking about it.
Just to add: I tried aether vials in this deck. But it needs much more creatures with close manacosts to be worth it. Maybe with 4 spirits, 4 mothers, 4 revokers it would be good, but it is something different. Maybe just splash black in DnT? Or just play DnT?
Last edited by door; 09-09-2014 at 02:33 PM. Reason: added a thought on Vial
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Continuing some recent conversation:
If you're playing Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge, Lingering Souls, Liliana, and Abrupt Decay then you are very much favored against all Delver decks (BUG is the hardest).
Since I'm not playing Vindicate, I've been having a rough time with Miracles and would love to hear what you guys do about that deck.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Yea, I'll have to mull over Junk lists and true DGA setups.
Decay (BG) is pretty dirty right now ;) Unfortunately I want that on top of Avenger (WW)
Ehh, worst case I'll push a discard strategy and hope for the best lol. Thoughtseize, Hymn/Inquis, Lili, Bob + friends
Discard their removal into Bob or stoneforge is generally a fine strategy. That sequence alone can win a game.
Good cards vs miracles:
Sorin, Elspeth, Bitterblosom, Squadron Hawk.
I guess vial is a must when you want to play avengers. Now the only real question is : are <19 guys enough for a vial build to be successful ?
Ports has also a good synergy with vials. But I can see having issues while trying to mix up a good mana base with 8 lands that do produce no white nor black.
With vials, I would not play Lingering souls. My 3-CMC beater would have to be a creature type card.
Your sketch, as it is, seems to have a not so bad MU against delver decks.
If you want to improve your miracle/control MU, you could consider:
- phyrexian revoker
- hokori, dust drinker
- armageddon
It's been a very long time since armageddon was played MD.
Hokori is a plague, even more when protected by mom. But one could argue, why not just play Gaddock instead ? Oh well, there is *a lot* to take into consideration when building such a deck.
In the true beater category you have:
- Hero / Brimaz which comes down to personal preference & good testing. It is hard to say which one is better. But with vial and other 3-CMC target, I would blindly pick-up Brimaz for consistency purpose. Not to mention the psychological impact of vial @ 3 when playing white cards (who said flickerwisp shenanigans ?)
- Kotr -> I love the card but it does not belong to this kind of deck.
- Mirran/Phyrexian crusader. I already mentioned phyrexian in a post few pages ago, but no one seem to be interested. Well, this guy is really underestimated and one should pick up the appropriate one in its meta. Obviously, Mirran is better in a heavy B/G/X environment, otherwise, phyrexian is surely better (unfortunately not with mom). Protection from white & red is a big deal in legacy right now. in a build with x4 mom, I'll go with Mirran.
Winter Orb is another card that could be considered. When I saw GP Paris coverage, I saw Winter Orb and went "What? Is that what I think it is?". Back in the day I played Winter Orb and Relic Barrier. I also like Pithing Needle on top. Revoker is awesome too but Miracles can get rid of it much easier than Needle.
Cataclysm is another one, used mostly by Death and Taxes.
As far as Phyrexian Crusader is concerned. I considered it. It is a 5 turn clock that is immune to the best 2 one mana removal spells. Never tried it.
Use Pithing Needle to murder Top, then grind them out with creatures. If they can't reliably set up Terminus, it's REALLY tough for them.
My list that I've been playing with success is:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reanimate
1 Unearth
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Path to Exile
Obviously you need to tune your board. I've liked Stillmoon, even though he's a bit weak, since he's immune to Decay and STP. The Reanimate/Unearth is something I'm trying in this deck and another to see if it's a worthwhile inclusion. I've played Unearth before and it's been good, especially if you need to rebuy SFM or something. Reanimating a Tarmogoyf/TNN you've killed/discarded is also good news.
Feast and Famine is in over Batterskull since I have enough Tarmogoyf decks in the meta to warrant its inclusion. Being able to untap all my lands or chump Goyfs until I can answer it has been pretty good.
-Matt
Agreed on needle. It is the best tool to fight miracles imo. As is Sorin :p
Stillmoon was awesome the few times I actually got to cast him last time, but I think this time around I'm going to play a spirit if the lab in that slot so that I can access it post board against whatever combo deck via e tutor. Plus it randomly hoses elves or something sometimes.
I really don't think miracles is that bad... Souls plus walkers gives us so much recurring threats. You just gotta disrupt them a bit early and not let them assemble counter top when you have nothing on board because vindicate is a fairly reliable answer due to their lack of 3's.
Has anybody tested the interaction between Orzhov Pontiff and Flickerwisp in Vial builds?
Many creatures already fall to the -1/-1 effect. -2/-2 is a one-sided Wrath for a good chunk of the format.
I won an 8 man on MTGO with my list from my invi cashes. I think it's fine, but I still do not see how people think certain matches fall one way or the other. My one change has been -1 Maindeck Bob, -2 Sideboard Surgical Extraction, +1 Sideboard Zealous, +1 Sideboard Batterskull, +1 Maindeck Garruk Relentless. Seems fine. I just wanted more cards vs miracles and felt currently Surgical is less important than beefing up Elves match more. I won't be able to play this weekend in Atlanta because of school, but am confident if I did I would put up a result. Deck seems well positioned.
Timely Hordemate
3W
Creature -- Human Warrior
Raid -- When ~ ETB, if you attacked with a creature this turn, return target creature card with CMC 2 or less from your GY to the battlefield
3/2
It's in that awkward 4 mana region, but DGA has so many tasty targets that often eat early removal. SFM is the dream, but DRS & Bob are also good value, and having this in my deck would make me more likely to play Tidehollow Sculler as well. With Souls, it's likely you will have at least one creature to attack with on turn 4, and then you get two more.
Chief of the Edge
WB
Creature -- Human Warrior
Other Warrior creatures you control get +1/+0.
There aren't a ton of great Warriors in Legacy, but it might be worth paying attention to the tribe over the rest of this block to see if this could form an offshoot of DGA.
I am unsure if this is a Rock Deck or a deadguy ale deck. If I'm in the wrong thread just direct me.
Threats: 8
4 Serra Avenger
2 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom
1 Batterskull
Disruption: 6
4 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
Control: 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Utility: 8
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Draw Modifiers: 8
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Mana: 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Savannah
Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Council's Judgement
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
I'm bringing this to small event tomorrow. I'll let you guys know the results. I need help with it, but I'm not sure.
Etutor seems fairly mediocre here. I don't think you want deed in this deck. If you want some sort of effect like that, engineered explosives is probably what you are looking for.
The main goal of the deck is to have strong library manipulation to circumvent the main weaknesses of playing junk decks. The etutor has been invaluable in that role, but the numbers keep shifting between 3 and 2
I also used to use Engineered Explosives but Deed has been working a lot more reliably as a tutorable reset than explosives.
I will post my results of the tournament at eod for a more detailed description of what the deck does.
My thought towards playing a non blue deck is that I'd rather just try to win via raw card advantage rather than selection. That's really just my play style
Kinda panicking for tomorrow. Stuck on whether or not to play a Mirran Crusader or two, and if so, what to cut. Also trying to figure out exactly how to board against death and taxes. I have been bringing in Engineered Plague to have it on board to kill moms, Thalia, and the odd Mangara, but I'm not sure if it is worth it. I guess needle is probably fine to stop mom, port, karakas tricks, and vial. Definitely bringing in disenchant, but the last few times I've played against them, I've eaten a huge dick to Mirran Crusader. It's not worth it to board in Thalia just to block the damn thing is it?
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